Defending the pick and roll

[BballTim]

Zone.

Use our depth to play more pressure and extend the defense to half or three-quarter court.

Pack the paint and dare teams to hit the outside shot.

Double teams to get the ball out of a player's hands and then deny him the ball.

I'm sure people could come up with other examples.

They are all basic basketball defensive strategies that can be employed during a game.

How many times has Stevens tried any of them this season?

Mike

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Playing exclusively man to man is stupid.

You have to mix it up.

  Wyc must be pretty unhappy that Danny spent all that money on Brad when he could have gotten better coaching from the typical celticblogger.

[TheFlex]

Bump because this contains actual analysis which is a nice break from posters mouthing off on what they think they see, then calling someone who posts stats to prove the opposite a nerd or some childish junk like that. TP.

It seems like no matter how conservatively we defend the PnR our bigs are just too athletically inadequate to get the job done. The PnR is especially lethal for us when one of the opposing bigs is a long-range shooter, thus dragging a big body out of the heart of the paint and onto the perimeter, where even the most athletic big men in the league struggle recovering to play help D at the rim. In cases where there is a stretch 4 or stretch 5 on the opposing team, the only way our team can stop a roll down the middle is to bring a weakside perimeter defender into the middle of the paint which leaves the corner three wide open. The only way to prevent a kickout is if the guard plays a free safety of sorts and hovers behind the guard, essentially rendering him useless in terms of preventing a backdoor cut or other forward-moving passes, leaving the big man responsible for both the ball handler and the roller vulnerable. The only way to prevent a largely uncontested midrange jumper is to trap the ball handler, which then leaves someone wide open, likely rolling hard down the middle lane. Essentially, we have to aggressively inhibit the opposing team's ability to 1) drive the ball via dribble or pass to the basket, 2) pass out for an open three or 3) pull up for a jumper, and then hope they don't recognize our vulnerability to be scored on by nature of the remaining two methods.

If we plan on keeping Sully and KO we really need a rim protector with mobility. Sullinger is not as bad as KO but he's not a world beater on defense either. If we go with KO I don't even think a cement-footed rim protector like Hibbert or Perkins would get the job done. I think we'd need an athletic freak that could fly in from the weak side or the top of the key and pin the ball to the backboard.

Olynyk is more athletic then Sullinger.

I did see Sullinger moving that big body of his a lot better last game. It was nice to see him lead a break and he was hustling to his spots better. Perhaps Stevens benching him may have worked. Hopefully we see more of it.

He's more mobile than Sully but he has T-Rex arms which prevent him from playing as big as his height suggests. Sully has longer arms which is why I like him more on the defensive end.

I agree the benching was the right move. Let's hope he keeps it up.

Olynyk's standing reach is 2 and a half inches higher then Sullinger.

His wingspan is almost three inches shorter than Sully's. Standing reach doesn't mean all that much to me because there's not many basketball situations where a defender can effectively utilize a straight up and down stance. Most defensive plays require your arms to be extended outward from your body's center - even most shot blocking opportunities require your arms to be reaching outward, not straight up - and so I like Sully more.

[KeepRondo]

Bump because this contains actual analysis which is a nice break from posters mouthing off on what they think they see, then calling someone who posts stats to prove the opposite a nerd or some childish junk like that. TP.

It seems like no matter how conservatively we defend the PnR our bigs are just too athletically inadequate to get the job done. The PnR is especially lethal for us when one of the opposing bigs is a long-range shooter, thus dragging a big body out of the heart of the paint and onto the perimeter, where even the most athletic big men in the league struggle recovering to play help D at the rim. In cases where there is a stretch 4 or stretch 5 on the opposing team, the only way our team can stop a roll down the middle is to bring a weakside perimeter defender into the middle of the paint which leaves the corner three wide open. The only way to prevent a kickout is if the guard plays a free safety of sorts and hovers behind the guard, essentially rendering him useless in terms of preventing a backdoor cut or other forward-moving passes, leaving the big man responsible for both the ball handler and the roller vulnerable. The only way to prevent a largely uncontested midrange jumper is to trap the ball handler, which then leaves someone wide open, likely rolling hard down the middle lane. Essentially, we have to aggressively inhibit the opposing team's ability to 1) drive the ball via dribble or pass to the basket, 2) pass out for an open three or 3) pull up for a jumper, and then hope they don't recognize our vulnerability to be scored on by nature of the remaining two methods.

