Author Topic: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN  (Read 56657 times)

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Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2014, 11:55:37 PM »

Offline Jonny CC

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Right now the Celts can use a "me me me" guy like waiters.

No, the Celtics don't need a guy like that and I don't think that such a player will fit under Stevens.

BS tried to make JCraw to be a guy like that. In the beginning of that season it was kind worked.  When things are stressful , we got Smart to inject life/provide energy on the defensive end. Provide leadership in the defensive end. But who is going to provide that on the offensive end?

Every good team has a go to scorer or a few scorers .   Spurs have Ginobelli, Parker, Green  , Rockets have Harden,  Mavs Dirk, Monta, Raptors Lowry  etc.  The crappy teams are crappy/stay crappy bc they don't even have one guy like that. 

The two guys with the most potential on our team (outside of Green who is looking like he is on his way out) are Sullinger (struggling, out of shape) and KO (does not have the personality to be a "me" guy).   Waiters has the potential to be that guy. That is why the Cavs drafted him higher than expected.

If Lebron didn't go back to Cleveland, they would have continued to be a crappy team for a long team even though they had the "me" guy Waiters.  He is what they used to call a "gun"...a selfish, shoot-first player. 
Before a game on Christmas against the Pacers, Bird told Chuck Person that he had a present for him. During the game, Bird shot a 3-pointer in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry F!#*ing Christmas!" and then the shot went in.

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2014, 11:58:55 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Is Waiters significantly better than Thornton? It just seems like combo guards that really only score are just so easy to get. Tony Wroten, Jordan Crawford, Thornton types are available in the late 1st commonly and on the open market. Is Waiters a cut above the the average 1 dimensional combo guard?

Have you ever seen Thornton able to do some of the things below?? Waiters has more skills. Has a longer wingspan, leaps higher.  His handles are underrated.   Cavs probably don't want to give him up but they have Lebron and Irving to rely on to do most of the scoring. Really need to replace Verajao but have like no assets to give up, unless it's Thompson (which is not likely bc they really will be empty upfront or Waiters). Or sign a bum like Jermaine O'neil.     

They need to replace Varejao ASAP. Wait a month until the deadline hits and you will have overworked Lebron, Irving especially to make up (for scoring etc.) for not having a decent center in the lineup.

Danny has been a fan of Waiters.   Green to grizzlies, Koufus + (picks etc) to Cavs, Waiters to Celtics is a good trade for all three teams imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZAIsTaz04w

Have I seen Thornton do what? Score in the NBA? Yes. There are youtube mixes on Thornton scoring on the internet too.

Waiters may have potential, but he only plays 20 minutes a game. He's shooting the 3-ball at under 30% on the year, and is characterized by many Cavs fans as a selfish idiot with below average D.

Oh and that commentator ::) ;D. That guy's got some spunk.

My favorite part was 'Waiterade' lol. ::) ;D He sounds only sightly quicker than Magic Johnson with his ability to keep up with the play being shown, imo, haha.  Isn't he a Cavs great, like Austin Carr or someone?  Does anyone know?

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #197 on: December 25, 2014, 12:02:18 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Is Waiters significantly better than Thornton? It just seems like combo guards that really only score are just so easy to get. Tony Wroten, Jordan Crawford, Thornton types are available in the late 1st commonly and on the open market. Is Waiters a cut above the the average 1-dimensional combo guard?

While not the case with Thornton, the two players emboldened are actually excellent passers, with Wroten clearly being the better of the two, but Jordan Crawford, as we saw last year, is also a good one.  Look for Tony Wroten highlights on YouTube.  He's a great passer.  It would have been nice to have him here.  Sigh.

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #198 on: December 25, 2014, 12:05:47 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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If any of these "assets" lead to anything, then fine, I'll be a happy camper.

Til then, Ainge's quest to rebuild the team gets an incomplete from me.

By the way, don't look now, but I think guys like Sully and Green are getting tired of losing and I don't blame them one bit.

Not sure why Ainge is getting such a benefit of the doubt.

Because he keeps turning lemons into lemonade.

Chris 22 you got to be a little patient.  Picks got us Big Al, Green, Allen etc.  Then were flipped for the big three . Then you know what happened after

Danny is confident about facing the draft.  He has done a very good job after the Giddens, JJJ disaster with picking Sullinger, KO, Smart, Young.   

The next big player that is rumored to be on the market or asks to be traded , the Celts are 1st or 2nd in line right now. Especially if that team trading the "star" wants to rebuild through the draft.   For Durant, we will give you 4 1st round picks (on draft night we have a top 3 pick). If OKC is looking to rebuild for whatever reason as an example, they will take our offer.

Don't forget about Fab Melo and Lester Hudson. ;) Ugh.

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #199 on: December 25, 2014, 12:07:37 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Sure would have been nice to get help like this when the C's were contenders. How long's it been since the team has had a legit center again?  ::)

About a year or two ago.



If KG was doing that still he never would have been moved to center.

Regardless, he was legit as they come, late 30s and all.

Ugh.  Don't remind me.

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #200 on: December 25, 2014, 12:20:24 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Looks like we snagged Wright just at the right time. Didn't even need to showcase him in order for him to turn into an asset that could be upgraded into a lottery pick. A 4th overall pick, at that, nice! Granted, that was two years ago, and Waiters is a volume chucker, but he still possesses some high-lotto pedigree, and he's under contract for another year, and on this Celtics squad the rest of the season he could average 20 points like he did late last season, perhaps not be too inefficient if his 3PT% can approach 40 again, all the while not helping the Celtics actually win too much and slip down in the lottery, and then over the summer he can be bundled with other players/picks for an even better asset. It's a perfect buy-low opportunity. Let Ainge do his paperclip thing. Forget about how Waiters will fit long-term plans, or whether Bradley is a better overall player when defense is considered, or whether Waiters would encroach on Smart's minutes. It's all showcase, all the time, for the foreseeable future. You want a 4th overall pick, here is a recent one, not a bust yet, still hyped, with lots of 20+ point games in the last calendar year. Forget chemistry, forget character. Acquire assets, develop assets, upgrade assets. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I'd love to get Waiters. He's a talented scorer who probably just needs to find a system and coach that works for him. Whether or not he ever does is not our problem. We just need to make him look good for half a season.

He could probably average 15-20 PPG on our team even if he wasn't starting. I'm hoping Stevens' offense would enhance his efficiency and inflate his offensive averages. Offenses that crank out close to 100 possessions a game and stress ball movement usually do. It's exactly why Evan Turner looked great on the Sixers, terrible on the Pacers and now pretty good again on the Cs. It's also why MCW's stats probably make him look better than he really is. Smart move by Brett Brown and Hinkie for the tanking years.

Boost Waiters' value and package him with our pick to move up in the Draft. If Detroit or NYK are ahead of us, I can totally see them biting.

Ditto.  We definitely need a go to guy, and Waiters has an excellent handle and can create his own shot, which is more than you can say for anyone else on our current roster.  In addition to needing a 'rim protector' ::), lol ;D, Cleveland also needs a better backup point guard.  Hmm, now who could possibly help there, lol (sarcasm)?  Honestly, I wish that we could trade Bradley for Waiters, because AB would be great for them, imo, but he can't be moved until later, so humbug! ;) ::) ;D Ideally, I'd give them Wright, Nelson, and Bradley, for Waiters and the trade exception or whatever else is needed to make the salaries work, but the first two guys can't be traded with another player, and Bradley can't be moved until later (I just can't remember when, exactly, lol.).  That could be an interesting core, moving forward, of Smart, Waiters, and Young, but whatever.  As far as Cleveland's severe lack of interior defense, what's Greg Oden doing these days (sarcasm)? ::) ;D Oh, and I don't want to get Poindexter (sarcasm) ;) ;D back in any kind of deal.  It's nothing against him, personally, but that contract is just, ugh, haha, and we don't need any other deals like that of Gerald Wallace on the books, lol. ;D

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #201 on: December 25, 2014, 12:24:33 AM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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I know the Cavs need a 1st big off the bench, but they're not about to trade their 6th man, the only real scorer they have on the bench, for that big. If they do that, they have that 1st big off the bench, but they're missing a 6th man/focal point for the 2nd unit. They're probably a worse team overall at that point.

If Boston wants Waiters, Cleveland needs a bench scorer they can afford, and Ray Allen needs to come out of retirement.

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #202 on: December 25, 2014, 12:25:14 AM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

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Celtics send Brandon Wright, Marcus Thorton
Receive Memphis 1st 2015, expirings Cleveland 2nd 2015, Memphis 2nd next year

Cavs receive Brandon Wright, Thorton
Cavs give up Dion Waiters

Memphis Receives Dion Waiters,Jeff Green


Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #203 on: December 25, 2014, 12:36:37 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Celtics send Brandon Wright, Marcus Thorton
Receive Memphis 1st 2015, expirings Cleveland 2nd 2015, Memphis 2nd next year

Cavs receive Brandon Wright, Thorton
Cavs give up Dion Waiters

Memphis Receives Dion Waiters,Jeff Green

You can't make this trade until Feb.   Cavs need a center right now

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #204 on: December 25, 2014, 12:39:12 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Hard to get excited about a future Memphis second rounder, but I'm curious what people think of this deal.   Say, a #25 and a #50 pick for Green.

That's simply a horrible return for Green. If the pick looks like it will be in the lottery then yes.  Otherwise, no thanks.

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #205 on: December 25, 2014, 12:40:16 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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If any of these "assets" lead to anything, then fine, I'll be a happy camper.

Til then, Ainge's quest to rebuild the team gets an incomplete from me.

By the way, don't look now, but I think guys like Sully and Green are getting tired of losing and I don't blame them one bit.

Not sure why Ainge is getting such a benefit of the doubt.

Sorry, but Sully and Green have a job to do.  It's not like they have been playing on a losing team for the past 10 years.  Not everyone can be on a championship team.  They are getting paid big money to play basketball for a living and there is no guarantee of team success.  It's up to them as PROFESSIONALS to play like they care.

