Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 596280 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1830 on: July 30, 2015, 01:33:14 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The biggest issue for Brady may be time.  There probably isn't time to get an injunction soon enough to make playing in the season opener a reality, and total resolution via a court battle may take months.
Trial will resume Aug 13, so I don't think timing will be a concern.

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1831 on: July 30, 2015, 01:42:33 PM »

Online Donoghus

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The biggest issue for Brady may be time.  There probably isn't time to get an injunction soon enough to make playing in the season opener a reality, and total resolution via a court battle may take months.
Trial will resume Aug 13, so I don't think timing will be a concern.

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1832 on: July 30, 2015, 01:42:54 PM »

Online Roy H.

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To me, the biggest aspect of Brady's challenge is that there is simply no precedent for applying the rules to a player as the NFL has done in this situation, nor is there precedent for punishing such an offense with a suspension as opposed to fines. 

I would agree that this is the crux of the case, if it's challenged on the merits.  However, I'm not sure that the Court reaches the merits, in deference to the arbitrator's final power to render decisions.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1833 on: July 30, 2015, 02:06:41 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Isn't Forbes a fairly pro-business source?  I wouldn't trust them to not be NFL-biased.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/07/27/tom-brady-nflpa-deflategate-suspension-federal-court

I trust Michael McCann's analysis.  He makes it sound like Brady has a fairly strong case, though parts of it would rely on things that are relatively hard to prove in court (e.g. leaks to the media).

The biggest issue for Brady may be time.  There probably isn't time to get an injunction soon enough to make playing in the season opener a reality, and total resolution via a court battle may take months.  The risk of having to serve part or all of the 4 game suspension late in the season when the Pats are pushing for the playoffs (or IN the playoffs) seems high.

To me, the biggest aspect of Brady's challenge is that there is simply no precedent for applying the rules to a player as the NFL has done in this situation, nor is there precedent for punishing such an offense with a suspension as opposed to fines.  Too much of the NFL's discipline in this case is based on extremely broad interpretations of the language in the CBA and the NFL's conduct code.

Sure, that's true, but it remains a good read nonetheless.
For example, in regards to the injunction:

Quote
  Brady may not have much trouble is in demonstrating that it is less harmful for the NFL if a court of law allows him to play (temporarily) than if he is forced to sit, and that it is in the public’s interest that Brady be on the field (unless you are a fan of the New York Jets or Miami Dolphins).  The more problematic point for Brady to prove is that he has a likelihood of success on the merits (the following sections flesh that out a bit).  The toughest obstacle for Brady is that he must show that he is likely to be irreparably harmed if he is forced to sit out four games.

Can Brady be adequately compensated by monetary damages if the NFL’s final decision is vacated?  Brady is missing four games and four pay checks.  The calculation is quite easy.  Meanwhile, his body will not take any devastating blows for those four games.  Furthermore, he is inching toward the end of his career and benching Brady should have no effect on his future contractual negotiations.  Thus, if the NFL’s final decision is vacated and Brady is paid the monies missed for those four games on the bench, then how is he not adequately compensated for the harm that was caused by the final decision?  This alone could be the impetus for a court denying a motion for preliminary injunction.


Again, I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a reasoned way of looking at the situation that explains itself.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1834 on: July 30, 2015, 02:10:55 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Isn't Forbes a fairly pro-business source?  I wouldn't trust them to not be NFL-biased.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/07/27/tom-brady-nflpa-deflategate-suspension-federal-court

I trust Michael McCann's analysis.  He makes it sound like Brady has a fairly strong case, though parts of it would rely on things that are relatively hard to prove in court (e.g. leaks to the media).

The biggest issue for Brady may be time.  There probably isn't time to get an injunction soon enough to make playing in the season opener a reality, and total resolution via a court battle may take months.  The risk of having to serve part or all of the 4 game suspension late in the season when the Pats are pushing for the playoffs (or IN the playoffs) seems high.

To me, the biggest aspect of Brady's challenge is that there is simply no precedent for applying the rules to a player as the NFL has done in this situation, nor is there precedent for punishing such an offense with a suspension as opposed to fines.  Too much of the NFL's discipline in this case is based on extremely broad interpretations of the language in the CBA and the NFL's conduct code.

