Fun time to be a Celtics fan I promise you I havent had a drink yet

[oldtype]

We'll get to see a lot of young players grow. Aside from contending, that's the next best thing.

Imagine being Brooklyn.

[Granath]

Well I've had a lot of drinks and until Rondo says "There was no way on Earth I was coming back to the Celts, even if they offered me the most money" I won't believe he wasn't coming back.

And there's no reason for RR to ever say that now, so I suppose you'll never believe he wasn't coming back. I don't see any proof to believe that Rondo was coming back.

Exactly. We had the most money to offer him. No trade demands on his part. He signed with us before for a reasonable deal. Exactly. I will never believe he wasn't coming back. Given a reasonable offer he would have been back. So would have Perk.

He's not coming back.

Since Danny was in the same building as RR day in and day out and it's his job to know whether or not a player is coming back (and worth the price they're asking), I'll have to trust his judgement rather than inventing hypotheses to fit a pre-established conclusion. It is logical to conclude that either Danny had good reason to believe that Rondo was not coming back or that he didn't want to spend the money it would take to resign Rondo. On the latter, given Rondo's play post-ACL I can't blame him. I wouldn't want to spend max money on a player who is probably not even in the top 10 at his position and no longer a top 50 player in the NBA.

Of course, maybe Danny is just vindictive and has it out for RR. Maybe he has a secret handshake with Rondo who then returns this summer in FA. Maybe Rondo's career is revitalized in Dallas and he returns to his previous form which was worthy of a max deal. Me, I'm a Occam's Razor kind of guy. The simplest solution is often the correct one and thus that wouldn't involve Danny being massively incompetent or somehow out to get Rondo. He moved Rondo because he figured that was the best long-term value he was going to get, which would indicate that he didn't think Rondo was either going to stay or was worth paying to stay. But that's just me - I'm a logical kind of person - and that doesn't prevent anyone else from believing something different.

It was clear Rondo was going to go to free agency. That's when we offer him more than anyone else can offer him because we have his bird rights. Then see what others offer and see if he takes less money and years.
If Danny wanted to not offer any money to the assist and pg rebound leader and good defender in favor of a rookie pg who looks a lot more like Marcus Banks than D Wade....well then in that case in Danny I don't trust.

So the Cs have his Bird rights. Big deal.

If Rondo wanted to go elsewhere, he would just force a trade much like Lebron just did from Miami. What'd they get? Two really low first round picks and a trade exception. What did Danny just get? A role player, a 1st round pick that projects to be better than the Cleveland pick and a trade exception. So when you look at what Miami got for the best player in the NBA versus what the Celtics got for Rondo, Danny looks like he swung a pretty good deal. That deal would be worse during this summer if Rondo decided to walk.

So if it is clear Rondo was going to FA and your plan is that you have to pay him the highest dollar value PLUS hope he doesn't force a trade, that's a pretty crappy plan IMO. Seriously, thank you for proving my point for me.

As far as his play, Rondo still does a great job of assists and rebounds but the negatives now start to really cut into the positives. There's a reason the Cs haven't played as well with Rondo on the court for 3 years now. His defense has been pretty lackluster by every single measurable statistic. His shooting is so bad it's pathetic. He's become such a liability from the line that 'hack a Rondo" has become a viable strategy. His play in the 4th quarter of close games has become atrocious. His assist to turnover ratio is going the wrong way in both directions - assists are down, turnovers are up. He doesn't get to the line even half as much as he did early in his career. PERs down, VORPs down, ORtg - DRtg is negative for the first time in his career. The list goes on and on.

Yes, Rondo is a master of creating points. But he's giving up a ton of points too - defensively, turnovers and his shooting all cost his team points. That doesn't mean he's a bad player, but he's not elite. As has been pointed out on this very blog, it's fairly easy to name 10 PGs who are playing better than Rajon Rondo right now. So now if the plan is to offer the most money AND hope he doesn't force a trade all for a player who isn't even all that great anymore (or you're banking on him to dramatically improve even though he's almost two years out from the ACL injury now), the plan outright sucks in my opinion. I'd much rather have the birds in hand - a 1st round pick, a role player with value and a TPE that everyone in the league is drooling over.

