Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 596240 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1665 on: July 28, 2015, 05:05:38 PM »

Offline colincb

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double post
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 08:40:03 PM by colincb »

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1666 on: July 28, 2015, 05:08:35 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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People are STILL talking about this?  Wow.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1667 on: July 28, 2015, 05:09:15 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The statement from the league...

“On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed,” the league statement read. “He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. ?During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady.”

This is really hurts Brady in my opinion...again, what he actually did isn't that big of a deal in terms of on the field help in winning games, but the optics of this are NOT good for Brady.  For me this shows me that Brady had to choose the lesser of two evils...he obviously felt that getting heat for destroying his phone wouldn't be as bad as getting heat for what was actually on the phone

I'm not turning over my PRIVATE cell phone just so that some league investigator can take a peak at some selective messages.

Sorry, but I'd do the same whether I was guilty or not, doubly so if I was a celebrity / public figure.

We'll see them in Federal court, things should get interesting.
Yeah... there's a number of reasons I'd destroy my cell phone rather than let it be analyzed by a third party.  None of these reasons are related to deflating footballs.


Brady supposedly texts a lot. I can easily imagine that there are texts he'd rather not get leaked and the the NFL's promise that his texts wouldn't get leaked is laughable. Besides, they had an air tight investigative report and the employees' phones.

This is all back-pedaling because the Wells Report is so blatantly flawed that it looks like a frame job and credible researchers are calling them on it. Forget the science, the first thing you do in a statistical study is look at the completeness and accuracy of the data and you never, ever use the data from one source in a selective manner as they did with the chief referee. The guys who did the report aren't stupid, but hacks they are. They were told what conclusion to reach. It wasn't the first time that the firm put out a report like this that requires a informed reader to suspend belief.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/18/business/la-fi-toyota-exponent18-2010feb18

Quote
When some of the world's best-known companies faced disputes over secondhand smoke, toxic waste in the jungle and asbestos, they all turned to the same source for a staunch defense: Exponent Inc.

Now that same engineering and consulting firm has been hired by Toyota Motor Corp. as it seeks to fend off claims that sudden acceleration in its vehicles could be caused by problems in its electronic throttle systems.

A 56-page report that Menlo Park, Calif.-based Exponent sent to Congress on Feb. 9 found that the system behaved as intended and that Exponent was "unable to induce . . . unintended acceleration or behavior that might be a precursor to such an event."

But Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense.

"If I were Toyota, I wouldn't have picked somebody like Exponent to do analysis," said Stanton Glantz, a cardiologist at UC San Francisco who runs a database on the tobacco industry that contains thousands of pages of Exponent research arguing, among other things, that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. "I would have picked a firm with more of a reputation of neutrality."

Mike Gaulke, executive chairman of Exponent and an employee of the company since 1992, called critiques that it produced only favorable research a "cheap shot."

"Do we tell our clients a lot of what they don't want to hear? Absolutely," Gaulke said.

He said the firm often comes up with results that don't favor clients, although he couldn't provide specific examples.

The bolded part you just quoted is my boss. He is about 100 feet away from me in his office right now.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1668 on: July 28, 2015, 05:16:31 PM »

Online Donoghus

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People are STILL talking about this?  Wow.

You do understand there was a rather significant development in this today, right?  ::)


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1669 on: July 28, 2015, 05:35:20 PM »

Offline footey

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I'd love to give Brady the benefit of the doubt, but this privacy defense is garbage.  He knew the NFL wanted the phone. He could have put it in a safe deposit box or with his attorney, to ensure safe keeping. To destroy it because that is what he normally does?  Right before his giving testimony?  Completely disingenuous.  I feel like a big fool for being such a strong defender of his integrity and position throughout deflate gate. But this is the breaking point.

Very disillusioned here.  And disappointed.  There are no hero's in sports, it seems.  Even Tom Brady destroys the evidence, and acts like it is a normal thing to do.  I just won't buy that spin.

