Max offer Jimmy Butler?

[Csfan1984]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

JB brings a few things to the table AB will NEVER bring.

1. He is 5 inches taller. AB is a very undersized SG, JB is an oversized one, so much so that he gets to guard the LBJ / KDs of the world. YOU CANNOT TEACH SIZE

2. JB is rugged - he is playing 40 MPG and has no injuries. AB has been out for about 50% of his career !!! You are paying double but getting more than double minutes !!!

You need to think about it in Production / Minute Played / Dollar and then you see JB is worth 3 times AB...

-The height is why he is a better defender which I mention him being.
-Minutes played has to go down for long term reasons.

Like I said I am looking at production he is not 3x better than AB. Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. He isn't worth the Max. It would be like paying Jeff Green 15 million a year. We would never hear the end of it.

I did not say he is 3x better, I said he produces three times more. Don't understand your point about minutes played. JB is historically durable. AB is not. Please explain why you do not think my point is valid.

As for JG, he is going to get paid 15M or close to it. He has a $9M option and everyone assumes he is going to turn it down. I am not saying any of these guys is "worth" the money - just that this is what the NBA is paying nowadays...

Doesn't make sense to pay a guy 3x more if he's not 3x or even 2x better. And history shows no one averages 40+ minutes a game and holds up. Also only a matter of time before JB misses time happens to 95% of the league so I can careless about pass health in comparing players. I'm talking meat and potatoes here, the #s... the stats. Maxing JB is not a good idea.

[kozlodoev]

As for JG, he is going to get paid 15M or close to it. He has a $9M option and everyone assumes he is going to turn it down. I am not saying any of these guys is "worth" the money - just that this is what the NBA is paying nowadays...

Whatever that's supposed to mean. If that's what the NBA is paying, that's what they're worth.

[Kane3387]

Yes. Make the Bulls match.

[kozlodoev]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

[Csfan1984]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

Never gotten 40 minutes a season either. Details

[kozlodoev]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

Never gotten 40 minutes a season either. Details

It's hard to get 40 minutes a season when you're too brittle to even last the full 82 games. But this aside, Butler's per-36 production this season (20 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3 apg) considerably exceeds anything Bradley has ever brought to the table.

[Csfan1984]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

Never gotten 40 minutes a season either. Details

It's hard to get 40 minutes a season when you're too brittle to even last the full 82 games. But this aside, Butler's per-36 production this season (20 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3 apg) considerably exceeds anything Bradley has ever brought to the table.

I am not denying that. I have said two year production average to put history of player into context. Any GM thinking of signing him shouldn't just go off one year. As far as comparing what AB has done JB is older, on a better team, getting a ton of minutes, more shots and is in fact a better player(said he was a better player a bunch now). Will he get the Max I 100% believe so. I just don't think it is wise to pay him the max because I don't believe he is that good. NBA is devoid of proven talent which is why so many guys get bigger $ than expected.  But just because you can pay a guy the Max doesn't always mean you should. He not a #1 guy on a team. Simple as that for me.

[Joe Green]

Doesn't make sense to pay a guy 3x more if he's not 3x or even 2x better. And history shows no one averages 40+ minutes a game and holds up. Also only a matter of time before JB misses time happens to 95% of the league so I can careless about pass health in comparing players. I'm talking meat and potatoes here, the #s... the stats. Maxing JB is not a good idea.

I am not saying JB will average 40 mpg... but that is what he IS doing right now. We have no way of guessing the future, except looking at what a guy has done up to now.

Up to now:
JB has been MUCH healthier, providing double or triple the minutes AB has
JB has average mote points, rebounds and blocks per minute (AB is the WORST rebounder at SG)
JB is MUCH more efficient on offense, most notibly getting to the line

In the NBA two nickels don't make a dime. A player who is 50% better than another makes 100% more money. Case and point - we have a lot of mediocre talent on this team - but cannot beat a team that has less depth but one or two players who are much better than our best.

[kozlodoev]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

Never gotten 40 minutes a season either. Details

It's hard to get 40 minutes a season when you're too brittle to even last the full 82 games. But this aside, Butler's per-36 production this season (20 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3 apg) considerably exceeds anything Bradley has ever brought to the table.

I am not denying that. I have said two year production average to put history of player into context. Any GM thinking of signing him shouldn't just go off one year. As far as comparing what AB has done JB is older, on a better team, getting a ton of minutes, more shots and is in fact a better player(said he was a better player a bunch now). Will he get the Max I 100% believe so. I just don't think it is wise to pay him the max because I don't believe he is that good. NBA is devoid of proven talent which is why so many guys get bigger $ than expected.  But just because you can pay a guy the Max doesn't always mean you should. He not a #1 guy on a team. Simple as that for me.

I'm not sure what  two-year average you're constructing for Bradley. He's not anywhere close to shooting 46% over the last 2 seasons.

[Celtics18]

Jimmy Butler's ascendency into the ranks of NBA superstar is astonishing.  When you watch him play, nothing really jumps out at you as elite, superstar talent.  He's not a freak athlete (by NBA standards), he doesn't have otherworldly handles, or a can't miss jump shot.

However, he can score in a variety of ways.  He's strong on the block, knows how to take advantage of opportunities, and seems to be playing with supreme confidence.

Last year he was averaging 13 points a game and looked to be carving out a nice career as a really solid role player. 

Today he's in the conversation as a league MVP.  Astonishing.  He has to be the best story in the NBA right now. 

[kozlodoev]

Jimmy Butler's ascendency into the ranks of NBA superstar is astonishing.  When you watch him play, nothing really jumps out at you as elite, superstar talent.  He's not a freak athlete (by NBA standards), he doesn't have otherworldly handles, or a can't miss jump shot.

