Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 596306 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1890 on: July 31, 2015, 01:31:39 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Good read here by Jason McIntyre

http://thebiglead.com/2015/07/31/espn-nfl-criticism-simmons-goodell-mortensen/

An excerpt:

Quote
This all points to a troubling trend: While there’s no doubt the ESPN has an impressive stable of prize-winning and talented reporters, and “Outside the Lines” is a serious news show, there are more than a few examples over the last two years of the NFL attempting to stifle high-profile criticism (see Simmons, Olbermann), and allegedly leaking information to further an agenda (see Mortensen, Smith) at the most powerful sports media entity on the planet.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1891 on: July 31, 2015, 02:48:45 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Nope it's because I actually have read everything including both court filings and the report cover to back.  I suggest you do the same.  He devil is in the details, regardless of he nfl wanting to reduce it to headlines.

And you and other Patriots fans have interpreted it the way you (plural) wanted. I've seen those interpretations in this thread. They're quite amusing.

Evidence is that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

If you have yet to see any - as per your assertion - then you simply don't understand the word. You may not believe such evidence; you may think that the evidence gathered is sufficient enough to warrant the punishment; you may be swayed by other evidence that refutes the assertions in the Wells report; but in the end there is evidence - a considerable amount in fact -  that the Patriots and Tom Brady conspired to cheat by deflating footballs.

I'm a New England sports fan. But I also believe in playing by the rules. I think the preponderance of the evidence suggest that the Patriots didn't play by the rules and quite possibly "won" another tainted Super Bowl because they cheated (again). At this point, the Patriots can enjoy the rings but history will always remember that they were "won" because they were cheating (hence the quotes). That's sad. What's worse is that I find the excuses made by the fans just as sad. The ends do not justify the means.

Now, back to the points at hand. I said that Kraft would accept his penalty. He did. I said Brady would get suspended. He did. Now I am saying I think Brady will lose in court. And should he do so, I think that will reflect poorly on his legacy. He could have meekly taken the penalty without admitting his guilt and he probably would have had his penalty reduced to two games. He would have gotten a pass for just being a team player and "taking one for the team". This saga would be over and done with. And frankly with a weak AFC East the Patriots could have gotten by without him for two games. But by fighting this, he creates a disruption for the team and uncertainty going into the season. Should he lose - which I think is the more likely scenario - he hurts the team and his own legacy far worse than he would have otherwise. If Brady loses in court, the Patriots start out 1-3 and end up missing the playoffs at 9-7 or 10-6, his image in Boston will never be the same.

No offense here, but I highly doubt you are a NE Patriots fan, because if you were, you would not make that statement.  Don't need to be to express your opinions, but when you said you are a New England sports fan, does that include the Pats?  Or are you being cute with your language??

How does this make any sense? Granath is qualifying his statement by saying that he's a Patriots fan -- in essence avoiding the particular critique that you are making of his post.

I feel like knowing where posters stand relative to the Pats is fairly important to how you contribute to this conversation. For example both eja and Donghus's contributions are undoubtedly colored by the fact that they're Pats fans, whereas I am gleefully indifferent to the Patriots (and NFL teams in general). That doesn't do anything to affect the validity of anyone's statements, though.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1892 on: July 31, 2015, 03:01:53 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Nope it's because I actually have read everything including both court filings and the report cover to back.  I suggest you do the same.  He devil is in the details, regardless of he nfl wanting to reduce it to headlines.

And you and other Patriots fans have interpreted it the way you (plural) wanted. I've seen those interpretations in this thread. They're quite amusing.

Evidence is that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

If you have yet to see any - as per your assertion - then you simply don't understand the word. You may not believe such evidence; you may think that the evidence gathered is sufficient enough to warrant the punishment; you may be swayed by other evidence that refutes the assertions in the Wells report; but in the end there is evidence - a considerable amount in fact -  that the Patriots and Tom Brady conspired to cheat by deflating footballs.

I'm a New England sports fan. But I also believe in playing by the rules. I think the preponderance of the evidence suggest that the Patriots didn't play by the rules and quite possibly "won" another tainted Super Bowl because they cheated (again). At this point, the Patriots can enjoy the rings but history will always remember that they were "won" because they were cheating (hence the quotes). That's sad. What's worse is that I find the excuses made by the fans just as sad. The ends do not justify the means.

Now, back to the points at hand. I said that Kraft would accept his penalty. He did. I said Brady would get suspended. He did. Now I am saying I think Brady will lose in court. And should he do so, I think that will reflect poorly on his legacy. He could have meekly taken the penalty without admitting his guilt and he probably would have had his penalty reduced to two games. He would have gotten a pass for just being a team player and "taking one for the team". This saga would be over and done with. And frankly with a weak AFC East the Patriots could have gotten by without him for two games. But by fighting this, he creates a disruption for the team and uncertainty going into the season. Should he lose - which I think is the more likely scenario - he hurts the team and his own legacy far worse than he would have otherwise. If Brady loses in court, the Patriots start out 1-3 and end up missing the playoffs at 9-7 or 10-6, his image in Boston will never be the same.