Sure, that's true, but it remains a good read nonetheless.
For example, in regards to the injunction:

Quote
  Brady may not have much trouble is in demonstrating that it is less harmful for the NFL if a court of law allows him to play (temporarily) than if he is forced to sit, and that it is in the public’s interest that Brady be on the field (unless you are a fan of the New York Jets or Miami Dolphins).  The more problematic point for Brady to prove is that he has a likelihood of success on the merits (the following sections flesh that out a bit).  The toughest obstacle for Brady is that he must show that he is likely to be irreparably harmed if he is forced to sit out four games.

Can Brady be adequately compensated by monetary damages if the NFL’s final decision is vacated?  Brady is missing four games and four pay checks.  The calculation is quite easy.  Meanwhile, his body will not take any devastating blows for those four games.  Furthermore, he is inching toward the end of his career and benching Brady should have no effect on his future contractual negotiations.  Thus, if the NFL’s final decision is vacated and Brady is paid the monies missed for those four games on the bench, then how is he not adequately compensated for the harm that was caused by the final decision?  This alone could be the impetus for a court denying a motion for preliminary injunction.


Again, I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a reasoned way of looking at the situation that explains itself.
Sorry, you're forcing a competitive athlete to sit out 4 games and have trouble explaining how this will cause him irreparable harm? You must be a special kind of buffoon to think this reduces to money and hits to the head.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1835 on: July 30, 2015, 02:14:18 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Sorry Koz, no capacity to defend an article I didn't write by somebody I don't know today. Apologies.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1836 on: July 30, 2015, 02:23:27 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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To me, the biggest aspect of Brady's challenge is that there is simply no precedent for applying the rules to a player as the NFL has done in this situation, nor is there precedent for punishing such an offense with a suspension as opposed to fines. 

I would agree that this is the crux of the case, if it's challenged on the merits.  However, I'm not sure that the Court reaches the merits, in deference to the arbitrator's final power to render decisions.


As I understand it, the court can look to the "law of the shop" and "industrial common law" in determining whether an award was made within the powers of the arbitrator, i.e. plausibly construing the CBA.

That includes prior arbitration awards.

Has a player ever been punished for his awareness of the actions of other members of his organization?  Is there any precedent whatsoever for a punishment like this for failure to cooperate with an investigation? 

I think the answer in both cases is no.


I may be wrong, but I don't think the court has to stop the analysis even if it determines Goodell was impartial and he decided on the matter that was put before him.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1837 on: July 30, 2015, 02:25:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Again, I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a reasoned way of looking at the situation that explains itself.

I know it's not your article, but I'm going to disagree about your assessment.

Not getting to play in four games of a professional football season, given the effect it could have on the team's record, Brady's career and legacy, and so on . . . it's exceedingly easy to argue that there are all sorts of harm to Brady that is not legally compensable (i.e. you can't put a dollar value on it).

No amount of money will give Brady a chance to play in the post-season this year if the Pats go 0-4 when he sits out, for example.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1838 on: July 30, 2015, 02:31:42 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I assume everyone has seen the Post piece by now?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html

I am curious about thit part:
Quote
Wells never asked for Tom Brady’s cell phone, and didn’t require it. “Keep the phone,” Wells told Brady and his agent. He insisted that his investigation was thorough without it. “I don’t think it undermines in any way the conclusions of the report,” he said. Those were his exact words. So were these, after interrogating Brady for more than five hours: “Totally cooperative,” Wells said of Brady’s testimony.

I know it's a perhaps a somewhat fictionalized account of the exchange, but where does the information that (1) Wells told Brady to keep his phone, and (2) the "Totally cooperative" comment come from? That's the first time I see these cited.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1839 on: July 30, 2015, 02:34:47 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I assume everyone has seen the Post piece by now?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html

I am curious about thit part:
Quote
Wells never asked for Tom Brady’s cell phone, and didn’t require it. “Keep the phone,” Wells told Brady and his agent. He insisted that his investigation was thorough without it. “I don’t think it undermines in any way the conclusions of the report,” he said. Those were his exact words. So were these, after interrogating Brady for more than five hours: “Totally cooperative,” Wells said of Brady’s testimony.