Riiiiggghhht. That's how free agency works. You sign them. After you sign them they don't try to force a trade. Because otherwise they wouldn't sign with you. Um. Yeah.

Since you're obviously unaware of the sign-and-trade tendency in the NBA, I can now properly judge your knowledge of the subject at hand and thus accordingly assign the proper value to your comments. I'm truly amazed. I would figure that after 11,000 posts you'd at least know the basic workings of the NBA.

Poor supposition on my part I suppose.

[Eja117]

Well I've had a lot of drinks and until Rondo says "There was no way on Earth I was coming back to the Celts, even if they offered me the most money" I won't believe he wasn't coming back.

And there's no reason for RR to ever say that now, so I suppose you'll never believe he wasn't coming back. I don't see any proof to believe that Rondo was coming back.

Exactly. We had the most money to offer him. No trade demands on his part. He signed with us before for a reasonable deal. Exactly. I will never believe he wasn't coming back. Given a reasonable offer he would have been back. So would have Perk.

He's not coming back.

Since Danny was in the same building as RR day in and day out and it's his job to know whether or not a player is coming back (and worth the price they're asking), I'll have to trust his judgement rather than inventing hypotheses to fit a pre-established conclusion. It is logical to conclude that either Danny had good reason to believe that Rondo was not coming back or that he didn't want to spend the money it would take to resign Rondo. On the latter, given Rondo's play post-ACL I can't blame him. I wouldn't want to spend max money on a player who is probably not even in the top 10 at his position and no longer a top 50 player in the NBA.

Of course, maybe Danny is just vindictive and has it out for RR. Maybe he has a secret handshake with Rondo who then returns this summer in FA. Maybe Rondo's career is revitalized in Dallas and he returns to his previous form which was worthy of a max deal. Me, I'm a Occam's Razor kind of guy. The simplest solution is often the correct one and thus that wouldn't involve Danny being massively incompetent or somehow out to get Rondo. He moved Rondo because he figured that was the best long-term value he was going to get, which would indicate that he didn't think Rondo was either going to stay or was worth paying to stay. But that's just me - I'm a logical kind of person - and that doesn't prevent anyone else from believing something different.

It was clear Rondo was going to go to free agency. That's when we offer him more than anyone else can offer him because we have his bird rights. Then see what others offer and see if he takes less money and years.
If Danny wanted to not offer any money to the assist and pg rebound leader and good defender in favor of a rookie pg who looks a lot more like Marcus Banks than D Wade....well then in that case in Danny I don't trust.

So the Cs have his Bird rights. Big deal.

If Rondo wanted to go elsewhere, he would just force a trade much like Lebron just did from Miami. What'd they get? Two really low first round picks and a trade exception. What did Danny just get? A role player, a 1st round pick that projects to be better than the Cleveland pick and a trade exception. So when you look at what Miami got for the best player in the NBA versus what the Celtics got for Rondo, Danny looks like he swung a pretty good deal. That deal would be worse during this summer if Rondo decided to walk.

So if it is clear Rondo was going to FA and your plan is that you have to pay him the highest dollar value PLUS hope he doesn't force a trade, that's a pretty crappy plan IMO. Seriously, thank you for proving my point for me.

As far as his play, Rondo still does a great job of assists and rebounds but the negatives now start to really cut into the positives. There's a reason the Cs haven't played as well with Rondo on the court for 3 years now. His defense has been pretty lackluster by every single measurable statistic. His shooting is so bad it's pathetic. He's become such a liability from the line that 'hack a Rondo" has become a viable strategy. His play in the 4th quarter of close games has become atrocious. His assist to turnover ratio is going the wrong way in both directions - assists are down, turnovers are up. He doesn't get to the line even half as much as he did early in his career. PERs down, VORPs down, ORtg - DRtg is negative for the first time in his career. The list goes on and on.