No offense here, but I highly doubt you are a NE Patriots fan, because if you were, you would not make that statement.  Don't need to be to express your opinions, but when you said you are a New England sports fan, does that include the Pats?  Or are you being cute with your language??

How does this make any sense? Granath is qualifying his statement by saying that he's a Patriots fan -- in essence avoiding the particular critique that you are making of his post.

I feel like knowing where posters stand relative to the Pats is fairly important to how you contribute to this conversation. For example both eja and Donghus's contributions are undoubtedly colored by the fact that they're Pats fans, whereas I am gleefully indifferent to the Patriots (and NFL teams in general). That doesn't do anything to affect the validity of anyone's statements, though.

I hate the Patriots and dislike Brady. This whole destroying of the cell phone business and the focus it has brought to this discussion has been complete BS though.

And an aside for Granath, you believe in playing by the rules, so do I , at the same time the League is also at the disposition of said rules, not above them. So we can't have double standards there. If the League doesn't have grounds to punish teams/Brady, and also to the extent that it's doing so, then you should be against the Goodell's ruling as well... since for all apparent purposes, the League is not playing by the rules and in accordance to the parameters set by the CBA.

So in all of this, for all the purists about playing by the rules, don't selectively close your other eye from the opposing side of the argument.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1893 on: July 31, 2015, 03:21:41 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If there's no possible punishment for not cooperating with an investigation, why would anyone ever cooperate with one? Why wouldn't Kraft have just told everyone associated with the team to ignore any queries into deflategate if there was no penalty for doing so? Isn't he smart enough to think of things like that?
I don't know, how do we get anyone convicted in a court of law when they're allowed to refuse to give self-incriminating testimony?

  Frequently by forcing the suspects to turn over their personal property by obtaining warrants. Or by giving some people immunity and compelling them to testify against others. You know, things these investigators had no power to do.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1894 on: July 31, 2015, 03:24:20 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Except there is. Some Patriots fans like to throw out words like "unprecedented" when it's clearly not.



Name me a single instance of a player being suspended for failure to cooperate with a league investigation, or "general awareness"of misconduct by other people in his organization.

What's more, point to the specific rule that Brady has supposedly violated due to his supposed "failure to cooperate" and his "general awareness" of wrongdoing.

I think you'll find that there is no specific language in the CBA to describe the conduct for which Brady is being punished.  That's a problem for the league, because a disciplinary decision has to be based upon the essence of the CBA, otherwise the players didn't really ever agree to be bound in that way and the league has no power to enforce it.

  If there's no possible punishment for not cooperating with an investigation, why would anyone ever cooperate with one? Why wouldn't Kraft have just told everyone associated with the team to ignore any queries into deflategate if there was no penalty for doing so? Isn't he smart enough to think of things like that?

If the NFL wanted to have a clearly defined punishment for failure to cooperate they should have bargained for one.

Also,  if the punishment were based on lack of cooperation that needed to be stated clearly from the initial issuance of the punishment.   Not going in that direction once it becomes clear that there's little basis for the original accusation.

  You're saying that the league never said anything about Brady being uncooperative or less than forthright when they originally suspended him? That's not what I recall.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1895 on: July 31, 2015, 03:36:09 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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If there's no possible punishment for not cooperating with an investigation, why would anyone ever cooperate with one? Why wouldn't Kraft have just told everyone associated with the team to ignore any queries into deflategate if there was no penalty for doing so? Isn't he smart enough to think of things like that?
I don't know, how do we get anyone convicted in a court of law when they're allowed to refuse to give self-incriminating testimony?

  Frequently by forcing the suspects to turn over their personal property by obtaining warrants. Or by giving some people immunity and compelling them to testify against others. You know, things these investigators had no power to do.

No power, and more importantly, NO RIGHT to do.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1896 on: July 31, 2015, 03:51:52 PM »

Offline BballTim

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https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/7.29.15%20petition%20to%20vacate.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/28/brady-offered-to-help-nfl-gather-missing-text-messages/


Heres a few good reads for anyone posting in this thread.

There are many problems with the deflategate report.

In terms of the court of public opinion, It all starts with the "loaded question" logical fallicy. The very first question should have been 1. "were the balls deflated." If yes, the next question should have been 2. "were the balls deflated naturally, accidentally, or intentionally." If intentionally, then "3.  Who did the deflating, and how." Then 4. "why, at whose direction."

Unfortunately, it is utterly obvious that in the public discourse, the very first question asked was "who illegally deflated the balls for Brady?" If that is the first question asked, it is nearly impossie for the average person to have a rational debate about it.

