Poll

Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?

Manning vs Brady
3 (14.3%)
Wilt vs Russell
3 (14.3%)
1940's French military vs 1940's German military
10 (47.6%)
Babe Ruth vs field
4 (19%)
John Wooden vs field
1 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?  (Read 18412 times)

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Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2015, 08:25:37 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I would argue Ruth vs the field is the silliest, because I can't really see how anyone could make a convincing argument either way. The differences in all of the eras are just too numerous and overwhelming to really be able to come to many conclusions.
I think the Ruth argument is that the guy was well on his way to being a Hall of Fame pitcher...then switches mid career and becomes the best hitter ever. I think the year he hit 60 (in a season shorter than today) the next closest was Lou Gehrig with like 47 and the next closest was 18. The difference between him and the next best players was one of the biggest difference for any athlete ever. And he did it on a diet of hot dogs and beer (at least that's the legend).

And he even played partially in the dead ball era and shorter seasons, so that skews the numbers against him. But as you said, no black players, no Latin/South American/Japanese players in the pool of competition. Also, it wasn't uncommon for him to be facing guys in the later innings on an absurd pitch count, on three days rest with 240 innings under their belt by mid August. It's even difficult to gauge players' years in the mid eighties vs the mid nineties for obvious reasons, and the best stat off the top of my head is OPS+, but that's not perfect.
So if Babe were alive today would he be an all star? Like if he popped out of a time machine? He would, right?

Because if he wouldn't....then can you say he's better than the field? I guess to be fair you have to put guys from now into his time as well.

This is also why I love football players that play both ways.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2015, 08:34:30 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I admit I woulda thought we'd have gotten a UCLA guy by now.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2015, 08:36:00 PM »

Offline Nerf DPOY

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I would argue Ruth vs the field is the silliest, because I can't really see how anyone could make a convincing argument either way. The differences in all of the eras are just too numerous and overwhelming to really be able to come to many conclusions.
I think the Ruth argument is that the guy was well on his way to being a Hall of Fame pitcher...then switches mid career and becomes the best hitter ever. I think the year he hit 60 (in a season shorter than today) the next closest was Lou Gehrig with like 47 and the next closest was 18. The difference between him and the next best players was one of the biggest difference for any athlete ever. And he did it on a diet of hot dogs and beer (at least that's the legend).

And he even played partially in the dead ball era and shorter seasons, so that skews the numbers against him. But as you said, no black players, no Latin/South American/Japanese players in the pool of competition. Also, it wasn't uncommon for him to be facing guys in the later innings on an absurd pitch count, on three days rest with 240 innings under their belt by mid August. It's even difficult to gauge players' years in the mid eighties vs the mid nineties for obvious reasons, and the best stat off the top of my head is OPS+, but that's not perfect.
So if Babe were alive today would he be an all star? Like if he popped out of a time machine? He would, right?

Because if he wouldn't....then can you say he's better than the field? I guess to be fair you have to put guys from now into his time as well.

This is also why I love football players that play both ways.

I think if he grew up today, he would have had to choose(or whatever organization had him would) to either hit or pitch. I just doubt with modern wisdom that a team would entertain him doing both.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2015, 09:29:37 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I'm not so sure the Germans were so much mightier or stronger. They were just smarter going around the Maginot Line and still fudged up the Dunkirk thing and the Russia thing and the Battle of Britain.

The French had the larger military, but technologically, Germany had the edge.  Tactically, as well.  Mantsein was the reason that they bottled up the allies at Dunkirk - that guy was a military genius.  Thankfully, Hitler was an idiot, lol.  He stopped his tanks and troops from ending the war right there (phew), even though the resistance was beginning to stiffen from the French, in particular, who covered the retreat of the British.

They never could have won the battle of britain, though, imo.  Yes, the Luftwaffe had superior numbers, but the fuel problem, along with Goering, did them in.  They also failed to understand how the radar and watching system worked, but when you really break it down, the Spitfire was just better than the Me-109, and that's the matchup that decided the battle.  Sure, the Me-109 could climb higher, but what really matters in a dogfight is maneuverability, and the Spitfire just owned any plane that the Germans had at that time.  The better fighter for the Luftwaffe was the FW-190.  Now that would have been scary, to have had it in the Battle of Britain.