Worst part is I have to listen to the Mike Francessa's, the Dan Shaughnessy's, and the Ron Borges' blow hards say "I told you so, he cheated, and tried to cover it up." 

Ughh.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1670 on: July 28, 2015, 05:40:16 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I'd love to give Brady the benefit of the doubt, but this privacy defense is garbage.  He knew the NFL wanted the phone. He could have put it in a safe deposit box or with his attorney, to ensure safe keeping. To destroy it because that is what he normally does?  Right before his giving testimony?  Completely disingenuous.  I feel like a big fool for being such a strong defender of his integrity and position throughout deflate gate. But this is the breaking point.

Very disillusioned here.  And disappointed.  There are no hero's in sports, it seems.  Even Tom Brady destroys the evidence, and acts like it is a normal thing to do.  I just won't buy that spin.

Worst part is I have to listen to the Mike Francessa's, the Dan Shaughnessy's, and the Ron Borges' blow hards say "I told you so, he cheated, and tried to cover it up." 

Ughh.

I partly feel this way, but also party feel that I can understand where Brady could be coming from. With the amount of leaks and misinformation that have come out of the NFL front office and the Ted Wells investigation I can see him being reluctant to trust them that information would not be leaked or taken out of context if he turned over his phone.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1671 on: July 28, 2015, 05:45:17 PM »

Online Donoghus

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And the NFLPA response

Quote
?@NFLPA
#NFLPA Statement on Tom Brady's Four-Game Suspension: http://bit.ly/1OzTQhw

Quote
NFLPA STATEMENT ON TOM BRADY'S FOUR-GAME SUSPENSION

The Commissioner's ruling today did nothing to address the legal deficiencies of due process. The NFL remains stuck with the following facts:

The NFL had no policy that applied to players;
The NFL provided no notice of any such policy or potential discipline to players;
The NFL resorted to a nebulous standard of "general awareness" to predicate a legally unjustified punishment;
The NFL had no procedures in place until two days ago to test air pressure in footballs; and
The NFL violated the plain meaning of the collective bargaining agreement.
The fact that the NFL would resort to basing a suspension on a smoke screen of irrelevant text messages instead of admitting that they have all of the phone records they asked for is a new low, even for them, but it does nothing to correct their errors.

The NFLPA will appeal this outrageous decision on behalf of Tom Brady.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1672 on: July 28, 2015, 05:47:58 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Supposedly NFLPA plans to file in Minnesota tomorrow per @RapSheet


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1673 on: July 28, 2015, 05:56:39 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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And the NFLPA response

Quote
?@NFLPA
#NFLPA Statement on Tom Brady's Four-Game Suspension: http://bit.ly/1OzTQhw

Quote
NFLPA STATEMENT ON TOM BRADY'S FOUR-GAME SUSPENSION

The Commissioner's ruling today did nothing to address the legal deficiencies of due process. The NFL remains stuck with the following facts:

The NFL had no policy that applied to players;
The NFL provided no notice of any such policy or potential discipline to players;
The NFL resorted to a nebulous standard of "general awareness" to predicate a legally unjustified punishment;
The NFL had no procedures in place until two days ago to test air pressure in footballs; and
The NFL violated the plain meaning of the collective bargaining agreement.
The fact that the NFL would resort to basing a suspension on a smoke screen of irrelevant text messages instead of admitting that they have all of the phone records they asked for is a new low, even for them, but it does nothing to correct their errors.

The NFLPA will appeal this outrageous decision on behalf of Tom Brady.

!!!
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1674 on: July 28, 2015, 06:14:28 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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And the NFLPA response

Quote
?@NFLPA
#NFLPA Statement on Tom Brady's Four-Game Suspension: http://bit.ly/1OzTQhw

Quote
NFLPA STATEMENT ON TOM BRADY'S FOUR-GAME SUSPENSION

The Commissioner's ruling today did nothing to address the legal deficiencies of due process. The NFL remains stuck with the following facts:

The NFL had no policy that applied to players;
The NFL provided no notice of any such policy or potential discipline to players;
The NFL resorted to a nebulous standard of "general awareness" to predicate a legally unjustified punishment;
The NFL had no procedures in place until two days ago to test air pressure in footballs; and
The NFL violated the plain meaning of the collective bargaining agreement.
The fact that the NFL would resort to basing a suspension on a smoke screen of irrelevant text messages instead of admitting that they have all of the phone records they asked for is a new low, even for them, but it does nothing to correct their errors.

