Author Topic: "playing hard"  (Read 2715 times)

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"playing hard"
« on: December 27, 2014, 09:37:13 AM »

Offline winsomme

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"Playing hard" is one of the catchphrases in sports that we always talk about but is difficult to pin down because metrics don't consistently speak to it and we live in the age of metrics.

I would argue that with our recent Big 3 era, Danny built a roster of guys who "played hard." It started with KG, Paul, and Ray, but it spread throughout the roster. Certainly KGs intensity was the starting block, but I think it's pretty fair to say that across the board those teams loved playing basketball.

A rebuild like we are undergoing now is an even more difficult time to evaluate the "playing hard" quality because there's so much losing involved. I would argue, however, it's never more important to get this evaluation right. Danny needs to be on point with acquiring and keeping players that love playing this game. It's the only way we are going to create a new winning culture for the future.

When I look at the current roster, I see a guy like Sully and worry that Danny isn't focused enough on this quality. Sully strikes me as that guy that we've all played a pick up game with that only plays hard when you're feeding him the ball. Otherwise, he's telling everybody how open he was and not hustling up and down the court or telling you how you were supposed to have his guy on defense...

The fact that Sully played as hard as he did with his dad in the crowd last night makes it even worse. Seriously, dude? You need your dad to be there to play that hard? That means that he could play like that night in and night out and simply is not doing it.

I was hoping the benching the other night would be the start of a new direction, but then I heard Sully saying how he met with CBS and he told him that nothing's changed. He just went with who was hot that night...Ugh.

Overall, I worry because it feels like Sully is a centerpiece of this rebuild, and I just don't he "plays hard." Conversely, I think "playing hard" should be the centerpiece of the rebuild, and when that's not happening, you should sit or be moved. Smart, KO, AB, Zeller...These guys all seem to have a high motor, and I want to see that rewarded. Not playing like your hair is on fire one night and then phoning it in the next.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 09:43:47 AM »

Offline greece66

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"Playing hard" is one of the catchphrases in sports that we always talk about but is difficult to pin down because metrics don't consistently speak to it and we live in the age of metrics.

I would argue that with our recent Big 3 era, Danny built a roster of guys who "played hard." It started with KG, Paul, and Ray, but it spread throughout the roster. Certainly KGs intensity was the starting block, but I think it's pretty fair to say that across the board those teams loved playing basketball.

A rebuild like we are undergoing now is an even more difficult time to evaluate the "playing hard" quality because there's so much losing involved. I would argue, however, it's never more important to get this evaluation right. Danny needs to be on point with acquiring and keeping players that love playing this game. It's the only way we are going to create a new winning culture for the future.

When I look at the current roster, I see a guy like Sully and worry that Danny isn't focused enough on this quality. Sully strikes me as that guy that we've all played a pick up game with that only plays hard when you're feeding him the ball. Otherwise, he's telling everybody how open he was and not hustling up and down the court or telling you how you were supposed to have his guy on defense...

The fact that Sully played as hard as he did with his dad in the crowd last night makes it even worse. Seriously, dude? You need your dad to be there to play that hard? That means that he could play like that night in and night out and simply is not doing it.

I was hoping the benching the other night would be the start of a new direction, but then I heard Sully saying how he met with CBS and he told him that nothing's changed. He just went with who was hot that night...Ugh.

Overall, I worry because it feels like Sully is a centerpiece of this rebuild, and I just don't he "plays hard." Conversely, I think "playing hard" should be the centerpiece of the rebuild, and when that's not happening, you should sit or be moved. Smart, KO, AB, Zeller...These guys all seem to have a high motor, and I want to see that rewarded. Not playing like your hair is on fire one night and then phoning it in the next.
If the C's manage to put together a contender in the next few years, it will look very different than the 2008 team. IMO the 2008 analogy is misleading both in terms of how to get back to a contender status and in terms of what a contender should look like.
As for Sully, I am not sure he is so central in our rebuilding as you make him to be. He is our best rebounder and this is enough to earn him a place in the starting 5. But I am sure the coaching staff is aware of the issues you raise. It's not like he is the C's pampered kid or something and if I am not mistaken he was benched for quite some time during the Orlando game.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 09:51:14 AM »

Offline winsomme

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"Playing hard" is one of the catchphrases in sports that we always talk about but is difficult to pin down because metrics don't consistently speak to it and we live in the age of metrics.