Yes, Rondo is a master of creating points. But he's giving up a ton of points too - defensively, turnovers and his shooting all cost his team points. That doesn't mean he's a bad player, but he's not elite. As has been pointed out on this very blog, it's fairly easy to name 10 PGs who are playing better than Rajon Rondo right now. So now if the plan is to offer the most money AND hope he doesn't force a trade all for a player who isn't even all that great anymore (or you're banking on him to dramatically improve even though he's almost two years out from the ACL injury now), the plan outright sucks in my opinion. I'd much rather have the birds in hand - a 1st round pick, a role player with value and a TPE that everyone in the league is drooling over.

Riiiiggghhht. That's how free agency works. You sign them. After you sign them they don't try to force a trade. Because otherwise they wouldn't sign with you. Um. Yeah.

Since you're obviously unaware of the sign-and-trade tendency in the NBA, I can now properly judge your knowledge of the subject at hand and thus accordingly assign the proper value to your comments. I'm truly amazed. I would figure that after 11,000 posts you'd at least know the basic workings of the NBA.

Poor supposition on my part I suppose.

Sorry, but your bolded sentence made no sense whatsoever. Perhaps you're trying to say he would sign for the most he could and then a couple years later pull a Melo. But you always have to worry about that with any player you sign. All players could at least try to force a trade at any time. Second the Celts don't have to participate in sign and trades if they don't want to. If the player is trying to do a Lebron then the other team is the one paying him, not us.
Make your bolded sentences make a modicum of sense and we can have a conversation. I have never heard of a player ever signing in FA for top dollar and then turn around 45 seconds later and say "Now trade me" and of course even if Rondo tried to do that and he's as terrible as you say there'd be no market for him, and presumably his agent would know that. And further, even if he did that the Celts still wouldn't have to trade him if they didn't want to. The Mavs are well aware Rondo will be a free agent and they aren't concerned about any doomsday scenarios. Lebron's free agency didn't destroy the Heat or Cavs, and they would have been dumb to trade him before free agency in any case and not try to resign him.

[Granath]

Sorry, but your bolded sentence made no sense whatsoever. Perhaps you're trying to say he would sign for the most he could and then a couple years later pull a Melo. But you always have to worry about that with any player you sign. All players could at least try to force a trade at any time. Second the Celts don't have to participate in sign and trades if they don't want to. If the player is trying to do a Lebron then the other team is the one paying him, not us.
Make your bolded sentences make a modicum of sense and we can have a conversation. I have never heard of a player ever signing in FA for top dollar and then turn around 45 seconds later and say "Now trade me" and of course even if Rondo tried to do that and he's as terrible as you say there'd be no market for him, and presumably his agent would know that. And further, even if he did that the Celts still wouldn't have to trade him if they didn't want to. The Mavs are well aware Rondo will be a free agent and they aren't concerned about any doomsday scenarios. Lebron's free agency didn't destroy the Heat or Cavs, and they would have been dumb to trade him before free agency in any case and not try to resign him.

No, it makes sense but let me try to help you through it. Let's start with your admission that "It was clear Rondo was going to go to free agency. That's when we offer him more than anyone else..." Your words, not mine.

So your genius plan is to let Rondo go to FA. You offer him the highest salary of anyone in order to try to keep him. So you're assuming that:

1. No team would offer as much as the Celtics even if they could. So the Celtics are the highest bidder and in essence are overpaying for his services.

2. If #1 is not correct and other teams would pay Rondo the max if they could, you then have to hope that he doesn't force a sign-and-trade (aka Lebron from Miami). If this were to happen, the Celtics would have a lot less leverage and the deal they receive would be considerably worse than the one they just got. In your imaginary world athletes may not do this, but in the NBA this happens quite often. Team A holds the Bird rights, Team B is willing to pay that salary, player decides to play for Team B and forces a trade from A to B where A gets very little in comparison.

3. Of course, this is also assuming that Rondo is driven by money and that he will take the highest deal rather than decide to leave to play for a contender anway.

4. Alternatively, there is a chance Rondo would stay and take a hometown discount. Of course, if this were the case it is extremely probable that he would have already been resigned. To believe this scenario, you must believe that Danny either hates Rondo or is so incompetent as to defy belief.

So overpay, get less, get nothing or irrationally hope for a miracle. Great plan. Fantastic!

 

[Eja117]

You always have to risk being the highest bidder. That's how it works.