The NFLPA will appeal this outrageous decision on behalf of Tom Brady.

!!!

Im going to say this. If I were famous and had famous friends and were married to Giselle, who might be more famous world wide than tom brady, and i had already given over relevant records, i would not want the leagur to have my physical phone. There are probably, at a minimum, photos of family, intimate texts, if not some, say, very private photos and texts that i would absolutley not tryst this bumbling league to not leak.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1675 on: July 28, 2015, 06:16:38 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I'd love to give Brady the benefit of the doubt, but this privacy defense is garbage.  He knew the NFL wanted the phone. He could have put it in a safe deposit box or with his attorney, to ensure safe keeping. To destroy it because that is what he normally does?  Right before his giving testimony?  Completely disingenuous.  I feel like a big fool for being such a strong defender of his integrity and position throughout deflate gate. But this is the breaking point.

Very disillusioned here.  And disappointed.  There are no hero's in sports, it seems.  Even Tom Brady destroys the evidence, and acts like it is a normal thing to do.  I just won't buy that spin.

Worst part is I have to listen to the Mike Francessa's, the Dan Shaughnessy's, and the Ron Borges' blow hards say "I told you so, he cheated, and tried to cover it up." 

Ughh.

Privacy is not a defense (he doesn't have to defend himself for doing what he wants with his private property), but a right. Whether it looks fishy or not shouldn't be of any consequence.

Sadly you've fallen for the NFL's propaganda game.

Again, this has nothing to do with guilt or not, but they've made you think that it's about that and in that sense they've won.

I personaly think Brady was part of DeflateGate, though I don't care for it, but I think it's time to focus on the relevance facts of due process and the court, and further than that our due Rights.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1676 on: July 28, 2015, 06:17:59 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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So on page 1 Goodell admits he levied the suspension. It's going to be hard for him to make the case for being an arbitrator of his own decision.

Oh, and Brady's attourneys submitted cell phone records from his carrier. This one is getting better and better.


https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/07282015-final-decision-tom-brady-appeal.pdf
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1677 on: July 28, 2015, 06:19:50 PM »

Offline colincb

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The statement from the league...

“On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed,” the league statement read. “He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. ?During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady.”

This is really hurts Brady in my opinion...again, what he actually did isn't that big of a deal in terms of on the field help in winning games, but the optics of this are NOT good for Brady.  For me this shows me that Brady had to choose the lesser of two evils...he obviously felt that getting heat for destroying his phone wouldn't be as bad as getting heat for what was actually on the phone

I'm not turning over my PRIVATE cell phone just so that some league investigator can take a peak at some selective messages.

Sorry, but I'd do the same whether I was guilty or not, doubly so if I was a celebrity / public figure.

We'll see them in Federal court, things should get interesting.
Yeah... there's a number of reasons I'd destroy my cell phone rather than let it be analyzed by a third party.  None of these reasons are related to deflating footballs.


Brady supposedly texts a lot. I can easily imagine that there are texts he'd rather not get leaked and the the NFL's promise that his texts wouldn't get leaked is laughable. Besides, they had an air tight investigative report and the employees' phones.

This is all back-pedaling because the Wells Report is so blatantly flawed that it looks like a frame job and credible researchers are calling them on it. Forget the science, the first thing you do in a statistical study is look at the completeness and accuracy of the data and you never, ever use the data from one source in a selective manner as they did with the chief referee. The guys who did the report aren't stupid, but hacks they are. They were told what conclusion to reach. It wasn't the first time that the firm put out a report like this that requires a informed reader to suspend belief.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/18/business/la-fi-toyota-exponent18-2010feb18

Quote
When some of the world's best-known companies faced disputes over secondhand smoke, toxic waste in the jungle and asbestos, they all turned to the same source for a staunch defense: Exponent Inc.