I would argue that with our recent Big 3 era, Danny built a roster of guys who "played hard." It started with KG, Paul, and Ray, but it spread throughout the roster. Certainly KGs intensity was the starting block, but I think it's pretty fair to say that across the board those teams loved playing basketball.

A rebuild like we are undergoing now is an even more difficult time to evaluate the "playing hard" quality because there's so much losing involved. I would argue, however, it's never more important to get this evaluation right. Danny needs to be on point with acquiring and keeping players that love playing this game. It's the only way we are going to create a new winning culture for the future.

When I look at the current roster, I see a guy like Sully and worry that Danny isn't focused enough on this quality. Sully strikes me as that guy that we've all played a pick up game with that only plays hard when you're feeding him the ball. Otherwise, he's telling everybody how open he was and not hustling up and down the court or telling you how you were supposed to have his guy on defense...

The fact that Sully played as hard as he did with his dad in the crowd last night makes it even worse. Seriously, dude? You need your dad to be there to play that hard? That means that he could play like that night in and night out and simply is not doing it.

I was hoping the benching the other night would be the start of a new direction, but then I heard Sully saying how he met with CBS and he told him that nothing's changed. He just went with who was hot that night...Ugh.

Overall, I worry because it feels like Sully is a centerpiece of this rebuild, and I just don't he "plays hard." Conversely, I think "playing hard" should be the centerpiece of the rebuild, and when that's not happening, you should sit or be moved. Smart, KO, AB, Zeller...These guys all seem to have a high motor, and I want to see that rewarded. Not playing like your hair is on fire one night and then phoning it in the next.
If the C's manage to put together a contender in the next few years, it will look very different than the 2008 team. IMO the 2008 analogy is misleading both in terms of how to get back to a contender status and in terms of what a contender should look like.
As for Sully, I am not sure he is so central in our rebuilding as you make him to be. He is our best rebounder and this is enough to earn him a place in the starting 5. But I am sure the coaching staff is aware of the issues you raise. It's not like he is the C's pampered kid or something and if I am not mistaken he was benched for quite some time during the Orlando game.

My point about the KG era teams was not that this rebuild should or will look like that just that the quality of play needs to be there...big time talent or not.

There are teams with big time talent that lose (Carmelo and the Knicks) and there are not very talented teams that win (Raptors, Hawks..). I think that with the Rondo trade, Danny is looking at more of a Raptor rebuild (ie a balanced squad with no huge stars). I just hope in doing that he is prioritizing "playing hard" as a keeper quality. Not just skill set. Sully has a nice skill set, but I just don't think he gives the effort night in and night out and that is very concerning for me.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 09:59:18 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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Sully is not a centerpiece, he likely won't be here when this team is a contender again.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 10:00:15 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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This is not meant to be nasty -i worry about Sully "eating hard "and his metabolism off season and as he gets older.He's doesn't have the look of a vegetable and salad guy or he would ever be happy like that.He looks like he would be more comfortable at a table full of offensive lineman.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 10:08:51 AM »

Offline winsomme

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Sully is not a centerpiece, he likely won't be here when this team is a contender again.

He certainly was coming into the season. Plus, he's currently our starting PF...

If not Sully, then who?

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 10:31:04 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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I think your talking about "motor" in a player. Some guys just have a high motor, players like KG play hard all the time, he's wound like a spring. That stuff is catchy on a team, it will get you some extra wins in a long season.