If we plan on keeping Sully and KO we really need a rim protector with mobility. Sullinger is not as bad as KO but he's not a world beater on defense either. If we go with KO I don't even think a cement-footed rim protector like Hibbert or Perkins would get the job done. I think we'd need an athletic freak that could fly in from the weak side or the top of the key and pin the ball to the backboard.

Olynyk is more athletic then Sullinger.

I did see Sullinger moving that big body of his a lot better last game. It was nice to see him lead a break and he was hustling to his spots better. Perhaps Stevens benching him may have worked. Hopefully we see more of it.

He's more mobile than Sully but he has T-Rex arms which prevent him from playing as big as his height suggests. Sully has longer arms which is why I like him more on the defensive end.

I agree the benching was the right move. Let's hope he keeps it up.

Olynyk's standing reach is 2 and a half inches higher then Sullinger.

His wingspan is almost three inches shorter than Sully's. Standing reach doesn't mean all that much to me because there's not many basketball situations where a defender can effectively utilize a straight up and down stance. Most defensive plays require your arms to be extended outward from your body's center - even most shot blocking opportunities require your arms to be reaching outward, not straight up - and so I like Sully more.

I suppose you could look at it like that but Sullinger's arms have to travel further then Olynyk's arms to get to the same point to block a shot. So even if you say its not straight up, which does happen often, Olynyk will still get to the same point faster. His arms are always going to start 3 inches higher. He will also be able to get to higher spots then Sully.

[Celtics4ever]

His wingspan is almost three inches shorter than Sully's. Standing reach doesn't mean all that much to me because there's not many basketball situations where a defender can effectively utilize a straight up and down stance. Most defensive plays require your arms to be extended outward from your body's center - even most shot blocking opportunities require your arms to be reaching outward, not straight up - and so I like Sully more.

We know you like him, I think your related or his father.

Don't quit your dayjob to become a scout or coach.  Longer arms always help though to some degree they can swat at balls, stealing balls and block passing lanes.    Oly is a better athlete than Sully.   But neither are nothing to write home about in this regard as both are inferior athletes.   KO has the higher basketball IQ of the two, I would wager.  KO usually moves his feet better and anticipates better.   Sully is very apt to stand there and watch especially late in games.  Last game, I thought Sully had a great first half and even tried on defense but went back to his old ways in the fourth quarter.  I think Oly has the makings of a nice bench player, the same is true of Sully.   PF is an easy position to upgrade as there are so few true Centers these days.   We can get a guy who plays both O and D well and protect the rim, something Oly and Sully are not complete in performance every game.

Sully is no defender and no shot blocker watch the last 6 minutes of the last game and watch them drive every time they see him in the low post because they have zero respect for his D.  His clutch D is very poor.  Having him in there in the fourth was a blatant tank job.

Clutch Statistics (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Floor Time statistics
Min      Net Pts     Off       Def       Net48      W      L      Win%
  9%       -19     71.3   116.5   -45.2          1   5    16.7%

These stats represent how the team performed in clutch situations while the player was on the floor.   The Net48 number shows the average +/- net points over a full game.


Scoring  By
FG.      FGA      FG%     eFG%      Ast'd      Blk'd     FTM      Pts      48 Min
2.4       7.1     .333     .000       0%          33%     0.0       0.0        0.0

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS15.HTM

He had a great first half but the last six minutes he shot 2-5, was a attacked constantly by the other team at the rim, as he was playing C, Oly was defending PF.   Jack drove past his man and attacked Sully.   This is not just Sully, there was no stop of penetration but other teams know he is a weak link now and attack him and the rim when he is in there.  The charge was pretty bonehead too.  But, he played a solid first half, and improved out of the slump.   But he is no hero and his hero ball antics, cost us.

[MBunge]

Zone.

Use our depth to play more pressure and extend the defense to half or three-quarter court.

Pack the paint and dare teams to hit the outside shot.

Double teams to get the ball out of a player's hands and then deny him the ball.

I'm sure people could come up with other examples.

They are all basic basketball defensive strategies that can be employed during a game.

How many times has Stevens tried any of them this season?

Mike

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Playing exclusively man to man is stupid.

You have to mix it up.

  Wyc must be pretty unhappy that Danny spent all that money on Brad when he could have gotten better coaching from the typical celticblogger.

If this team wins 20something games again, I would guess that Wyc will ask why he's paying so much for Stevens when a longtime NBA assistant could have cost half as much.

And it's easy for us amateurs to second-guess real coaches but even broken clocks are right twice a day.  Here are my complaints with Stevens.

1.  His rotations are very questionable.  He's now had a whole offseason, a training camp, a preseason, a regular season, another offseason, another training camp and 1/4th of another regular season.  He should have a better handle on managing an NBA roster in an NBA game.

