Author Topic: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston  (Read 6098 times)

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Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2014, 01:39:13 AM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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On the point of tradition. All the  interviews of player in free agency, or approaching free agency, where the prospect of winding up a Celtic is brought up, the players cite the team's history as a plus.

I hate to rain on your parade, but so do the players who are traded here, even when we suck, like Kris Humphries last year, saying that he wanted to, "bring that back," or whatever, even though he's not exactly a player who can make such a change to our team, to say the least.  They all say that stuff - it's just pr crap.  I wouldn't read anything into it.

This. There are certain platitudes players' agents tell them to say that differ slightly from city to city, but they are platitudes nonetheless.

Celtics - storied franchise, history of winning
Red Sox - privilege to play in this ballpark, passionate fans
Patriots - professionalism and doing things the right way, privilege to play with Brady/Belichick
Bruins - gritty team with great locker room.

There are things said for each team. Sadly it's all fake.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2014, 08:29:19 AM »

Offline GreenGoggles

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It's true we haven't signed any big time free agents, and also true we haven't had the cap space to sign one. To me though these two points matter little and aren't a great basis for discussion. To me the real question is, if the Celtics become good, would a max type player choose to sign here over a city like Houston or Dallas or LA with a comparable roster and salary?

In my opinion the answer is a clear no, when choosing between two similar salaries and chances to win players today will choose the better climate/nightlife than the tradition and history of the team, and I don't blame them.

What we can do is make our team as attractive as possible by increasing the chance to win it all when you come here, and to do that I believe you need to acquire young talent, develop young talent and make space for a player of that caliber on the roster. I think we are at the end of acquiring talent, next season we should begin developing our young core together full time.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2014, 08:30:05 AM »

Offline cb8883

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No this is actually fact. Name me one big name free agent that has ever decided to come to Boston? Please don't use KG resigning as an example either. It's embarrassing. The following desinations are a lot more desirable than a mod market like Boston for reasons of weather taxes or endorsements.

Lakers
Heat
Rockets
Mavericks
Clippers
Bulls
Knicks
Nets
Hawks
Spurs
Suns
Wizards
Cavs

Some teams on the list have not signed a big name free agent such as the Wizards or Hawks but with KD ear markedtowards returning to Baltimore it puts them on here. Weather Geography Nightlife Endorsements and Money make up where a player wants to go. Boston will never get an elite FA. Everyone just needs to admit that and move on.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2014, 08:32:50 AM »

Offline Eja117

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They've been able to resign their own FAs such as Pierce and Rondo, but I can't think of a time a highly sought after guy came here. Sheed barely counts to me. Last time I can remember was Dominique Wilkins and that didn't go so great.
Shaq was a tad interesting

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2014, 09:40:12 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
The weather point is purely subjective. Some people actually enjoy cold, damp, snowy weather.

Usually not NBA players, I read Shaq book and one thing he said was he wanted to go somewhere with warm weather when drafted.  I think players do fall in love with cities and fans in places like Boston.

If they came here they were fading as players or we were their best shot at a ring.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2014, 10:58:01 AM »

Offline boscel33

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We will see, there  is evidence of players picking places with nice weather or media outlets.  Boston is ok as a media outlet but it can have harsh winters.  Time will tell, I bet I have seen more winters than you have and while I hope we do well, I don't believe we will because of the weather.

Houston, LA and Miami lately seem to do very well and all have nice climate.

Quote
The makeup of championship contenders hasn’t much changed. There are franchises who pull trade and free-agency miracles, like the Heat and Clippers (and like the Lakers are wont to do but have failed at), and there are those who draft committed players into hard-working, committed systems. Large and warm-weather markets, willing to pay a large salary tax, will always favor the former, and the latter will always have to be what smaller markets hope for. - See more at: http://www.red94.net/nba-leagues-power-structure/11023/#sthash.fVY4GXLa.dpuf
http://www.red94.net/nba-leagues-power-structure/11023/

The "nice climate" and "warm weather" statements get me. 