In terms of the questions above:
1. Probably deflated.
However, as even the scientific firm who concluded that the balls were deflated acknowledges in a footnote of the Wells report, their findings are based on several assumptions, and changing any of the assumptions would nullify their conclusions. Additionally, the new ball security rules clearly show that there was never any way to determine dedlation since there was never any protocol for recording the ball pressures in a standardized way or recording the factors that would affect ball pressure (room temp, game temp, humidity, whose balls you measure first when you bring them back into a warm room; the balls measured last will warm up more and read higher pressures.) additionally, also glossed over in the Wells report, the ref thought that he used a particular gauge at halftime. If you use that gauge's halftime measurements, the average PSI is legal. So even this basic initial fundamental question is actually mot firm.

2. If deflated, probably natural. Several random people, from scientists to students, have performed experiments and mathematics to show that the pats balls decreased by an expected amount. As above, even the company hired by the nfl stated that their findings rested upon many assumptions, wgich, if any were wrong, could change their conclusions. Furthermore, it became clear that the NFL:
1. Had no standard by which to test balls mid game.
2. Had no rules or even thoughts regarding natural pressure deflation during game conditions, only rules about the pre game weigh in parameters.

3+4. From the above two questions, it never should have progressed to this question. But even so, the question was not "did someone deflate the balls and if so, who?", the question was "how did these guys deflate the balls for brady?"

  I think that much of the investigation was based on guesswork and not concrete proof. The fact that the balls were less deflated when they were re-measured doesn't prove that they were deflated, it just shows that they might have been. In other words, if they weren't below the specified range the case would have ended there.

  The next question is, were the balls actually deflated or was it a natural phenomenon? Again, no direct evidence, but (while I haven't followed the case as closely as some), I think you have to consider all of the texts about needles, referring to someone as the deflator, or the balls having an undesired amount of air in them if the proper bribes aren't exchanged. It seems pretty hard to combine the under-inflated balls and the texts about under-inflating the balls and come to the conclusion that it's unlikely anything untoward happened.

Once you look at the evidence from that perspective, every small thing becomes proof to fit that conclusion, despite any alternative explanations. None of the texts, if you read without knowing about deflategate, would lead you to say "hey, these guys are talking about deflating game balls because Brady wants them to!" The huge elephant in the room is actually, given the number of texts, the incredible LACK of texts mentioning any plot to deflate footballs for Brady, let alone Brady's awareness of a plot.

  I thought there were clearly texts mentioning a plot to deflate balls and texts that implied Brady knew what was happening. And he'd have to be the primary reason the balls were deflated. There's literally no other motive for doing so other than the deflated balls being what Brady preferred.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 04:13:19 PM by BballTim »

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1897 on: July 31, 2015, 03:53:46 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If there's no possible punishment for not cooperating with an investigation, why would anyone ever cooperate with one? Why wouldn't Kraft have just told everyone associated with the team to ignore any queries into deflategate if there was no penalty for doing so? Isn't he smart enough to think of things like that?
I don't know, how do we get anyone convicted in a court of law when they're allowed to refuse to give self-incriminating testimony?

  Frequently by forcing the suspects to turn over their personal property by obtaining warrants. Or by giving some people immunity and compelling them to testify against others. You know, things these investigators had no power to do.

No power, and more importantly, NO RIGHT to do.

  Obviously the nfl investigators don't have the power or the right to do so. But, again, if there's no punishment whatsoever for not cooperating with an investigation, why would anyone ever cooperate with one?

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1898 on: July 31, 2015, 04:26:58 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm for playing by the rules and think that enough has been shown over all this time to suggest that the Pats were probably doing something with the balls, but nothing that had any noticeable affect on the outcome of a game.

I also think the rule the Patriots are alleged to have violated is one that was not consistently or seriously enforced prior to a complaint raised by a recently defeated opponent of the Patriots.

Based on all of that, I think the Patriots deserve to receive a punishment consistent with prior league rulings and the letter and spirit of the rules found in the CBA and league conduct policy.


Which is to say, the Pats should have been fined.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1899 on: July 31, 2015, 04:30:48 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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If there's no possible punishment for not cooperating with an investigation, why would anyone ever cooperate with one? Why wouldn't Kraft have just told everyone associated with the team to ignore any queries into deflategate if there was no penalty for doing so? Isn't he smart enough to think of things like that?
I don't know, how do we get anyone convicted in a court of law when they're allowed to refuse to give self-incriminating testimony?

  Frequently by forcing the suspects to turn over their personal property by obtaining warrants. Or by giving some people immunity and compelling them to testify against others. You know, things these investigators had no power to do.

No power, and more importantly, NO RIGHT to do.