Your entire premise (and the premise of a lot of people here) is that Rondo is terrible and nobody would want to pay him so much. If you think he's such a bad player why are you so sure someone will offer him so much money?

I fully understand that players like Lebron force sign and trades. Correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the issue there was that unlike this several teams had tried very very hard to get very very far under the cap so they could sign...in the case of the Heat...not one, but TWO top free agents. They then came to agreements with them and THEN the Raps and Heat both got deals where they got SOMETHING, because it was the best deal for them at that point, but they didn't HAVE to agree to it. You can let your free agents go in free agency. It's allowed. You don't have to help them. In that case Bron and Bosh and D Wade ALL signed for less than they could have in order to play together. Not sure if Rondo will take a discount to play with a good team.

Yes. If Rondo came to such a deal with another team he could in that sense "force" a sign and trade, where we get very little, but we got so little in this trade that it's hard to imagine getting less. I would just refuse to play ball. I'd just say "I'm totally totally prepared to let you go for nothing. I'll just take the money off my cap. I do not need another conditional first or a late 2nd. I have like 9 of them. Do not expect me to help you leave the Celts. If I get an offer I like that I think helps us maybe I do that, but nobody is forcing me into anything."

Last you are under the impression we got a "good" trade. We got nothing of value whatsoever at all. We got a first next year. Whoop de doo. Hello Fab Melo. We got a player who will be a free agent at the end of this year...just like Rondo. We got two pretty bad backups.  Might as well have just gotten a handful of magic beans.

That's what I need to be afraid of? Getting even less than we got? Ohhhh. A trade exception! Ohhhhh! All championship teams are made with that!  Maybe if Ainge does something with it I'll reconsider. Till then we got crud.

[Csfan1984]

You always have to risk being the highest bidder. That's how it works.

Your entire premise (and the premise of a lot of people here) is that Rondo is terrible and nobody would want to pay him so much. If you think he's such a bad player why are you so sure someone will offer him so much money?

I fully understand that players like Lebron force sign and trades. Correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the issue there was that unlike this several teams had tried very very hard to get very very far under the cap so they could sign...in the case of the Heat...not one, but TWO top free agents. They then came to agreements with them and THEN the Raps and Heat both got deals where they got SOMETHING, because it was the best deal for them at that point, but they didn't HAVE to agree to it. You can let your free agents go in free agency. It's allowed. You don't have to help them. In that case Bron and Bosh and D Wade ALL signed for less than they could have in order to play together. Not sure if Rondo will take a discount to play with a good team.

Yes. If Rondo came to such a deal with another team he could in that sense "force" a sign and trade, where we get very little, but we got so little in this trade that it's hard to imagine getting less. I would just refuse to play ball. I'd just say "I'm totally totally prepared to let you go for nothing. I'll just take the money off my cap. I do not need another conditional first or a late 2nd. I have like 9 of them. Do not expect me to help you leave the Celts. If I get an offer I like that I think helps us maybe I do that, but nobody is forcing me into anything."

Last you are under the impression we got a "good" trade. We got nothing of value whatsoever at all. We got a first next year. Whoop de doo. Hello Fab Melo. We got a player who will be a free agent at the end of this year...just like Rondo. We got two pretty bad backups.  Might as well have just gotten a handful of magic beans.

That's what I need to be afraid of? Getting even less than we got? Ohhhh. A trade exception! Ohhhhh! All championship teams are made with that!  Maybe if Ainge does something with it I'll reconsider. Till then we got crud.

If you were going to let him walk or do a sign and trade then likely you are still rebuilding. Rondo being here is 4-6 more wins and 3-4 worse spot pick. What is the point of keeping him then? C's pick up a first, expiring and move on. You heard what Perk (and Jackie) said he wanted out. Rondo didn't want to go through the year sharing playing time and losing. He would not even play hard even in a contract year for us. You wanted to keep a guy like that? Also he was horrible scoring, at the line and with his TOs this year he killed his own value.

[Granath]

You always have to risk being the highest bidder. That's how it works.

Your entire premise (and the premise of a lot of people here) is that Rondo is terrible....

No one has claimed that. Read more carefully before bothering to answer rather than try to project what you want people to say.