As for Barbarossa, it never could have succeeded.  Now, again, Hitler stopped himself by continually delaying the start of the operation by a few MONTHS :o to wrap up things in the Baltics, and, considering how far the Germans got even after the substantial delay, they might, and this is a BIG might, have been able to take Moscow, but I'm not so sure, especially given what happened at Stalingrad.  The Russians had the psychological edge over the Germans in terms of city fighting.  The soldiers of the Wehrmacht were terrified, and the Russians were fanatical fighters, so I don't know.  Only the SS could have fought their way through to victory in that situation, imo, but even if they'd captured Moscow - who cares?  The factories that had been moved to the Urals hadn't been touched, and they never had the manpower to be able to conquer all of Russia, or even defend the European Russia that theoretically would have been under their control.  They would have been stretched WAY too thin, in my estimation, but thankfully, we'll never know the answer to that, lol.   

Aside from the delay, what also did the Germans in was, again, Hitler's critical decision to encircle the Kiev Pocket, instead of continuing on to Moscow.  There was almost NOTHING between the Germans and the Russian capital at that time, and so that was the critical mistake.  Encircling said pocket was meaningless, because half a million troops is like pocket change to the Russian Army, and they hadn't even brought in their reserves from the east yet.  Sorry for the essay, I'm a WW2 buff, lol. ;D  You don't invade Russia - ever.  How hard is that to figure out, lol?  There are simply way too many soldiers, far too much space, your supply lines are stretched way too thin, Russian industry can out-produce us, and we're not even factoring in the horrible weather conditions that are made worse by the fact that many roads still aren't paved, lol.  NATO and the US Army, today, even at full strength, could never do it.  Trust me.  You don't mess with Russia, lol.  If you like this stuff, though (which I'm assume you do), I think that you'll highly enjoy this series.  It's called Soviet Storm: World War 2 in the East, and was originally produced for Russian TV in 2011.  I've watched almost every world war 2 program that's available, not to mention all of the books, lol ;D, and even I learned some things, haha, so if you have some time, enjoy :).  Here's the first episode -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A6UWkK2U4s

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2015, 09:39:19 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I would argue Ruth vs the field is the silliest, because I can't really see how anyone could make a convincing argument either way. The differences in all of the eras are just too numerous and overwhelming to really be able to come to many conclusions.
I think the Ruth argument is that the guy was well on his way to being a Hall of Fame pitcher...then switches mid career and becomes the best hitter ever. I think the year he hit 60 (in a season shorter than today) the next closest was Lou Gehrig with like 47 and the next closest was 18. The difference between him and the next best players was one of the biggest difference for any athlete ever. And he did it on a diet of hot dogs and beer (at least that's the legend).

And he even played partially in the dead ball era and shorter seasons, so that skews the numbers against him. But as you said, no black players, no Latin/South American/Japanese players in the pool of competition. Also, it wasn't uncommon for him to be facing guys in the later innings on an absurd pitch count, on three days rest with 240 innings under their belt by mid August. It's even difficult to gauge players' years in the mid eighties vs the mid nineties for obvious reasons, and the best stat off the top of my head is OPS+, but that's not perfect.

Don't forget the guys in the Negro Leagues who never got their due, especially after the records were 'lost,' lol. ::)  Ugh.  I'm talking about dudes like Josh Gibson, who was probably the greatest home run hitter of all time.  It is impressive that Ruth was able to hit all of those homers in shorter seasons, though, but I guess that that's just me. 

Also, the game was different then, as there were no pitch counts or bullpens to speak of, and guys were also big and strong farm boys who didn't break down like these thoroughbreds of today.  I mean, Joel Zumaya was absolutely unhittable with his 100 mph fastball until he did something to his pitching elbow after playing too much guitar hero (look it up), and he was never the same pitcher again, ahaha. ::) ;D  You really can't make this stuff up, lol. ;D

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2015, 09:47:26 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Even though I'm not a football guy, I think that the Manning-Brady one is just silly.  Watching Manning lose year after year to the Patriots was like Jordan versus Isiah, until New England downgraded their defense, iirc.  I also think that Peyton Manning is the Lebron James of the NFL - he gets all the attention and awards, but when you really look at it, he routinely comes up empty in the biggest games and moments, but again, I don't like football, lol. ;D  Of course, I think that Brady vs Eli Manning is completely one-sided in the favor of the Giants' quarterback, but what do I know?
Plus they changed the rules for P manning twice. Plus he kept losing in almost Brett Farvian fashion with game losing INTs.