Q:  When do they play most of their games?  A:  Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar. 

Why should a warmer climate matter when you're off through the summer anyway!

"There's sharks and minnows in this world. If you don't know which you are, you ain't a shark."

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2014, 11:18:44 AM »

Offline mef730

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Where is there any evidence to indicate that the Celtics can not get an expensive FA? There is none. None. Not one bit. Boston has not had money to spend on FA's in well, ever. Garnett did not want to come here because he was loyal. To a fault.

Watch a Celtics game. They are packed. Even now. Other teams say we have the best, most knowledgeable fans. No fan base salutes ex players like we do. I live in Houston where the team is one of the 4 or 5 best in the NBA and the folks here act like they barely exist. Sure the taxes and weather is great but if you are not JJ Watt they could care less.

You play well in Boston for the C's and you are a God for all time. You don't think that is not a draw? You win in Boston and you are put on the Rushmore of Rushmores. That matters as well. Trust me, next season with all that money we will snag somebody. If not you can rub my nose in it then.

I will never understand where the "nobody will come here" is coming from. We have no evidence to support the argument.

I hope you're right, but I'll take the "don't pass" line on this one.  It's about the money, championships and location.  We'll have the first, just no possibility at #2 (the Celtics' history is a great PR talking point that means nothing to most of the free agents we're after; the oldest of them was barely out of diapers on the day Larry Bird retired.) and no ability to change #3.  I love Boston; I couldn't live anywhere else.  But it's not an easy city to move to, and it still has a reputation for being racist, valid or not.

Your post, though, does convince me of one thing: This is a great city in which to be a fan.  Other fans are smart, passionate about the teams and love to talk sports.  We have four teams with great histories and we pass it along through the generations.  Even when the teams suck, the games are better than any other cities'.

Two other things:

For those of you who are saying that Dominique was the best free agent we've ever signed, how can you forget about X-Man?  That guy was pure gold.

We're going to get a chance to test the geography theory in 2016, when the cap space frees up in LA, New York and, possibly, Brooklyn, if they can dump a salary or two this year.

Mike

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2014, 11:23:17 AM »

Offline Chief

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Generally, we get old washed up players like Xavier MC Daniel or Wilkens looking for someone stupid enough to give them one last payday. Or we overpay for Dana Barros. Either way, history does not look good.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2014, 11:49:20 AM »

Offline greece66

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This is true... Boston has never had significant cap space.  As far as I can remember, there has never been a point in their entire history that they have had the cap space to sign a max free agent.  Kind of insane, actually.
FA of 2016 is approaching and we will be armed to the teeth.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm
Having said this, I doubth Stevens/Ainge's priority is to sign a star (KD caliber). But FA's are coming, that's for sure.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2014, 11:49:46 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Generally, we get old washed up players like Xavier MC Daniel or Wilkens looking for someone stupid enough to give them one last payday. Or we overpay for Dana Barros. Either way, history does not look good.
Add Jermaine O'Neal to that list (MLE) but again, he was a piece being added to a strong squad.

One other factor completely overlooked so far: Taxes. I believe Florida and Texas have no personal income tax. That is not chump change when you are raking in $15m plus per season. Rondo wanted to be in Houston or Dallas and possibly for this reason.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2014, 12:04:35 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Generally, we get old washed up players like Xavier MC Daniel or Wilkens looking for someone stupid enough to give them one last payday. Or we overpay for Dana Barros. Either way, history does not look good.
Add Jermaine O'Neal to that list (MLE) but again, he was a piece being added to a strong squad.

One other factor completely overlooked so far: Taxes. I believe Florida and Texas have no personal income tax. That is not chump change when you are raking in $15m plus per season. Rondo wanted to be in Houston or Dallas and possibly for this reason.
hasn't impacted other New England teams from signing FAs.  I can't imagine that it's that much of a prevention for FAs signing here.  for that matter, hasn't stopped FAs from signing in other states that have an income tax either. 