Now that same engineering and consulting firm has been hired by Toyota Motor Corp. as it seeks to fend off claims that sudden acceleration in its vehicles could be caused by problems in its electronic throttle systems.

A 56-page report that Menlo Park, Calif.-based Exponent sent to Congress on Feb. 9 found that the system behaved as intended and that Exponent was "unable to induce . . . unintended acceleration or behavior that might be a precursor to such an event."

But Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense.

"If I were Toyota, I wouldn't have picked somebody like Exponent to do analysis," said Stanton Glantz, a cardiologist at UC San Francisco who runs a database on the tobacco industry that contains thousands of pages of Exponent research arguing, among other things, that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. "I would have picked a firm with more of a reputation of neutrality."

Mike Gaulke, executive chairman of Exponent and an employee of the company since 1992, called critiques that it produced only favorable research a "cheap shot."

"Do we tell our clients a lot of what they don't want to hear? Absolutely," Gaulke said.

He said the firm often comes up with results that don't favor clients, although he couldn't provide specific examples.

The bolded part you just quoted is my boss. He is about 100 feet away from me in his office right now.

Did he read the Wells report? I have a lot of experience with applied statistics in business and think it's a piece of crap. Made as indicated, passes the weight test, and the charts looks good and comprehensive. Certainly would convince the media to whom all this stuff is ancient Greek, but it's lipstick on a pig. The dataset was compromised and the decisions made by Exponent in cherry picking what data to use and exclude from the very same person is ipso facto cause for dismissal.

Looking at it the first time, I was plagued by the thought that with all the uncertainty of the dataset, how did they come to a very specific conclusion with a unusually high level of statistical confidence. IOW, they were making the case that it was an open and shut case of guilt based on the evidence when I was thinking they couldn't possibly come to a conclusion unless they knew the conclusion at the start.

If you can ask what he thinks of it, please do.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1678 on: July 28, 2015, 06:20:22 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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And the NFLPA response

Quote
?@NFLPA
#NFLPA Statement on Tom Brady's Four-Game Suspension: http://bit.ly/1OzTQhw

Quote
NFLPA STATEMENT ON TOM BRADY'S FOUR-GAME SUSPENSION

The Commissioner's ruling today did nothing to address the legal deficiencies of due process. The NFL remains stuck with the following facts:

The NFL had no policy that applied to players;
The NFL provided no notice of any such policy or potential discipline to players;
The NFL resorted to a nebulous standard of "general awareness" to predicate a legally unjustified punishment;
The NFL had no procedures in place until two days ago to test air pressure in footballs; and
The NFL violated the plain meaning of the collective bargaining agreement.
The fact that the NFL would resort to basing a suspension on a smoke screen of irrelevant text messages instead of admitting that they have all of the phone records they asked for is a new low, even for them, but it does nothing to correct their errors.

The NFLPA will appeal this outrageous decision on behalf of Tom Brady.

!!!

Right, I don't know what to believe.  Did Brady give them what they asked for?  Did he destroy his phone?  There must be a lot of spin going on here and someone is going to get exposed.

It is a lot of trouble when they can't even prove that the footballs in question were even deflated.  I am an engineer and I work with applications of the ideal gas law every day.  Based on what I have read about the testing and the results, I am not even sure that the balls were deflated.  If the balls were never deflated, it is hard to say that Brady was generally aware of anything.

Now if he destroyed his phone and it actually was to thwart the investigation, that warrants a punishment I guess (I don't know all the NFLPA rules).  But this whole thing has just gotten silly.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #1679 on: July 28, 2015, 06:26:16 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The statement from the league...

“On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed,” the league statement read. “He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. ?During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady.”