I mean he made better commercials than Brady.

And he just lost 24-13 to the Colts, lol. ;D  Ahaha.  That's almost as good as when he was heavily favored in that superbowl a few years ago and lost.  Ahaha.  I don't think that Favre was that bad, though, aside from his MJ-retirement thing and the issue of him masterbating in crocs, lol.  Ahaha. ;D  Maybe it's me, but he didn't seem to choke in the beginning of his career, so what happened.  Of course, the first superbowl I ever watched was the Elway vs Favre one, lol, and I seem to be the Packers' angel of death.  Ugh.  So, go raiders, lol? ;D  I got nothing. ;D

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2015, 10:03:25 PM »

Offline furball

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I would argue Ruth vs the field is the silliest, because I can't really see how anyone could make a convincing argument either way. The differences in all of the eras are just too numerous and overwhelming to really be able to come to many conclusions.
I think the Ruth argument is that the guy was well on his way to being a Hall of Fame pitcher...then switches mid career and becomes the best hitter ever. I think the year he hit 60 (in a season shorter than today) the next closest was Lou Gehrig with like 47 and the next closest was 18. The difference between him and the next best players was one of the biggest difference for any athlete ever. And he did it on a diet of hot dogs and beer (at least that's the legend).

And he even played partially in the dead ball era and shorter seasons, so that skews the numbers against him. But as you said, no black players, no Latin/South American/Japanese players in the pool of competition. Also, it wasn't uncommon for him to be facing guys in the later innings on an absurd pitch count, on three days rest with 240 innings under their belt by mid August. It's even difficult to gauge players' years in the mid eighties vs the mid nineties for obvious reasons, and the best stat off the top of my head is OPS+, but that's not perfect.

Everyone always brings this stuff up but everyone else in that era was facing the same white pitchers on the same pitch counts on the same days rest and none of them did what he did.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2015, 10:10:23 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Beat LA....tell the truth. Are you ...um...drunk or under the influence? I'm not judging. I'm known to imbibe and post a little myself.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2015, 10:14:42 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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I'm not so sure the Germans were so much mightier or stronger. They were just smarter going around the Maginot Line and still fudged up the Dunkirk thing and the Russia thing and the Battle of Britain.

The French had the larger military, but technologically, Germany had the edge.  Tactically, as well.  Mantsein was the reason that they bottled up the allies at Dunkirk - that guy was a military genius.  Thankfully, Hitler was an idiot, lol.  He stopped his tanks and troops from ending the war right there (phew), even though the resistance was beginning to stiffen from the French, in particular, who covered the retreat of the British.

They never could have won the battle of britain, though, imo.  Yes, the Luftwaffe had superior numbers, but the fuel problem, along with Goering, did them in.  They also failed to understand how the radar and watching system worked, but when you really break it down, the Spitfire was just better than the Me-109, and that's the matchup that decided the battle.  Sure, the Me-109 could climb higher, but what really matters in a dogfight is maneuverability, and the Spitfire just owned any plane that the Germans had at that time.  The better fighter for the Luftwaffe was the FW-190.  Now that would have been scary, to have had it in the Battle of Britain.

As for Barbarossa, it never could have succeeded.  Now, again, Hitler stopped himself by continually delaying the start of the operation by a few MONTHS :o to wrap up things in the Baltics, and, considering how far the Germans got even after the substantial delay, they might, and this is a BIG might, have been able to take Moscow, but I'm not so sure, especially given what happened at Stalingrad.  The Russians had the psychological edge over the Germans in terms of city fighting.  The soldiers of the Wehrmacht were terrified, and the Russians were fanatical fighters, so I don't know.  Only the SS could have fought their way through to victory in that situation, imo, but even if they'd captured Moscow - who cares?  The factories that had been moved to the Urals hadn't been touched, and they never had the manpower to be able to conquer all of Russia, or even defend the European Russia that theoretically would have been under their control.  They would have been stretched WAY too thin, in my estimation, but thankfully, we'll never know the answer to that, lol.   