2.  He's not a great defensive coach.  He might not be a bad defensive coach but we don't see anything on the floor or in Stevens public comments to indicate he's really good at either designing defenses or at getting max defensive effort out of his players.

3.  He's too nice.  You can't chew on players the way you can college kids but Stevens does not seem to have command of the team.

4.  I think the losing is getting to him.  Starting three different guys at PG in three straight games is a straight up panic move.

5.  The Celtics performance on set plays and out of bounds plays has not looked like the product of a basketball genius.

Now, I think this team in a pitiful East can win 30something games.  If they can't, it is going to be time to start putting less blame on the players and more on Stevens.

Mike

[TheFlex]

His wingspan is almost three inches shorter than Sully's. Standing reach doesn't mean all that much to me because there's not many basketball situations where a defender can effectively utilize a straight up and down stance. Most defensive plays require your arms to be extended outward from your body's center - even most shot blocking opportunities require your arms to be reaching outward, not straight up - and so I like Sully more.

We know you like him, I think your related or his father.

Don't quit your dayjob to become a scout or coach.  Longer arms always help though to some degree they can swat at balls, stealing balls and block passing lanes.    Oly is a better athlete than Sully.   But neither are nothing to write home about in this regard as both are inferior athletes.   KO has the higher basketball IQ of the two, I would wager.  KO usually moves his feet better and anticipates better.   Sully is very apt to stand there and watch especially late in games.  Last game, I thought Sully had a great first half and even tried on defense but went back to his old ways in the fourth quarter.  I think Oly has the makings of a nice bench player, the same is true of Sully.   PF is an easy position to upgrade as there are so few true Centers these days.   We can get a guy who plays both O and D well and protect the rim, something Oly and Sully are not complete in performance every game.

Sully is no defender and no shot blocker watch the last 6 minutes of the last game and watch them drive every time they see him in the low post because they have zero respect for his D.  His clutch D is very poor.  Having him in there in the fourth was a blatant tank job.

Clutch Statistics (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Floor Time statistics
Min      Net Pts     Off       Def       Net48      W      L      Win%
  9%       -19     71.3   116.5   -45.2          1   5    16.7%

These stats represent how the team performed in clutch situations while the player was on the floor.   The Net48 number shows the average +/- net points over a full game.


Scoring  By
FG.      FGA      FG%     eFG%      Ast'd      Blk'd     FTM      Pts      48 Min
2.4       7.1     .333     .000       0%          33%     0.0       0.0        0.0

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS15.HTM

He had a great first half but the last six minutes he shot 2-5, was a attacked constantly by the other team at the rim, as he was playing C, Oly was defending PF.   Jack drove past his man and attacked Sully.   This is not just Sully, there was no stop of penetration but other teams know he is a weak link now and attack him and the rim when he is in there.  The charge was pretty bonehead too.  But, he played a solid first half, and improved out of the slump.   But he is no hero and his hero ball antics, cost us.

Wanna see our Christmas picture? It came out great.

I never said Sully was a shot blocker. I said he's a better defender than Olynyk but no world beater. But I guess you will read what you want to read, and what you want to read is me slobbering over Sully so whenever he has a bad game you can crucify me for it.

I'm not going to argue who is the better defender because you've said what you've had to say and I've said what I've had to say and it doesn't seem like either of us have changed our minds. That's fine with me.

Sully is a poor defender in late game situations, it's impossible not to acknowledge that. When you posted these very stats the other day I responded saying Sully might be tired at the end of the game and that's why his defensive stats slip so drastically. That is my only guess, because otherwise, his on court/off court defensive splits blow KO's out of the water.

I agree he's not a go to scorer. I've said that multiple times. It's not his fault our team stinks and he's one of the three best scorers on it.

[Celtics18]

This is an interesting thread.  It got me to thinking about what we need defensively.  There's been a lot of clamoring for a "rim protector" as the big need for this team.  However, I think that having a big who can hedge and recover on the pick and roll is just as, if not more, important. 

When Kevin Garnett was anchoring our stingy defense of the recent past, hedging and recovering on the pick and roll was his best attribute.  He was one of the best I've ever seen at effectively cutting off the ball handler off the pick and being able to recover to the big rolling to the rim. 

Brandan Wright certainly seems to have the physical capabilities to be able to hedge and recover.  Even Tyler Zeller seems like he ought to be able to be adequate at doing this.

I'm not a fan of the "icing" strategy against the pick and roll.  It strikes me as too conciliatory and not aggressive enough as a defensive game plan. 