Due to the lack of your comprehension of what people are actually writing the rest of your post isn't worth responding to because your entire supposition is incorrect. Please try again.

[Eja117]

You always have to risk being the highest bidder. That's how it works.

Your entire premise (and the premise of a lot of people here) is that Rondo is terrible....

No one has claimed that. Read more carefully before bothering to answer rather than try to project what you want people to say.

Due to the lack of your comprehension of what people are actually writing the rest of your post isn't worth responding to because your entire supposition is incorrect. Please try again.

Ohhhh...so you're now say he issss a very good player, but despite having the most money to offer him we shouldn't make any attempt to keep him or we should just surrender to the powers that be. Orrrrr....he's a good player, but jusssst not good enough, that we should settle for a crud offer.
I speak 3 languages pretty well and two more well enough...the communication issue here might be on you. Any time you want to stop talking in circles, take responsibility for what you say, and stop trying to have it both ways, feel free.

[Granath]

You always have to risk being the highest bidder. That's how it works.

Your entire premise (and the premise of a lot of people here) is that Rondo is terrible....

No one has claimed that. Read more carefully before bothering to answer rather than try to project what you want people to say.

Due to the lack of your comprehension of what people are actually writing the rest of your post isn't worth responding to because your entire supposition is incorrect. Please try again.

Ohhhh...so you're now say he issss a very good player, but despite having the most money to offer him we shouldn't make any attempt to keep him or we should just surrender to the powers that be. Orrrrr....he's a good player, but jusssst not good enough, that we should settle for a crud offer.
I speak 3 languages pretty well and two more well enough...the communication issue here might be on you. Any time you want to stop talking in circles, take responsibility for what you say, and stop trying to have it both ways, feel free.

There are plenty of posts online that describe my opinion of RR. Please feel free to use the search function. I'm assuming you know how to do that. Feel free to then take issue with my analysis of Rajon Rondo and please point out where I've described him as "terrible".

As far as it being a crud offer, good luck with a better one. Compare that to what Miami got for Lebron and tell me how cruddy it is. Oh, that's right, that point has been raised before but you've continually failed to address it...like most of the points raised.

While you claim to speak multiple languages, you don't know how to communicate. You assume, obfuscate and distort, which means that either you don't understand or purposely try to distort because you can't address the issues raised as they are presented. That's your problem, not mine. I have no desire to turn this into a personal peeing contest, but I refuse to humor someone who seems to want to continually twist posts rather than address the issues presented. It's a pretty juvenile form of intellectual dishonesty and one that is unbecoming.

[Eja117]

You always have to risk being the highest bidder. That's how it works.

Your entire premise (and the premise of a lot of people here) is that Rondo is terrible....

No one has claimed that. Read more carefully before bothering to answer rather than try to project what you want people to say.

Due to the lack of your comprehension of what people are actually writing the rest of your post isn't worth responding to because your entire supposition is incorrect. Please try again.

Ohhhh...so you're now say he issss a very good player, but despite having the most money to offer him we shouldn't make any attempt to keep him or we should just surrender to the powers that be. Orrrrr....he's a good player, but jusssst not good enough, that we should settle for a crud offer.
I speak 3 languages pretty well and two more well enough...the communication issue here might be on you. Any time you want to stop talking in circles, take responsibility for what you say, and stop trying to have it both ways, feel free.

There are plenty of posts online that describe my opinion of RR. Please feel free to use the search function. I'm assuming you know how to do that. Feel free to then take issue with my analysis of Rajon Rondo and please point out where I've described him as "terrible".

As far as it being a crud offer, good luck with a better one. Compare that to what Miami got for Lebron and tell me how cruddy it is. Oh, that's right, that point has been raised before but you've continually failed to address it...like most of the points raised.

While you claim to speak multiple languages, you don't know how to communicate. You assume, obfuscate and distort, which means that either you don't understand or purposely try to distort because you can't address the issues raised as they are presented. That's your problem, not mine. I have no desire to turn this into a personal peeing contest, but I refuse to humor someone who seems to want to continually twist posts rather than address the issues presented. It's a pretty juvenile form of intellectual dishonesty and one that is unbecoming.

