Author Topic: In retrospect what do you now think about the PSU scandal?  (Read 27298 times)

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Online jambr380

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I think it kinda sucked that Joe Paterno died soon after the whole thing unraveled and the world to blame without knowing his 'side'. He really did do what he was supposed to, but I also think he was an old guy that just didn't want to get into that sort of thing and certainly didn't understand it - plus, his focus was on football.

Could he have done more follow-up? Sure, but it wasn't really for him to decide. To say that his entire career was pretty much non-existent just because he had an assistant coach who was a horrible person isn't really fair.

And I have not changed my stance on this at all. I would probably have things to say about Donald Sterling. The fact is, not everything is black and white.

Offline Fafnir

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See, I actually don't think that's the case. My suspicion is that Paterno ignored/never followed up on what was happening with Sandusky in order to focus on football. He washed his hands of it as quickly as possible with the most token effort in order to pay attention to what was happening on the gridiron.

Eff that. People are trying to get the wins reinstated because they want to brag about their alma mater, by the way, and because they don't really care about Sandusky (or child abuse) either.
Yup. People tend to attack the "process" when in reality they don't like the result. They want Penn St. "back" to what it was. Having a successful "amateur" football program is more important than any victims, deterence, or future issues.

It was covered up and ignored because they didn't want to hurt football or their own view of the world. Its a pretty common response to abuse in a family, denial/dismissal. In this case it was the "family" of a football program and university. Since the president et all have a legal duty to report and protect in this situation they need to go to jail.

I am puzzled that this dynamic isn't pretty well recognized at this point, but sports is an insular world and the NCAA is greatly disliked.

Offline Fafnir

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I think it kinda sucked that Joe Paterno died soon after the whole thing unraveled and the world to blame without knowing his 'side'. He really did do what he was supposed to, but I also think he was an old guy that just didn't want to get into that sort of thing and certainly didn't understand it - plus, his focus was on football.

Could he have done more follow-up? Sure, but it wasn't really for him to decide. To say that his entire career was pretty much non-existent just because he had an assistant coach who was a horrible person isn't really fair.

And I have not changed my stance on this at all. I would probably have things to say about Donald Sterling. The fact is, not everything is black and white.
"Did everything he was supposed to do." What a great "leader of men" and "molder of men" I guess....

I care not one whit that he doesn't have a record in a dusty tome.

Online Donoghus

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See, I actually don't think that's the case. My suspicion is that Paterno ignored/never followed up on what was happening with Sandusky in order to focus on football. He washed his hands of it as quickly as possible with the most token effort in order to pay attention to what was happening on the gridiron.

Eff that. People are trying to get the wins reinstated because they want to brag about their alma mater, by the way, and because they don't really care about Sandusky (or child abuse) either.
Yup. People tend to attack the "process" when in reality they don't like the result. They want Penn St. "back" to what it was. Having a successful "amateur" football program is more important than any victims, deterence, or future issues.

It was covered up and ignored because they didn't want to hurt football or their own view of the world. Its a pretty common response to abuse in a family, denial/dismissal. In this case it was the "family" of a football program and university. Since the president et all have a legal duty to report and protect in this situation they need to go to jail.

I am puzzled that this dynamic isn't pretty well recognized at this point, but sports is an insular world and the NCAA is greatly disliked.

I'd also agree with this. 

Football came before child abuse in this instance.  And there were multiple people at Penn State culpable here.  It's pretty sickening. 


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Offline Fafnir

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I mean do people really think athletes getting into easy courses, having grades fixed, having tickets and court cases "disappear", and get all the other perks and privledges isn't a part of the athletic machine? That's all handled on a largely unofficial level, but it is a real thing. Why would the misdeeds of a prominent coach not recieve similar protection?

I don't really care one way or the other about penn states records, but I really don't buy into the "don't punish the current kids". The issue is not the individual actors but the systemic pressures and incentives.

Offline eja117

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One thing that's pretty sad is that for many years towards the end JoePa was barely coaching the team. Barely made decisions. Knew his players and all that, but just was not coaching at all. He was old and tired and not capable. But he loved what he did and was a legend and was worth the most to PSU on the sideline. But PSU would not want that getting out. I guess they want you to think he was a spry guy with lots of energy who just suddenly died.