To underscore here -- the NFL has no right or power to do those things because they failed to bargain for that power in the most recent CBA.  If the NFL wants to be able to compel players to turn over evidence and punish them for failure to comply with such requests, they need to bargain for it.

The only reason the NFL has a right to punish players at all is because of the authority in the CBA.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1900 on: July 31, 2015, 04:56:53 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1901 on: July 31, 2015, 05:09:24 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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http://wellsreportcontext.com/league-failure-to-correct-misinformation/

I don't understand how the NFL front office telling lies that harm a team and HOF player (or any player) and refusing to correct those lies isn't a bigger story.  Nor do I understand how so many people after seeing these lies give the league more credibility than a player with no history of that kind of behavior.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1902 on: July 31, 2015, 05:11:41 PM »

Offline footey

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Nope it's because I actually have read everything including both court filings and the report cover to back.  I suggest you do the same.  He devil is in the details, regardless of he nfl wanting to reduce it to headlines.

And you and other Patriots fans have interpreted it the way you (plural) wanted. I've seen those interpretations in this thread. They're quite amusing.

Evidence is that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

If you have yet to see any - as per your assertion - then you simply don't understand the word. You may not believe such evidence; you may think that the evidence gathered is sufficient enough to warrant the punishment; you may be swayed by other evidence that refutes the assertions in the Wells report; but in the end there is evidence - a considerable amount in fact -  that the Patriots and Tom Brady conspired to cheat by deflating footballs.

I'm a New England sports fan. But I also believe in playing by the rules. I think the preponderance of the evidence suggest that the Patriots didn't play by the rules and quite possibly "won" another tainted Super Bowl because they cheated (again). At this point, the Patriots can enjoy the rings but history will always remember that they were "won" because they were cheating (hence the quotes). That's sad. What's worse is that I find the excuses made by the fans just as sad. The ends do not justify the means.

Now, back to the points at hand. I said that Kraft would accept his penalty. He did. I said Brady would get suspended. He did. Now I am saying I think Brady will lose in court. And should he do so, I think that will reflect poorly on his legacy. He could have meekly taken the penalty without admitting his guilt and he probably would have had his penalty reduced to two games. He would have gotten a pass for just being a team player and "taking one for the team". This saga would be over and done with. And frankly with a weak AFC East the Patriots could have gotten by without him for two games. But by fighting this, he creates a disruption for the team and uncertainty going into the season. Should he lose - which I think is the more likely scenario - he hurts the team and his own legacy far worse than he would have otherwise. If Brady loses in court, the Patriots start out 1-3 and end up missing the playoffs at 9-7 or 10-6, his image in Boston will never be the same.

No offense here, but I highly doubt you are a NE Patriots fan, because if you were, you would not make that statement.  Don't need to be to express your opinions, but when you said you are a New England sports fan, does that include the Pats?  Or are you being cute with your language??

How does this make any sense? Granath is qualifying his statement by saying that he's a Patriots fan -- in essence avoiding the particular critique that you are making of his post.

I feel like knowing where posters stand relative to the Pats is fairly important to how you contribute to this conversation. For example both eja and Donghus's contributions are undoubtedly colored by the fact that they're Pats fans, whereas I am gleefully indifferent to the Patriots (and NFL teams in general). That doesn't do anything to affect the validity of anyone's statements, though.

He said he was a New England sports fan, not a Patriots fan.  A Boston Celtic fan is a New England sports fan.  The fact that he was put much stock on the Wells Report; I just don't know anyone who looks at it critically--and every Pats fan I know has---would give it as much credence as he does in his comments.

 But my comment was reactive, did not add to the dialogue/debate. I probably should not have even made the point. Apologies to Granath for even going there. It doesn't matter whether he is a Pats fan or not.

Man, I am so messed up about Deflategate!!!

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1903 on: July 31, 2015, 05:21:39 PM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Do people still think Brady was innocent in this whole thing or that nothing ever happened?

The only thing that should be contested is the penalty being too harsh but Brady does deserve some kind of penalty.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1904 on: July 31, 2015, 05:23:02 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
To underscore here -- the NFL has no right or power to do those things because they failed to bargain for that power in the most recent CBA.  If the NFL wants to be able to compel players to turn over evidence and punish them for failure to comply with such requests, they need to bargain for it.

For not having power, it seems they made an example of Brady pretty much at will.   I know Kraft is mad, but face it, a lot of owners probably love watching him squirm, and I see them backing Goodell who serves at all the owners behest.   The Pats are generally seen as cheaters who got away with it, recall the play stealing scandal perhaps?   I live well outside of Boston and people here in Cincinnati are loving it and posting stuff on facebook about how great it was Brady got caught, being a C's fan I kind of like the Pats, I defintely do not like the Bungles (Bengals).

But I still the NFL as a whole as a lot more powerful than you.   They are not bound by law.   They can do whatever they want as long as the owners stick together.