This is really hurts Brady in my opinion...again, what he actually did isn't that big of a deal in terms of on the field help in winning games, but the optics of this are NOT good for Brady.  For me this shows me that Brady had to choose the lesser of two evils...he obviously felt that getting heat for destroying his phone wouldn't be as bad as getting heat for what was actually on the phone

I'm not turning over my PRIVATE cell phone just so that some league investigator can take a peak at some selective messages.

Sorry, but I'd do the same whether I was guilty or not, doubly so if I was a celebrity / public figure.

We'll see them in Federal court, things should get interesting.
Yeah... there's a number of reasons I'd destroy my cell phone rather than let it be analyzed by a third party.  None of these reasons are related to deflating footballs.


Brady supposedly texts a lot. I can easily imagine that there are texts he'd rather not get leaked and the the NFL's promise that his texts wouldn't get leaked is laughable. Besides, they had an air tight investigative report and the employees' phones.

This is all back-pedaling because the Wells Report is so blatantly flawed that it looks like a frame job and credible researchers are calling them on it. Forget the science, the first thing you do in a statistical study is look at the completeness and accuracy of the data and you never, ever use the data from one source in a selective manner as they did with the chief referee. The guys who did the report aren't stupid, but hacks they are. They were told what conclusion to reach. It wasn't the first time that the firm put out a report like this that requires a informed reader to suspend belief.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/18/business/la-fi-toyota-exponent18-2010feb18

Quote
When some of the world's best-known companies faced disputes over secondhand smoke, toxic waste in the jungle and asbestos, they all turned to the same source for a staunch defense: Exponent Inc.

Now that same engineering and consulting firm has been hired by Toyota Motor Corp. as it seeks to fend off claims that sudden acceleration in its vehicles could be caused by problems in its electronic throttle systems.

A 56-page report that Menlo Park, Calif.-based Exponent sent to Congress on Feb. 9 found that the system behaved as intended and that Exponent was "unable to induce . . . unintended acceleration or behavior that might be a precursor to such an event."

But Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense.

"If I were Toyota, I wouldn't have picked somebody like Exponent to do analysis," said Stanton Glantz, a cardiologist at UC San Francisco who runs a database on the tobacco industry that contains thousands of pages of Exponent research arguing, among other things, that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. "I would have picked a firm with more of a reputation of neutrality."

Mike Gaulke, executive chairman of Exponent and an employee of the company since 1992, called critiques that it produced only favorable research a "cheap shot."

"Do we tell our clients a lot of what they don't want to hear? Absolutely," Gaulke said.

He said the firm often comes up with results that don't favor clients, although he couldn't provide specific examples.

The bolded part you just quoted is my boss. He is about 100 feet away from me in his office right now.

Did he read the Wells report? I have a lot of experience with applied statistics in business and think it's a piece of crap. Made as indicated, passes the weight test, and the charts looks good and comprehensive. Certainly would convince the media to whom all this stuff is ancient Greek, but it's lipstick on a pig. The dataset was compromised and the decisions made by Exponent in cherry picking what data to use and exclude from the very same person is ipso facto cause for dismissal.

Looking at it the first time, I was plagued by the thought that with all the uncertainty of the dataset, how did they come to a very specific conclusion with a unusually high level of statistical confidence. IOW, they were making the case that it was an open and shut case of guilt based on the evidence when I was thinking they couldn't possibly come to a conclusion unless they knew the conclusion at the start.

If you can ask what he thinks of it, please do.

I could give you a very educated guess that he did not read it, he is about as uninterested in sports as anyone know and wouldn't really waste his time analyzing statistics for something that he is not interested in. I could ask him to do it, but I am not sure that would be worth me using a favor for :). On a related note though, he is a really interesting guy that pops up on all sorts of thing so it was a trip to see him quoted on celtics blog. I recommend everyone here see the documentary that is out right now merchants of doubt. It is about the corruption of science and he is on screen for about 20 minutes of it.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/merchants_of_doubt/