You can't have it both ways. Either he was an old man with little grasp of the facts....who was barely coaching (admit it) orrrr he was mentally alert and on top of it and totally responsible for his actions and inactions.

You can't have it both ways and tell me he's a genius energetic football coach, but also a tired broken down man who just didn't have it in him to follow up on something pretty important in his midst.

One or the other

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think his reputation is tarnished.   It already was in my book as he stayed too long and the game passed him up.   Great coach in his prime but staying too long and this scandal will hurt his legacy. 

I think if I was notified of such a matter, I would watch the person like a hawk.   Also, I would have reported it to the local authorities as well as the college chain of command.  This would include the police and the  Department of Jobs and Family Services which investigate incidents of child abuse.  I would have sent staff out in buddy teams from that point on.   No more Jerry on the loose, he would be accompanied by another staff.   But I would do that to all staff to protect the children and also protect the staff from allegations.

I don't know if any of these steps were taken.  If he missed any of them it was mishandled.  Here is what wikipedia had, not that it makes it credible but if  it is true, then it was badly handled.

Quote
According to the first indictment, in 2002 assistant coach Mike McQueary, then a Penn State graduate assistant,[41] said he walked in on Sandusky anally raping a ten-year-old boy. The next day, McQueary reported the incident to head coach Joe Paterno. (Later while testifying during the Sandusky trial, McQueary spoke about what he had relayed to Paterno: "I told him and I want to make sure I'm clear. I made sure he knew it was sexual and wrong. There was no doubt.")[42] Paterno told McQueary at the time, “You did what you had to do. It is my job now to figure out what we want to do.”[43] At the Preliminary Hearing for Tim Curley and Gary Shultz, McQueary testified that Paterno was "shocked and saddened, kind of slumped back on his chair." He said that Paterno told him: "I'm sorry you had to see that. It's terrible. And he said, I need to think and tell some people about what you saw and I'll let you know what...what we'll do next."[44] Paterno then informed Penn State athletic director Tim Curley. At the Preliminary Hearing, McQueary also testified that he "believed" Sandusky was having "some type of intercourse" with the boy. He said that this was based on "the positioning" of Sandusky and the boy, but that he never saw "insertion" or "penetration" and is not "100 percent sure" that intercourse was occurring.[45]

Curley and senior vice president for finance and business Gary Schultz (who oversaw the Penn State police department) called McQueary to a meeting a week and a half later.[46] During the meeting McQueary said that he relayed in "graphic detail" what he had witnessed in the locker-room showers at the Lasch Building. At the Preliminary Hearing of Curley and Shultz, McQueary testified that he would have given Curley and Shultz a "rough idea" of the body positions of the individuals in the shower, and would have described the activity as "extremely sexual and I thought some kind of intercourse was going on."[47]

The indictment accused Curley and Schultz not only of failing to tell the police, but also of falsely telling the grand jury that McQueary never informed them of the alleged sexual activity.[48]

The one which got him caught.

Quote
An investigation was initiated by the Pennsylvania attorney general’s office into sexual abuse allegations against Sandusky in 2008. The charges were initiated at Central Mountain High School, where a student made allegations of abuse against Sandusky.[35] The investigation reached a new level of urgency when it became apparent that the allegations were not an isolated set of incidents, but that Sandusky had a strategy to cull vulnerable boys (whom he would first approach when they were 8–12 years-old) through the Second Mile organization, targeting his potential victims at will (boys tended to be from homes without a father present), at which point Sandusky employed classic child grooming strategies (offering trips to football games, gifts — leading to incremental touching). This form of manipulation is generally the modus operandi of pedophiles as a ploy to build trust while invading personal boundaries — all part of instilling confusion, leading up to and part of the sexual abuse (Sandusky often initiated overtly sexual behavior in the locker room showers). "The testimony of one victim who said he was forced to put his hand on Sandusky’s erection when he was 8 to 10 years old particularly outraged investigators. 'The poor kid was too young to even understand what an erection was,' one said."[36

Note, it was not Penn State, that initiated this investigation, but rather a high school, Central Mountain High School this was the one that stopped Sandusky's acts of molestation.    The NCAA should not be the sole investigator of a crime as they have a vested interest in the money involved.