I know it's a perhaps a somewhat fictionalized account of the exchange, but where does the information that (1) Wells told Brady to keep his phone, and (2) the "Totally cooperative" comment come from? That's the first time I see these cited.

Yeah, it's strange to throw that in there without any source cited, considering that it flatly contradicts much of what the NFL has put out there recently.


Quote
Wasn’t it Brady himself who voluntarily disclosed he got rid of his old cell and upgraded? Does it really make sense that Brady would intentionally destroy a phone it was agreed he wasn’t obliged to turn over?

This is a really excellent point.  Why are we even hearing about the destroyed cell-phone?  Because Brady told the league he destroyed it.

If he were covering his tracks, why not just refuse to produce the cell-phone and leave it at that?

Unless Brady were anticipating litigation all the way back in January and destroyed the phone so that it couldn't be the subject of a discovery request.  That seems unlikely.

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1840 on: July 30, 2015, 02:41:08 PM »

Offline Jon

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I don't get the phone thing. What exactly are they looking for?

I think most people think he destroyed it to keep the NFL from seeing what he said to the locker room guys, but the NFL already has all that stuff from their phones.

So what are they looking for, a comment he said after the fact to Giselle, BB, Kraft, or his dad?  And if that type of material is fair game, why isn't Goodell's private texts and emails also up for discussion so we can see how he handled everything with his inner council and others?

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1841 on: July 30, 2015, 02:46:36 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't get the phone thing. What exactly are they looking for?

I think most people think he destroyed it to keep the NFL from seeing what he said to the locker room guys, but the NFL already has all that stuff from their phones.

So what are they looking for, a comment he said after the fact to Giselle, BB, Kraft, or his dad?  And if that type of material is fair game, why isn't Goodell's private texts and emails also up for discussion so we can see how he handled everything with his inner council and others?

I wouldn't be surprised if the big prize they're after is communications about the balls between Brady and Bill.

But they're also looking for direct communications from Brady's end telling the ball attendants to work on the balls.  Without that, all they have is Brady's "general awareness" based on the conversations that the ball attendants had with one another.

You're right though, they have the ball attendant's phones, so I'm not sure why they think they'd find something new on Brady's phone.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1842 on: July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't get the phone thing. What exactly are they looking for?

I think most people think he destroyed it to keep the NFL from seeing what he said to the locker room guys, but the NFL already has all that stuff from their phones. They also had the attendants' phones, from which it was evident there wasn't any direct communication.

So what are they looking for, a comment he said after the fact to Giselle, BB, Kraft, or his dad?  And if that type of material is fair game, why isn't Goodell's private texts and emails also up for discussion so we can see how he handled everything with his inner council and others?

I wouldn't be surprised if the big prize they're after is communications about the balls between Brady and Bill.

But they're also looking for direct communications from Brady's end telling the ball attendants to work on the balls.  Without that, all they have is Brady's "general awareness" based on the conversations that the ball attendants had with one another.

You're right though, they have the ball attendant's phones, so I'm not sure why they think they'd find something new on Brady's phone.
The problem is Kraft said Wells had access to all personnel phones he asked for, including Bill's. So that one doesn't hold water.

Kessler floated something today about the League saying that they "wanted to perhaps see an email from Brady to his father that may be relevant". Can't see how this is acceptable.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1843 on: July 30, 2015, 02:52:57 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The problem is Kraft said Wells had access to all personnel phones he asked for, including Bill's. So that one doesn't hold water.

Kessler floated something today about the League saying that they "wanted to perhaps see an email from Brady to his father that may be relevant". Can't see how this is acceptable.

Yeah I'm at a loss then.

I think the article is spot on, it's just moving the goal-posts.  The NFL didn't really need Brady's phone, which is why it wasn't an issue before.  But now they know they can make Brady look guilty in the public eye by releasing the information that he destroyed the phone, so of course that's what they do.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1844 on: July 30, 2015, 02:53:26 PM »

Offline dreamgreen

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The NFL should be ashamed of themselves! They are trying to burn their poster child can you imagine the NBA doing this to Lebron? ???

Heads should roll in the front office, it is clear RG is a train wreck and has no idea Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. he is doing! >:(