Sully being the centerpiece of the rebuild is scary. He's a talented player, he just plays in spurts. As mentioned above he needs his father had to drive from Ohio to Boston to light a fire under his ass. We're a little over a quarter of the way through the season, not a good sign. Picture the entire future Celtic team playing with the attitude Sully plays with.

Honestly, I think the no trade sign should be taken off his back. (If its there) His defense is mostly bad, even when his offense is clicking. Unless his conditioning improves, I think he has reached his ceiling. I know I pick on him too much. I would love to see him come into camp in top shape, like a professional basketball player should. His entire game would ramp up. He wouldn't have to drag a small child on his back through the game.

I watch KO lighting a fire under himself, he's trying to play with fire in the minutes he gets. So does Smart, like his game or not, he works hard when he's in there. Turner has surprised me, he plays hard no matter where you play him, like he has something to prove. Last, but not least, Zeller is working hard most of the time, Zeller has more upside to his game, Its time to develop his short jumper with a pick and pop, instead of a roll all the time. I think Cleveland would love to have him back.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 11:03:29 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Kinda hard to play hard when you don't know where you stand with the team.

Quickly who is the starting center of the Cs?

Quickly who is the starting PF for the Cs.

Quickly who is the starting SG for the Cs.

Quickly who is the starting PG for the Cs.

For all these positions has the starter earned the spot or is he just being evaluated or showcased for a trade?

If you have answers to the above questions you are way ahead of everyone else.

How do you play hard when you don't know what your role is on the team

Th eonly person who has earned his starting position on this team is Jeff Green. He should be handed the reign as the leader of the team and the go to guy BUT since he does not figure to be here longer than a contender offers a #1 for him he cannot be handed the keys.

This team is a mess right now and it shows in their play, not their talent BUT their play.

At some point CBS will lose this team, that is if he ever 'had' them to begin with.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2014, 11:25:10 AM »

Offline winsomme

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Kinda hard to play hard when you don't know where you stand with the team.

Quickly who is the starting center of the Cs?

Quickly who is the starting PF for the Cs.

Quickly who is the starting SG for the Cs.

Quickly who is the starting PG for the Cs.

For all these positions has the starter earned the spot or is he just being evaluated or showcased for a trade?

If you have answers to the above questions you are way ahead of everyone else.

How do you play hard when you don't know what your role is on the team

Th eonly person who has earned his starting position on this team is Jeff Green. He should be handed the reign as the leader of the team and the go to guy BUT since he does not figure to be here longer than a contender offers a #1 for him he cannot be handed the keys.

This team is a mess right now and it shows in their play, not their talent BUT their play.

At some point CBS will lose this team, that is if he ever 'had' them to begin with.

I would argue with such a revolving and shifting set of responsibilities that "playing hard" is the one thing that every player on the team right now is in control of.

They can't really define their roles or create chemistry because the rotations are shifting so much, but every player who steps on the floor CAN control how hard they are playing.

Personally, that's what I'm looking for most at this point. It's hard to criticize a player's game because the roles aren't defined. However, if you're not playing hard right now, I think it's very revealing.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2014, 01:58:53 PM »

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Most players have trouble maintaining high levels of effort + focus when they are in an unhappy situation. Especially young players.

I don't think Sully likes playing for Brad Stevens.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2014, 02:04:13 PM »

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Overall, I worry because it feels like Sully is a centerpiece of this rebuild
I don't think the Celtics have any centerpiece to this rebuild yet. Nobody who is a clear cut guy to be a building block to the next team.

I think the Celtics are pretty much starting over with a blank canvas. 1-2 of the young players might break through or they could fall flat on their face. The ugly truth of it is that none of them have done enough to be considered a centerpiece to a rebuild yet.

I am not sure any of the players on the team right now are still going to be here in 4-5 years time from now.

Re: "playing hard"
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 02:10:22 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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If I had to pick two young guys who are most likely to emerge as centerpieces for this team going forward, I'm going with Smart and Olynyk.
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson