BS Report: Lowe on Rondo

[tazzmaniac]

Mavs look like they're about to go 2-2 with Rondo tonight.

Waiting for Rondo haters to dissect this one and undoubtedly point to the W only the result of playing the Lakers...probably the same members who will ignore how bad the Mavs defense was before Rondo and still is with Rondo, and the fact that the Lakers beat the league's best team and stayed competitive on Christmas.

The Mavs barely beat the Lakers without Kobe.
The Lakers grabbed 63 rebounds.

Some would argue the Lakers are currently a better team without Kobe playing.  I'm sure your failure to mention Rondo's stat line (21 pts, 7 ast, 8 reb) was an oversight.  Rondo's starting to establish a good rapport with Tyson Chandler.  The Mavs biggest problem is Chandler can't play all 48 minutes.  The Lakers turned into an offensive rebounding juggernaut with Chandler on the bench.  The Mavs aren't going anywhere if they don't get a backup defense/rebounding big.

[vinnie]

I am neither a Rondo hater nor a Rondo lover. I think he is a really good point guard who was by far the best player on the Celtics. I also understand why they had to trade him because he likely was not going to stick around and was sick of losing. That said, I get sick of the Johnny one notes -- and they know who they are -- who bash the guy every chance they get. The guy leads the league in assists and leads all guards in rebounding, that is a fact. The guy makes his teammates better -- that is a fact. They guy also is a terrible free throw shooter and a spotty jump shooter, that is a fact. The Celtics stunk with him and the Celtics stink without him.

[Eja117]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

[LarBrd33]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

[greece66]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

Comparing RR to Russell was the most ROFL thing I've read in this forum a long time. I appreciate the fact that many people here only started watching bball ca. 2008, but still, come on, show some respect for one of the greatest sportsmen ever. The bold bit of LarBrd33 comment is IMO spot on, although a bit skewed on RR's negative side. Under the right circumstances RR can flourish.

[Eddie20]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

Comparing RR to Russell was the most ROFL thing I've read in this forum a long time. I appreciate the fact that many people here only started watching bball ca. 2008, but still, come on, show some respect for one of the greatest sportsmen ever. The bold bit of LarBrd33 comment is IMO spot on, although a bit skewed on RR's negative side. Under the right circumstances RR can flourish.

I agree and have said numerous time how inconsequential Rondo leading guards in rebounds truly is. It doesn't move the needle much, sort of like the being the league leader in blocks for a guard or the center that gets the most steals.

[Rondo9]

For the last time he's not saying rondo is like bill Russell he's just using a limited player as an example of a player overcoming his weakness Rondo can thrive on most systems you just surround him with the right players

[BballTim]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

  According to basketballreference on/off numbers Wallace's regular season on/off numbers during that title year was +4.4. Rondo's had 4 seasons in his career better than "a top 5 player who makes a major impact on the game". Unsurprising if you've followed much of his career. If you look at Wallace and Rondo's career on/off numbers Wallace is a little better during the season and Rondo's a little better in the playoffs (again, unsurprising if you've seen much of their respective play).

 Also, I'd be curious about why you think Rondo's assists are empty, despite the ample evidence we've seen over the years that the team scores better off of his passes than they do otherwise. Repeating hyperbolic claims made by others who don't like him, or just an attempt to dismiss numbers you don't like?

[MBunge]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

  According to basketballreference on/off numbers Wallace's regular season on/off numbers during that title year was +4.4. Rondo's had 4 seasons in his career better than "a top 5 player who makes a major impact on the game". Unsurprising if you've followed much of his career. If you look at Wallace and Rondo's career on/off numbers Wallace is a little better during the season and Rondo's a little better in the playoffs (again, unsurprising if you've seen much of their respective play).

 Also, I'd be curious about why you think Rondo's assists are empty, despite the ample evidence we've seen over the years that the team scores better off of his passes than they do otherwise. Repeating hyperbolic claims made by others who don't like him, or just an attempt to dismiss numbers you don't like?

Wait.

We've got more than 50 games left this season.  That's more than enough time for Rondo's absence to register in the stats.  If Rondo has the impact on the game you believe, it should be obvious in the stats for both Dallas and Boston.

Mike

[BballTim]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

Comparing RR to Russell was the most ROFL thing I've read in this forum a long time. I appreciate the fact that many people here only started watching bball ca. 2008, but still, come on, show some respect for one of the greatest sportsmen ever. The bold bit of LarBrd33 comment is IMO spot on, although a bit skewed on RR's negative side. Under the right circumstances RR can flourish.

I agree and have said numerous time how inconsequential Rondo leading guards in rebounds truly is. It doesn't move the needle much, sort of like the being the league leader in blocks for a guard or the center that gets the most steals.

  It's more like the center who leads the league in assists.The number of blocks any point guard gets is very small, so's the difference between first and league average compared to rebounds. In the grand scheme of things, a point guard getting 3 or so rebounds more than the average for his position probably means as much as a center getting 3 or so more rebounds than the average center.

[BballTim]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

  According to basketballreference on/off numbers Wallace's regular season on/off numbers during that title year was +4.4. Rondo's had 4 seasons in his career better than "a top 5 player who makes a major impact on the game". Unsurprising if you've followed much of his career. If you look at Wallace and Rondo's career on/off numbers Wallace is a little better during the season and Rondo's a little better in the playoffs (again, unsurprising if you've seen much of their respective play).

 Also, I'd be curious about why you think Rondo's assists are empty, despite the ample evidence we've seen over the years that the team scores better off of his passes than they do otherwise. Repeating hyperbolic claims made by others who don't like him, or just an attempt to dismiss numbers you don't like?

Wait.

We've got more than 50 games left this season.  That's more than enough time for Rondo's absence to register in the stats.  If Rondo has the impact on the game you believe, it should be obvious in the stats for both Dallas and Boston.

Mike

  There's 50 games left but he's played over 500. I don't think that the great change in his numbers that you're hoping for will come to pass this season.

[BballTim]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

Comparing RR to Russell was the most ROFL thing I've read in this forum a long time.

  Did anyone compare Rondo to Russell? I'd guess not.

[Onslaught]

I am neither a Rondo hater nor a Rondo lover. I think he is a really good point guard who was by far the best player on the Celtics. I also understand why they had to trade him because he likely was not going to stick around and was sick of losing. That said, I get sick of the Johnny one notes -- and they know who they are -- who bash the guy every chance they get. The guy leads the league in assists and leads all guards in rebounding, that is a fact. The guy makes his teammates better -- that is a fact. They guy also is a terrible free throw shooter and a spotty jump shooter, that is a fact. The Celtics stunk with him and the Celtics stink without him.

I agree 100%. I don't understand why people want to talk about him so much. If you didn't like him then be happy, he's gone. If you did like him then it kind of stinks but we all knew it was probably coming.

[MBunge]

And if Rondo played with the same defensive effort as Smart, the love for him in this forum would have been neverending, no matter how poorly he shot from the field.

Mike

  His 4 years on all defense teams show the opposite to be the case. There was very little differentiation between the criticisms of his defense last year and the years he was first team all-defense. And there was no difference in the type or number of complaints about his shooting.

Agreed. Bill Russell's fg and ft% was horrid. If he had played in the Celtics Blog era people would have continually called for trading him.

Please explain how Rondo is on the same level as Bill Russell.

No. You explain it. Why should I explain something I didn't say?

I was being facetious.

Don't bring up stats of completely different players to defend Rondo.  Try a similar player.  Apples to apples.

It's apples to apples in terms of how Bill would be treated on this blog if he played today. Omg....look at his free throw percentage! Omg!

No... a poor man's Russell was Ben Wallace in his prime.  He had a quantifiable impact on his team.  Every time he stepped on the court, the defense was dramatically better.  You can look at advanced stats that will show you that Ben Wallace was one of the 5 best players in the league the year the Pistons won the title with him.  He made a major impact on the game.  His skill set was crucial in producing wins.

Rondo is an interesting player.  He's fun to watch.  He's definitely a skilled player, but his skills (empty assists, point guard rebounding) are not necessarily priority NBA skills.  He doesn't impact the game nearly as much as we wanted to believe.  The advanced stats do not favor him in any way.  There's some limited examples that back up the idea that he actually makes an offense worse.  The over team success post-Rondo will be about even, imo.

Forget about Rondo vs Russell.   Ben Wallace in his prime was a far more significant player than Rondo in his prime.

  According to basketballreference on/off numbers Wallace's regular season on/off numbers during that title year was +4.4. Rondo's had 4 seasons in his career better than "a top 5 player who makes a major impact on the game". Unsurprising if you've followed much of his career. If you look at Wallace and Rondo's career on/off numbers Wallace is a little better during the season and Rondo's a little better in the playoffs (again, unsurprising if you've seen much of their respective play).

 Also, I'd be curious about why you think Rondo's assists are empty, despite the ample evidence we've seen over the years that the team scores better off of his passes than they do otherwise. Repeating hyperbolic claims made by others who don't like him, or just an attempt to dismiss numbers you don't like?

Wait.

We've got more than 50 games left this season.  That's more than enough time for Rondo's absence to register in the stats.  If Rondo has the impact on the game you believe, it should be obvious in the stats for both Dallas and Boston.

Mike

  There's 50 games left but he's played over 500. I don't think that the great change in his numbers that you're hoping for will come to pass this season.

Not in Rondo's numbers.  In the teams' numbers.  If Boston, in particular, can score at the same rate and same efficiency without Rondo as with, that would seem fairly strong proof that Rondo's stats were empty and his impact on winning and losing negligible.

Mike

[guava_wrench]

Not in Rondo's numbers.  In the teams' numbers.  If Boston, in particular, can score at the same rate and same efficiency without Rondo as with, that would seem fairly strong proof that Rondo's stats were empty and his impact on winning and losing negligible.

Mike

I agree that team numbers are what tell the real story. If the team sees a decline in efficiency on offense or defense without a player, that is a clearer story than the player's actual numbers since players can rack up numbers at the team's expense. If we see inverse trends in Dallas, than we have good reason to accept a particular narrative.

While I'm not sure where we are, Dallas is still having issues. A close win at home against LAL without Kobe and a close win at home against SA without Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard, Green, or Splitter bookending 2 losses is not yet a vote of confidence. I believe Dallas had their full roster for those games, though Dirk has dealt with some illness in the last games.