Green has spent most of his career on good teams with competent coaching.  Sully has probably never experienced anything in all his years of playing basketball like what he's gone though last season and this.

I'm starting to think that Stevens has forgotten that a winning culture starts with winning.  He's trying to build this Platonic ideal of how a team should play with little regard for the immediate results.  But he doesn't have the talent to win on that alone and he doesn't have the NBA credibility to withstand long term failure.

Or to put it another way, I think Stevens may be so focused on being perfect at some undetermined point in the future that he doesn't care about getting a little better right now.

Mike

I think the problem is that Stevens is focusing too much on winning individual games rather than developing a winning environment.  Each game he is allocating playing time based on who is playing well that game.  He needs to establish rotations and stick with them for several games until it is clear that a change needs to be made.  Players need to know what their roles are supposed to be on the team and roughly how much playing time they'll be getting.  Their roles also need to be based on their actual abilities not trying to force fit them into his system.  Sully needs to be inside banging not shooting 3s.  What is Smart's role?  Why would Stevens start Smart one game and then send him back to the bench the next?  He surely didn't think Smart would develop into an NBA caliber point guard overnight?  If Stevens wasn't ready to start Smart regardless of the growing pains, he should have started Pressey or Turner instead. 

I think Stevens is a big part of the problem.  He's still coaching like he's a mid-major college coach.  In the Washington game where the 2nd unit played so well, there was a lot of praise for him sticking with the 2nd unit through the 4th and both overtimes.  I think that decision was an extremely short sighted decision focused on winning that particular game not building a winning team.  He should have brought the starting unit back in at the start of 1st overtime.  Play them for a couple minutes and if they were still in a funk then pull them for the rest of the game.  The starters were clearly into the game cheering the 2nd unit's excellent performance.  If the starters had played well that would have said a lot about the whole team.  As it was, it just said Stevens is going to go with the hot hand for a particular game regardless of your role on the team. 
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 12:56:12 AM by tazzmaniac »

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #206 on: December 25, 2014, 12:43:45 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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The two guys with the most potential on our team (outside of Green who is looking like he is on his way out) are Sullinger (struggling, out of shape) and KO (does not have the personality to be a "me" guy).   Waiters has the potential to be that guy. That is why the Cavs drafted him higher than expected.

If the Cavs drafted Waiters so highly, then why are they trying to dump him?  I think Waiters reminds me of Ricky Davis.  A guy who can score but ultimately doesn't improve your club.  I'd rather get a lotto pick in return for Green's services than a guy who doesn't add much except some volume scoring.

I do feel that Green is our most attractive piece left.  I hope Ainge maximize's his value.  Oh and if we can trade Brandan Wright for something useful -- just get it done!

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #207 on: December 25, 2014, 12:59:59 AM »

Offline Kadin

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Celtics send Brandon Wright, Marcus Thorton
Receive Memphis 1st 2015, expirings Cleveland 2nd 2015, Memphis 2nd next year

Cavs receive Brandon Wright, Thorton
Cavs give up Dion Waiters

Memphis Receives Dion Waiters,Jeff Green

You can't make this trade until Feb.   Cavs need a center right now
Not to mention that is a horrible deal for the Celtics. Wright, Thornton AND Jeff Green and we only get 1 late first-rounder and 2 second-rounders? Ainge really should be fired if he made a deal like that. heh

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #208 on: December 25, 2014, 01:27:56 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Celtics send Brandon Wright, Marcus Thorton
Receive Memphis 1st 2015, expirings Cleveland 2nd 2015, Memphis 2nd next year

Cavs receive Brandon Wright, Thorton
Cavs give up Dion Waiters

Memphis Receives Dion Waiters,Jeff Green

You can't make this trade until Feb.   Cavs need a center right now
Not to mention that is a horrible deal for the Celtics. Wright, Thornton AND Jeff Green and we only get 1 late first-rounder and 2 second-rounders? Ainge really should be fired if he made a deal like that. heh

Great trade for Memphis though.  Getting Green and Waiters for just expiring contracts and a 2nd rounder.  Although I can't see them having any interest in Waiters. 

Re: Cavs have been in contact with Cs about facilitating 3 team deals per ESPN
« Reply #209 on: December 25, 2014, 01:40:19 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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The two guys with the most potential on our team (outside of Green who is looking like he is on his way out) are Sullinger (struggling, out of shape) and KO (does not have the personality to be a "me" guy).   Waiters has the potential to be that guy. That is why the Cavs drafted him higher than expected.

If the Cavs drafted Waiters so highly, then why are they trying to dump him?  I think Waiters reminds me of Ricky Davis.  A guy who can score but ultimately doesn't improve your club.  I'd rather get a lotto pick in return for Green's services than a guy who doesn't add much except some volume scoring.

I do feel that Green is our most attractive piece left.  I hope Ainge maximize's his value.  Oh and if we can trade Brandan Wright for something useful -- just get it done!

you can't have 4 "go to scorer" . It's hard to make it work and can backfire actually

Lebron, Irving, Love. Waiters has little to no chance

They need a center and don't have assets nor many attractive pick to obtain one outside of Waiters .