Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 264026 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2015, 09:39:02 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I didn't read much into it, so forgive me if I am wrong...

from what I understand, the home team presents 12 footballs to the ref to inspect before playing. With that being said, if what is said is true, that 11 out of 12 balls are deflated (sources: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2015/01/21/new-england-patriots-underinflated-balls-afc-championship-game/22087953/)

then shouldn't we blame the refs for not doing their job?

I think the argument is that the refs weighed them, they were conforming, and then at some point between that time (2+ hours before game time, for whatever reason) and halftime, they were tampered with.

The refs definitely have some explaining to do, though.  A referee handles the ball on literally every down.  Why didn't they notice the change in pressure, which was apparently pretty significant?  If the Colts defender and equipment manager could immediately tell something wasn't right, why couldn't the officials?

This is what I was thinking. Unlike the spying scandal, this had to pass through a 3rd party for approval. Not saying anyone is guilty or innocent, but I'm curious why this hasn't been mentioned in the main point of any argument with these recent articles.

Graham Gano (Panthers kicker) was saying on Twitter that he's asked the refs to check ball pressure mid-game and they've told him they can't.  They may not be allowed to recheck after the initial inspection.

"During our home playoff game this year I asked the official if he could check the psi outside again bc the ball felt flat and he..."  "...said he could not. I guess you can't blame the official for that. Rules are rules. Maybe the league will make some changes this...

thanks, it's making a little bit more sense now. So during game time, who takes care of the footballs? the refs? How is it that they got tampered with "easily"? And this is the AFC championship game, shouldn't the refs be on top of their game and assuming that only very experienced refs officiate these kind of playoff games?
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2015, 09:40:01 AM »

Offline mgent

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2015, 09:43:09 AM »

Offline rondohondo

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Don't know why they don't just use the same balls for both teams . Just make it an even playing field like in basketball .  In baseball they don't let pitchers use different size balls because one guy has a bigger hand than another , same in basketball (some guys can palm it, some can't ).

They were just asking for something like this to happen .

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2015, 09:46:37 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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Both teams bring 12 balls to the game, and they are inspected by officials about 2 hours before the game. Once approved, they are given to the home-team provided ball boy/girl. The officials also take 6 "kicking" balls and keep them themselves.

In other words, this was either cheating during the grey area or simple science. Maybe the Colts like their footballs near over-inflated, the Pats like theirs right on the edge of under-inflated, and science made the Patriots' footballs under-inflated while shrinking the Colts but keeping them inside the legal PSI.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2015, 09:47:44 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?
PV/T = k

or V = kT/P or P = kT/V

V = volume, T = temp, P = pressure, and k is a constant. So a lower temperature means less pressure for the same volume of gas.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2015, 09:48:40 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?

Under NFL rules, the ball can't be re-warmed or exposed to any artificial heating device. Ironically enough, it's to prevent unfair advantages.

http://www.foxsports.com/north/story/nfl-reminds-teams-of-rules-regarding-heating-footballs-120114

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2015, 10:00:27 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think I like "Ballghazi" better than "Deflategate"
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2015, 10:07:15 AM »

Offline mgent

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?
PV/T = k

or V = kT/P or P = kT/V

V = volume, T = temp, P = pressure, and k is a constant. So a lower temperature means less pressure for the same volume of gas.

That was my point.

The pressure changes but the volume/moles of air never do. 

So it's extremely easy to prove a human did the tampering, not the weather.  Just control T.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2015, 10:08:27 AM »

Online bdm860

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Don't know why they don't just use the same balls for both teams . Just make it an even playing field like in basketball .  In baseball they don't let pitchers use different size balls because one guy has a bigger hand than another , same in basketball (some guys can palm it, some can't ).

They were just asking for something like this to happen .

Ya someone explain the reason behind this rule to me.  Iím not a football guy at all, so I need some help with this.

My 1st thought was why wouldn't this affect both teams equally, theyíre using the same balls right?  Then I learn thatís wrong because each team provides their own balls when theyíre on offense.

So now that leads me to wonder, why is that even a rule in the first place?  What is the rationale for each team using a different set of balls?  Itís seems inevitable that a rule like that would lead to this type of controversy eventually.