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2014, 12:07:14 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Generally, we get old washed up players like Xavier MC Daniel or Wilkens looking for someone stupid enough to give them one last payday. Or we overpay for Dana Barros. Either way, history does not look good.
Add Jermaine O'Neal to that list (MLE) but again, he was a piece being added to a strong squad.

One other factor completely overlooked so far: Taxes. I believe Florida and Texas have no personal income tax. That is not chump change when you are raking in $15m plus per season. Rondo wanted to be in Houston or Dallas and possibly for this reason.

This. The income tax rates have to be a huge motivating factor in making these decisions, because we're talking about some large amounts of money coming out for taxes for alot of these players.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2014, 12:07:51 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Generally, we get old washed up players like Xavier MC Daniel or Wilkens looking for someone stupid enough to give them one last payday. Or we overpay for Dana Barros. Either way, history does not look good.
Add Jermaine O'Neal to that list (MLE) but again, he was a piece being added to a strong squad.

One other factor completely overlooked so far: Taxes. I believe Florida and Texas have no personal income tax. That is not chump change when you are raking in $15m plus per season. Rondo wanted to be in Houston or Dallas and possibly for this reason.
hasn't impacted other New England teams from signing FAs.  I can't imagine that it's that much of a prevention for FAs signing here.  for that matter, hasn't stopped FAs from signing in other states that have an income tax either.
I am not claiming it is THE factor, just adding it for completeness of reasons why it is hard for the C s to sign free agents.  Given a choice of states with most other factors being equal, the lack of income tax can become important.

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2014, 12:17:29 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Generally, we get old washed up players like Xavier MC Daniel or Wilkens looking for someone stupid enough to give them one last payday. Or we overpay for Dana Barros. Either way, history does not look good.
Add Jermaine O'Neal to that list (MLE) but again, he was a piece being added to a strong squad.

One other factor completely overlooked so far: Taxes. I believe Florida and Texas have no personal income tax. That is not chump change when you are raking in $15m plus per season. Rondo wanted to be in Houston or Dallas and possibly for this reason.

This. The income tax rates have to be a huge motivating factor in making these decisions, because we're talking about some large amounts of money coming out for taxes for alot of these players.
Income tax in MA amounts to less than $800,000 per annum on a $15 million dollar contract. I am sure we're usually capable of beating other offers by 800k.

Moreover, NY state has considerably higher rates, and that has never stopped their teams from attracting FAs. Same for California and its EXORBITANTLY high rates.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: The silly conventional wisdom about FA's and Boston
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2014, 01:04:50 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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It's true we haven't signed any big time free agents, and also true we haven't had the cap space to sign one. To me though these two points matter little and aren't a great basis for discussion. To me the real question is, if the Celtics become good, would a max type player choose to sign here over a city like Houston or Dallas or LA with a comparable roster and salary?

In my opinion the answer is a clear no, when choosing between two similar salaries and chances to win players today will choose the better climate/nightlife than the tradition and history of the team, and I don't blame them.

What we can do is make our team as attractive as possible by increasing the chance to win it all when you come here, and to do that I believe you need to acquire young talent, develop young talent and make space for a player of that caliber on the roster. I think we are at the end of acquiring talent, next season we should begin developing our young core together full time.
a good post, though i differ with the importance of the bolded point. if not having cap space to sign top free agents is the reason they dont sign with boston, then saying free agents will never sign here doesnt hold up, does it?

if a key reason for free agents not coming here has historically/frequently been "boston cant offer the money" then it is reasonable to assume that at least 1 or 2 such free agents might consider seriously coming to boston IF the money is there.

weather? i dont follow this one. new york and chicago sign players. and other NE teams sign free agents. not convinced this is THE deciding factor for free agents. a few? sure, that is understandable.

night life? i also dont buy into the viewpoint that every single free agent rejects boston due to this. do some? i would accept that. but all? no thanks.

over all, i expect that ainge will be able to land 1-2 very good to great free agents in the next few years, pair them with talent acquired through trades and draft, and field a good basketball team.
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