I'm not sure what the solution is with the current roster.  Do we need to see our bigs become more effective at "icing" or do we need to start to attempt to do some more "hedging" against the pick and roll?

[littleteapot]

Honestly I think our bigs (other than Zeller) just make decisions SO SLOWLY defensively - that to me is the main reason we gave up on the aggressive hedging/trapping game plan.

Zone dropping should be the easiest on the bigs - there are no rotations, and 90% of the time the big who is zone dropping is primarily concerned about the PNR ball handler. Seeing Olynyk and (at times) Sullinger standing in the middle looking confused while the ball handler is laying the ball in makes me wonder how bad it would be if we asked them to hedge, where they have to worry about the ball handler, the screener slipping the screen, the big on the opposite side I think it would just get worse.

[Vox_Populi]

This is an interesting thread.  It got me to thinking about what we need defensively.  There's been a lot of clamoring for a "rim protector" as the big need for this team.  However, I think that having a big who can hedge and recover on the pick and roll is just as, if not more, important. 

Well, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Elite rim protectors like Hibbert, Bogut and Ibaka were also among the best pick and roll defenders in the NBA. In an ideal world, the Celtics could acquire such a defensive player.

[Rosco917]

Good stuff here, nice post.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Read the time points I posted in the Jack thread. PnR wasn't the issue in that game, at least not for Smart. He was abused off the dribble in iso situations.

[kozlodoev]

Wyc must be pretty unhappy that Danny spent all that money on Brad when he could have gotten better coaching from the typical celticblogger.

This has statement holds more truth than you think it does.

[kozlodoev]

Zone.

Use our depth to play more pressure and extend the defense to half or three-quarter court.

Pack the paint and dare teams to hit the outside shot.

Double teams to get the ball out of a player's hands and then deny him the ball.

I'm sure people could come up with other examples.

They are all basic basketball defensive strategies that can be employed during a game.

How many times has Stevens tried any of them this season?

Mike

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Playing exclusively man to man is stupid.

You have to mix it up.

  Wyc must be pretty unhappy that Danny spent all that money on Brad when he could have gotten better coaching from the typical celticblogger.

If this team wins 20something games again, I would guess that Wyc will ask why he's paying so much for Stevens when a longtime NBA assistant could have cost half as much.

And it's easy for us amateurs to second-guess real coaches but even broken clocks are right twice a day.  Here are my complaints with Stevens.

1.  His rotations are very questionable.  He's now had a whole offseason, a training camp, a preseason, a regular season, another offseason, another training camp and 1/4th of another regular season.  He should have a better handle on managing an NBA roster in an NBA game.

2.  He's not a great defensive coach.  He might not be a bad defensive coach but we don't see anything on the floor or in Stevens public comments to indicate he's really good at either designing defenses or at getting max defensive effort out of his players.

3.  He's too nice.  You can't chew on players the way you can college kids but Stevens does not seem to have command of the team.

4.  I think the losing is getting to him.  Starting three different guys at PG in three straight games is a straight up panic move.

5.  The Celtics performance on set plays and out of bounds plays has not looked like the product of a basketball genius.

Now, I think this team in a pitiful East can win 30something games.  If they can't, it is going to be time to start putting less blame on the players and more on Stevens.

Mike

And last but not least...

6. He has no idea how to work the refs. His courtside demeanor is limited to standing there with a "who pooped in my pants" look. A good NBA coach is a master lobbyist who knows how to goad the officials into makeup calls after a questionable whistle.

He's simply not NBA coaching material at this point, and there's not telling when and if he will be.

[mgent]

....is probably our biggest weakness.

It has nothing to do with Bradley, Rondo, Smart, etc. and everything to do with the bigs.

In the beginning of the season we hardly ever iced on ANY pick.  Stevens even talked about that being a big part of his strategy vs last year.  Needless to say, he put our bigs into a situation they totally couldn't handle and we failed miserably.

I think that decision is what sent us from the 13th best defense in the league last season, to one of the absolute worst to kick off this one (it certainly wasn't losing Hump and Bayless).

I am somewhat surprised Stevens has started icing 3/4 of the time.  Excellent coaching decision.  It has shot us up to 14th in DRTG.  Too bad it took him so dang long to make the change, we might have a .500 record if we started the season with the same defensive system.

[mgent]

Wyc must be pretty unhappy that Danny spent all that money on Brad when he could have gotten better coaching from the typical celticblogger.

This has statement holds more truth than you think it does.

Wow.  If this has even a hint of seriousness, it's probably the saddest thing I've ever heard.