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2015, 10:08:42 AM »

Online Cman

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As a Pats fan, this is all disappointing.
A few thoughts:
(1) It didn't affect the outcome of the game....
(2) ... but that's not the point. The point is that it appears that the Pats did something to gain an edge, and pushed the boundaries of what is considered "fair".
(3) "Fair" in this context, as with other things related to the NFL, is a bit murky.
(4) If the Pats literally tampered with the balls, ie having a ball boy use a device to deflate the balls a bit, then it is clearly "unfair"
(5) If the Pats did something less direct to affect the balls, then it is not clear how "unfair" it is (I don't know the science of this, but some sort of initial underinflation to the balls, that are then slightly warmed (ie kept in a warm room for X hours), then taken into the cold... etc).
(6) Proving or showing evidence of either (4) or (5) is going to be difficult in any case. But, that doesn't mean that circumstantial evidence won't be overwhelmingly against the Pats in this case.
(7) The NFL is not a court of law, so the NFL doesn't need to "presume innocence until proven guilty" or anything like that. I believe the commissioner could simply say "we have enough evidence, the Pats lose a pick" or something like that. My guess is that is what happens, and that it happens soon. The NFL wants this over and done with before next Monday...
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2015, 10:11:26 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?
PV/T = k

or V = kT/P or P = kT/V

V = volume, T = temp, P = pressure, and k is a constant. So a lower temperature means less pressure for the same volume of gas.

That was my point.

The pressure changes but the volume/moles/grams of air never do. 

So it's extremely easy to prove a human did the tampering, not the weather.  Just control T.
I know, I was just transcriping the gas law as my own way of saying that.

If the balls were properly inspected pre-game then they were clearly tampered with after they were turned over to the ball boys.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2015, 10:15:20 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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As a patriots fan this upsets me. Simply because it is another thing that will cause anti patriots people to discount what they have done.

Other teams/qbs have openly said they overinflated/underinflated balls, but it obviously significantly more of a story because of the Patriots history.

It seems that due to their reputation, the Patriots need to avoid doing anything illegal even if literally every team in the league does it.

What is really upsetting is that all the things that decided the game on Sunday had very little to do with the ball itself. The Patriots ran at will, the Colts couldn't run at all, the Pats receivers consistently got open and the colts receivers couldn't get open.

BTW, I think the NFL purposely leaked the 11 of 12 balls information to paint the Pats as a villian and make the super bowl even more intriguing.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2015, 10:19:27 AM »

Offline mgent

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?

Under NFL rules, the ball can't be re-warmed or exposed to any artificial heating device. Ironically enough, it's to prevent unfair advantages.

http://www.foxsports.com/north/story/nfl-reminds-teams-of-rules-regarding-heating-footballs-120114

I didn't mean the teams, I meant after the game when somebody re-weighed the balls.  I'm assuming that happens back inside, likely in the same room where they were originally weighed.

Anyone who has ever taken a science class (let alone someone who takes measurements for such a big money incorporation) should have known to take PV = nRT into account (either mathematically or experimentally, but they probably did both).  Let's all stop pretending that fact just slipped past them and EVERYBODY else before it made it to the media.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2015, 10:27:09 AM »

Offline KeepRondo

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?
The 12th ball having the correct amount of pressure kind of screws them.


Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2015, 10:28:00 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Okay, I might be extremely stupid/ignorant on this, but is everyone in this thread saying that a significant amount of air actually escapes from the ball when subjected to cold for a couple hours?

The pressure goes down when the ball enters the cold, but doesn't it go back up when it's re-warmed?

Under NFL rules, the ball can't be re-warmed or exposed to any artificial heating device. Ironically enough, it's to prevent unfair advantages.

http://www.foxsports.com/north/story/nfl-reminds-teams-of-rules-regarding-heating-footballs-120114

I didn't mean the teams, I meant after the game when somebody re-weighed the balls.  I'm assuming that happens back inside, likely in the same room where they were originally weighed.

Anyone who has ever taken a science class (let alone someone who takes measurements for such a big money incorporation) should have known to take PV = nRT into account (either mathematically or experimentally, but they probably did both).  Let's all stop pretending that fact just slipped past them and EVERYBODY else before it made it to the media.

What is a non story being blown up for an off week's worth of coverage, Trebek?
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