It is a reality that jocks and coaches if they are good get a lot more leeway than normal folks.  I got drunk in the service, broke a brick wall with a punch and ripped a door off it's hinges and I got off scott free because I was the Center of the Army Post basketball team, the Sergeant Major was my coach who was to discipline me,   I got told never to do it again, which I did not.   But I am sure if was not scoring 27 ppg, that I would have got thrown out of the service.    This was small fry stuff, imagine a program like Penn State where they approach dietyhood in PA.  It is not right, I later declined promotion in the service because I didn't think it was right to be promoted just because I could ball it up.   I also, got to go home on leave once during a leave freeze during Desert Storm.   My Commander told me if we won the tourney he would validate my leave, I scored 25 a game and I got to go home and get married but it was conditional.   I imagine at Penn State and every college there is stuff like this going on.

While, I think they mishandled this on many levels, part of me thinks it is even less fair, that players got punished for something they did not do.  I hate seeing a Coach like Calipari walk and the program punished.   I 'd rather see a huge fine than to punish those who are left.

Offline eja117

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I mean do people really think athletes getting into easy courses, having grades fixed, having tickets and court cases "disappear", and get all the other perks and privledges isn't a part of the athletic machine? That's all handled on a largely unofficial level, but it is a real thing. Why would the misdeeds of a prominent coach not recieve similar protection?

I don't really care one way or the other about penn states records, but I really don't buy into the "don't punish the current kids". The issue is not the individual actors but the systemic pressures and incentives.
Woah woah woah. I gotta disagree. Giving a kid a class in basketweaving is not at all the same as protecting a Sandusky. You don't go to jail for an easy class.

And this again is a place where PSU's perception breaks down. They want to be known as this world class facility that gets its players an education (basically true) but then also want you to think that just accidents happen and these guys running the place weren't sure what to do and Sandusky fooled em.

If I'm PSU I'm going with...JoePa immediately did what he was supposed to do, then got out of the way and entrusted a world class facility to do their jobs and only inform him on the minimum that he needed to know because he respected the privacy of possible victims and staff.

The football team and school shouldn't be punished for a crime they didn't commit.

The president and AD and whatnot should probably go to jail or something.

The police dropped the ball the first time and this could have been dealt with then.

Don't believe the Freeh report because it's basically bogus.

Wait for the trial.

And that's as far as I could even possibly try to go. And they aren't doing that. It's all woe is us. No. Woe are the victims.


Offline Fafnir

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I mean do people really think athletes getting into easy courses, having grades fixed, having tickets and court cases "disappear", and get all the other perks and privledges isn't a part of the athletic machine? That's all handled on a largely unofficial level, but it is a real thing. Why would the misdeeds of a prominent coach not recieve similar protection?

I don't really care one way or the other about penn states records, but I really don't buy into the "don't punish the current kids". The issue is not the individual actors but the systemic pressures and incentives.
Woah woah woah. I gotta disagree. Giving a kid a class in basketweaving is not at all the same as protecting a Sandusky. You don't go to jail for an easy class.
If you want to pick an example from those 5 to compare perhaps not going with the easiest instance would be better? The comparable instance for this case is when players have serious criminal charges made to disappear, which has happened repeatedly and recently across the country.

You do go to jail for assault, sexual assualt, reckless driving, and the like frequently. But if an athlete at a power program gets into any of those situations they largely go away with maybe maybe probation or a warning. Happens all the dang time.

Offline Moranis

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In the PSU thread at the time, I posed the question, say Sandusky was not a child molester but was a con man running scams.  Did the same type of things, used PSU and the football program to lure people in, got them to invest, and basically stole their money.  Do you have the same gut reaction? Does the NCAA do the same thing?  There was a mix of reactions.  To me that says, it is more the type of crime that had people up in arms not the actual act.  Because the crimes were so grotesque, people reacted more harshly.  In other words, emotion played too large a role.  There should be no emotion.


Also, it should be noted that the incident McQueary spoke of, was one of the few indictments in which Sandusky was found not guilty.  Maybe not quite so cut and dry afterall.
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Offline JohnBoy65

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My biggest problem with the how everything went down is how they crippled that program, and hurt kids that didn't deserve it. What did the kids do to deserve to have a a few season of medicroity based on no bowls, limited practice, scholarships cut in half. That's not fair. Put the criminals in jail and make PSU pay a HUGE fine. Something insane like 10mill. 