Aside from the delay, what also did the Germans in was, again, Hitler's critical decision to encircle the Kiev Pocket, instead of continuing on to Moscow.  There was almost NOTHING between the Germans and the Russian capital at that time, and so that was the critical mistake.  Encircling said pocket was meaningless, because half a million troops is like pocket change to the Russian Army, and they hadn't even brought in their reserves from the east yet.  Sorry for the essay, I'm a WW2 buff, lol. ;D  You don't invade Russia - ever.  How hard is that to figure out, lol?  There are simply way too many soldiers, far too much space, your supply lines are stretched way too thin, Russian industry can out-produce us, and we're not even factoring in the horrible weather conditions that are made worse by the fact that many roads still aren't paved, lol.  NATO and the US Army, today, even at full strength, could never do it.  Trust me.  You don't mess with Russia, lol.  If you like this stuff, though (which I'm assume you do), I think that you'll highly enjoy this series.  It's called Soviet Storm: World War 2 in the East, and was originally produced for Russian TV in 2011.  I've watched almost every world war 2 program that's available, not to mention all of the books, lol ;D, and even I learned some things, haha, so if you have some time, enjoy :).  Here's the first episode -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A6UWkK2U4s

TP for the history lesson. Very informative.

I was a biochem major who went to law school...weird, I know...so didn't study a lot of history.... WWII fascinates me though. Cool stuff.


Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2015, 10:21:24 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I am one of the only people I ever met that thinks at that at the end of WW2 we shoulda said to the Russians "Get out of East Europe in 24 hours or we will introduce some Russian cities to our friends Big Boy and Little Boy". 

I think ignoring what they did set up a horrid precedent.

Churchill agrees with me so I got that.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2015, 10:22:41 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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You have to put Brady over Manning. Manning is a top 10 QB but when you get to that level post-season is often the tie breaker. Heck for QBs (even though you didn't ask): Montana-Unitas-Brady is the logical 1,2,3. Likely put Otto Graham 4.

Ruth still dominated his era like no other. Can you imagine a player today hitting more home runs than entire teams?

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2015, 10:23:35 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Beat LA....tell the truth. Are you ...um...drunk or under the influence? I'm not judging. I'm known to imbibe and post a little myself.

Nope.  I'm not that interesting, lol. ;D  I've never like alcohol and I've never done any drugs of any kind, but it's nice to see that I can give off the impression that I'm drunk by posting a lot, lol (sarcasm). ;D  I just found the topic to be interesting, as well as the various responses from posters such as yourself.  Have I done something wrong?

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2015, 10:24:53 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I am one of the only people I ever met that thinks at that at the end of WW2 we shoulda said to the Russians "Get out of East Europe in 24 hours or we will introduce some Russian cities to our friends Big Boy and Little Boy". 

I think ignoring what they did set up a horrid precedent.

Churchill agrees with me so I got that.

What cities?  Their entire country was in ruin.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2015, 10:24:54 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Beat LA....tell the truth. Are you ...um...drunk or under the influence? I'm not judging. I'm known to imbibe and post a little myself.

Nope.  I'm not that interesting, lol. ;D  I've never like alcohol and I've never done any drugs of any kind, but it's nice to see that I can give off the impression that I'm drunk by posting a lot, lol (sarcasm). ;D  I just found the topic to be interesting, as well as the various responses from posters such as yourself.  Have I done something wrong?
No. It was just a different level of posting that you don't see that often. Quite passionate.

Re: Which versus debate is silliest or most obvious?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2015, 10:25:36 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I am one of the only people I ever met that thinks at that at the end of WW2 we shoulda said to the Russians "Get out of East Europe in 24 hours or we will introduce some Russian cities to our friends Big Boy and Little Boy". 

I think ignoring what they did set up a horrid precedent.

Churchill agrees with me so I got that.

What cities?  Their entire country was in ruin.
I guess maybe Vladivostock might have been a fine way to start then.