However, he can score in a variety of ways.  He's strong on the block, knows how to take advantage of opportunities, and seems to be playing with supreme confidence.

Last year he was averaging 13 points a game and looked to be carving out a nice career as a really solid role player. 

Today he's in the conversation as a league MVP.  Astonishing.  He has to be the best story in the NBA right now.

Sounds a little bit like a former Celtic we all know.

[Csfan1984]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

Never gotten 40 minutes a season either. Details

It's hard to get 40 minutes a season when you're too brittle to even last the full 82 games. But this aside, Butler's per-36 production this season (20 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3 apg) considerably exceeds anything Bradley has ever brought to the table.

I am not denying that. I have said two year production average to put history of player into context. Any GM thinking of signing him shouldn't just go off one year. As far as comparing what AB has done JB is older, on a better team, getting a ton of minutes, more shots and is in fact a better player(said he was a better player a bunch now). Will he get the Max I 100% believe so. I just don't think it is wise to pay him the max because I don't believe he is that good. NBA is devoid of proven talent which is why so many guys get bigger $ than expected.  But just because you can pay a guy the Max doesn't always mean you should. He not a #1 guy on a team. Simple as that for me.

I'm not sure what  two-year average you're constructing for Bradley. He's not anywhere close to shooting 46% over the last 2 seasons.

Clearly you have to read it over again.  Was career 2pt fg% but 2 year would be 45% last year 48% this year I rounded low actually.

[Vox_Populi]

Jimmy Butler's ascendency into the ranks of NBA superstar is astonishing.  When you watch him play, nothing really jumps out at you as elite, superstar talent.  He's not a freak athlete (by NBA standards), he doesn't have otherworldly handles, or a can't miss jump shot.

However, he can score in a variety of ways.  He's strong on the block, knows how to take advantage of opportunities, and seems to be playing with supreme confidence.

Last year he was averaging 13 points a game and looked to be carving out a nice career as a really solid role player. 

Today he's in the conversation as a league MVP.  Astonishing.  He has to be the best story in the NBA right now.

Sounds a little bit like a former Celtic we all know.

Tony Allen?

[Joe Green]

Jimmy Butler's ascendency into the ranks of NBA superstar is astonishing.  When you watch him play, nothing really jumps out at you as elite, superstar talent.  He's not a freak athlete (by NBA standards), he doesn't have otherworldly handles, or a can't miss jump shot.

However, he can score in a variety of ways.  He's strong on the block, knows how to take advantage of opportunities, and seems to be playing with supreme confidence.

Last year he was averaging 13 points a game and looked to be carving out a nice career as a really solid role player. 

Today he's in the conversation as a league MVP.  Astonishing.  He has to be the best story in the NBA right now.

Actually, seems most like a Kawhi Leonard story. Solid player with great D jumping into elite status. Also, did you see him play ? He is around 80% shooting when close to the basket. He has mastered the bank shot - an old time very few players use, most notably - Tim Duncan.

[kozlodoev]

Can't help but get a Joe Johnson and RudyG. feel from JB. JB is good and some one will give him the max but that contract will define expectations which he will not live up to.

I would pay JB twice what I would pay Rudy. Rudy is a one way basketball player, and a low efficiency one at that. I think JB is about equal an in prime JJ - though very different. JJ was an unstoppable offensive player with inside and outside threat and JB will never be that good, but JJ was a hot and cold defensive player while JB never takes a game off...

Twenty years ago, JB would be a quality player who would commend no more than 50% of the max, but in today's hyper inflated salary market, JB is a max player who may turn out to be a LITTLE overpaid...

AB is a little overpaid (8 million instead of 6 million) and you see the kind of response he gets. JB is a 48% fg 2pt, 32% fg 3pt player and 79% ft player who if playing proper mins would be giving you on average for last 2 years of 16pts a game. Compare that to AB who is 46%/34%/78%/16pts and is a year+ years younger. Now JB is better on D and a little better handling the ball but imagine giving JB twice as much $ than AB for those #s. He will be well overpaid. Can a team afford that sure however fans will be turning on this guy 2 years or less after he signs his deal.

Except that Bradley has never averaged 16 ppg in his career, and Butler is currently averaging 22 ppg. Details.

Never gotten 40 minutes a season either. Details

It's hard to get 40 minutes a season when you're too brittle to even last the full 82 games. But this aside, Butler's per-36 production this season (20 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3 apg) considerably exceeds anything Bradley has ever brought to the table.

I am not denying that. I have said two year production average to put history of player into context. Any GM thinking of signing him shouldn't just go off one year. As far as comparing what AB has done JB is older, on a better team, getting a ton of minutes, more shots and is in fact a better player(said he was a better player a bunch now). Will he get the Max I 100% believe so. I just don't think it is wise to pay him the max because I don't believe he is that good. NBA is devoid of proven talent which is why so many guys get bigger $ than expected.  But just because you can pay a guy the Max doesn't always mean you should. He not a #1 guy on a team. Simple as that for me.

I'm not sure what  two-year average you're constructing for Bradley. He's not anywhere close to shooting 46% over the last 2 seasons.

Clearly you have to read it over again.  2pt fg% 45% last year 48% this year I rounded low actually.

If you want to be doing it that way, Butler is shooting 49% and Bradley 46%. But that's beside the point.

The point that Butler is pretty [dang] good, and sometimes marginal improvements make a major difference (would you rather have LeBron / Carmelo, or Jeff Green at half the price?)