A "better one" is letting him walk, which I have said many times.

Look. I get it. You say I distort what you say and project and whatnot. Kinda hard to do that when you don't actually say anything other than "nu uh".  You want me to try to communicate on your incredibly high intellectual level? Um. Ok. Mooo? Any time you want to try to keep up go for it.

[nickagneta]

Having been through this phase in Celtics history a few times(late 70's, early and mid 90's and mid 2000's) the uniqueness of watching young players grow for years and years and hoping management has made the right talent evaluations that help to make trades easier to add to the young talent and make the contender has grown old to me.

I will be 50 in March. I want to see another title run sometime before I am 60-70 years old and I just don't have faith that that is going to happen as I don't feel one player on this team will be around for that next championship run. I just don't see the talent level being there on any of these players that make them an important part of the future of this team(maybe Marcus Smart excepted but even then his offensive struggles in both college and now don't give me much hope).

This long term tear down of the team is going to lead to a longer term rebuild of the team and I just fear its another decade before we see respectability again. And that sucks for me. If I was a lot younger I would probably be excited to watch the youth but not now. I want winning basketball, not tanking and development of both very flawed young players and an inexperienced coach that is still learning the NBA

[Eja117]

Having been through this phase in Celtics history a few times(late 70's, early and mid 90's and mid 2000's) the uniqueness of watching young players grow for years and years and hoping management has made the right talent evaluations that help to make trades easier to add to the young talent and make the contender has grown old to me.

I will be 50 in March. I want to see another title run sometime before I am 60-70 years old and I just don't have faith that that is going to happen as I don't feel one player on this team will be around for that next championship run. I just don't see the talent level being there on any of these players that make them an important part of the future of this team(maybe Marcus Smart excepted but even then his offensive struggles in both college and now don't give me much hope.

This long term tear down of the team is going to lead to a longer term rebuild of the team and I just fear its another decade before we see respectability again. And that sucks for me. If I was a lot younger I would probably be excited to watch the youth but not now. I want winning basketball, not tanking and development of both very flawed young players and an inexperienced coach that is still learning the NBA

Tp.

[gpap]

Just one thing left to say:

GodZeller!!!!!!!!!!

[D.o.s.]

Having been through this phase in Celtics history a few times(late 70's, early and mid 90's and mid 2000's) the uniqueness of watching young players grow for years and years and hoping management has made the right talent evaluations that help to make trades easier to add to the young talent and make the contender has grown old to me.

I will be 50 in March. I want to see another title run sometime before I am 60-70 years old and I just don't have faith that that is going to happen as I don't feel one player on this team will be around for that next championship run. I just don't see the talent level being there on any of these players that make them an important part of the future of this team(maybe Marcus Smart excepted but even then his offensive struggles in both college and now don't give me much hope).

This long term tear down of the team is going to lead to a longer term rebuild of the team and I just fear its another decade before we see respectability again. And that sucks for me. If I was a lot younger I would probably be excited to watch the youth but not now. I want winning basketball, not tanking and development of both very flawed young players and an inexperienced coach that is still learning the NBA

It could be worse -- you could've been a Red Sox fan over the last century.

[nickagneta]

Having been through this phase in Celtics history a few times(late 70's, early and mid 90's and mid 2000's) the uniqueness of watching young players grow for years and years and hoping management has made the right talent evaluations that help to make trades easier to add to the young talent and make the contender has grown old to me.

I will be 50 in March. I want to see another title run sometime before I am 60-70 years old and I just don't have faith that that is going to happen as I don't feel one player on this team will be around for that next championship run. I just don't see the talent level being there on any of these players that make them an important part of the future of this team(maybe Marcus Smart excepted but even then his offensive struggles in both college and now don't give me much hope).

This long term tear down of the team is going to lead to a longer term rebuild of the team and I just fear its another decade before we see respectability again. And that sucks for me. If I was a lot younger I would probably be excited to watch the youth but not now. I want winning basketball, not tanking and development of both very flawed young players and an inexperienced coach that is still learning the NBA

It could be worse -- you could've been a Red Sox fan over the last century.

30 years of Red Sox suckitude was enough for me my friend.