Offline D.o.s.

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My biggest problem with the how everything went down is how they crippled that program, and hurt kids that didn't deserve it. What did the kids do to deserve to have a a few season of medicroity based on no bowls, limited practice, scholarships cut in half. That's not fair. Put the criminals in jail and make PSU pay a HUGE fine. Something insane like 10mill.

'Hurt kids that didn't deserve it' seems to be, in most cases, coded language for 'hurt a fanbase that didn't deserve it.' I sincerely doubt many people are really all that concerned with the future and well being of the Lion's football players beyond their capacity to put on the right colored laundry.
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My biggest problem with the how everything went down is how they crippled that program, and hurt kids that didn't deserve it. What did the kids do to deserve to have a a few season of medicroity based on no bowls, limited practice, scholarships cut in half. That's not fair. Put the criminals in jail and make PSU pay a HUGE fine. Something insane like 10mill.

'Hurt kids that didn't deserve it' seems to be, in most cases, coded language for 'hurt a fanbase that didn't deserve it.' I sincerely doubt many people are really all that concerned with the future and well being of the Lion's football players beyond their capacity to put on the right colored laundry.

The kids were also given the opportunity to transfer and play immediately at another school without having to sit out a year. 

The school made the bed but those who remained behind chose to sleep it in.  They knew the sanctions.   It's unfortunate but there was an opt out available.


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Offline eja117

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I mean do people really think athletes getting into easy courses, having grades fixed, having tickets and court cases "disappear", and get all the other perks and privledges isn't a part of the athletic machine? That's all handled on a largely unofficial level, but it is a real thing. Why would the misdeeds of a prominent coach not recieve similar protection?

I don't really care one way or the other about penn states records, but I really don't buy into the "don't punish the current kids". The issue is not the individual actors but the systemic pressures and incentives.
Woah woah woah. I gotta disagree. Giving a kid a class in basketweaving is not at all the same as protecting a Sandusky. You don't go to jail for an easy class.
If you want to pick an example from those 5 to compare perhaps not going with the easiest instance would be better? The comparable instance for this case is when players have serious criminal charges made to disappear, which has happened repeatedly and recently across the country.

You do go to jail for assault, sexual assualt, reckless driving, and the like frequently. But if an athlete at a power program gets into any of those situations they largely go away with maybe maybe probation or a warning. Happens all the dang time.
That's all true, although to be fair (don't know if this will make you feel better or worse) I have definitely in my own community seen things just go away and not because people were rich or connected. They just carry on with no finding and it just drags out. They don't have to show up at probation hearings or take their court ordered drug test. Sometimes it's just a joke. Community service or some such stupid thing.
Drives the police nuts because they have to work very hard in some cases to make an arrest and build a case and then just nothing

Offline eja117

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My biggest problem with the how everything went down is how they crippled that program, and hurt kids that didn't deserve it. What did the kids do to deserve to have a a few season of medicroity based on no bowls, limited practice, scholarships cut in half. That's not fair. Put the criminals in jail and make PSU pay a HUGE fine. Something insane like 10mill.

'Hurt kids that didn't deserve it' seems to be, in most cases, coded language for 'hurt a fanbase that didn't deserve it.' I sincerely doubt many people are really all that concerned with the future and well being of the Lion's football players beyond their capacity to put on the right colored laundry.

The kids were also given the opportunity to transfer and play immediately at another school without having to sit out a year. 

The school made the bed but those who remained behind chose to sleep it in.  They knew the sanctions.   It's unfortunate but there was an opt out available.
I agree a lot of fans care about themselves in this case, but they definitely care about the kids too. Would you ever tell your kid "Well. Son. Someone you know at your school committed a crime, so I tell ya what I'm gonna do. You have two options. You could go to a school you didn't want to go to or you can keep going to the school you're at now, but I'm gonna find ways to make it way less rewarding an experience".

A lot of those kids grew up wanting to play nowhere else. The captain in particular was a legacy through his father and the family was the happiest family on Earth when he committed. Kids that grew up in PA and felt they were living the dream. Sure they would get educations as well. 

I mean it worked out great for some of the players. Two of them transferred to Cal and USC (also excellent schools), but a lot of them didn't want to.