If Rose is healthy, will the CHI do with Butler what OKC did with Harden?

[TheFlex]

The question is: If Derrick Rose proves to be healthy and continues to regain his pre-injury level of impact throughout the season, would the Bulls consider signing and trading Jimmy Butler this offseason much like the Thunder did with James Harden not long ago?

If the answer to this question is no, don't waste your time reading the rest of my blather.

If the answer to this question is yes or maybe, continue strolling with me in this Celtic fantasy land.

Jimmy Butler is clearly worth the max. First let's ask a basic question: if the Bulls are signing Butler with Bird Rights and then trading him to the Cs, would the max be 4y/$60m or 5y/$80m? TP for the first person to answer this question.

With our cap space this offseason I would be shocked if Danny didn't jump at the opportunity to grab a young stud like Butler or Kawhi Leonard. It seems to me like the Bulls would be much more open to a S&T for their young stud than the Spurs would be for theirs, if Rose proves to be healthy. Rose/Noah are a young duo, while Parker/Duncan and the crew are declining. I'm sure the Spurs envision Leonard snatching the baton from the old heads and running with it towards title territory.

So, if you're still reading, we've established:

- the Bulls would be open to trading Butler if Rose (and Noah, I guess, given his history of foot injuries) is healthy
- Butler is worth the max
- Danny would pay Butler the max

Here is my proposition:

The Cs offer Avery Bradley, Jameer Nelson (Bulls would probably want him since Brooks will command a raise this summer), our 2016 1st, the more favorable of our 2017 1st and BKN's 2017 1st and their choice between one of the PHI 2nd rounders in a S&T for Butler.

Compare that to Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, 2013 DAL 1st rounder, 2013 TOR 1st rounder (protected 1-3 and 15-30) and 2013 CHA 2nd rounder (Charlotte was awful at the time and the pick ended up being #34) for James Harden and scraps.

There is a fair point to be made that OKC refused to pay James Harden and that's why he was traded. However Chicago's owner is notoriously cheap, much like the partnership at the helm of OKC. The Bulls should have a few young guns that they'll have to pay over the next five years (McDermott and Mirotic) and Reinsdorf (CHI owner) might prefer depth and the definite wealth to pay both prospects vs. star power and potentially losing one or two of the three (Butler, McDermott, Mirotic) in the midst of D-Rose's prime.

If you're still with me, let's continue.

Stanley Johnson and DeAndre Jordan

The following was inspired by this CFAN38 post: http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=75080.msg1788508#msg1788508

In the proposed deal above the Celtics manage to keep their 2015 1st rounder. This is extremely important, as it should fall within the range that Stanley Johnson is expected to be selected. Stanley Johnson has been compared to perimeter defensive stalwarts such as Ron Artest. A perimeter defense with Smart, Butler and him would devastating, with a ceiling that is likely higher than the 2013 Pacers' perimeter defense that included Lance Stephenson and Paul George. If the Celtics are able to snag Butler they should complete the trifecta by adding a prospect like Stanley Johnson. I would be willing to throw in one of the late 1sts we own in order to move up a few spots and grab him.

The next step towards assembling a league-best defense is a rim protector. While it would be nice to net one of Okafor or Towns, I'm not sure that we'll be able to land a pick high enough to select one of them. Plus, neither of them have shown the defensive skills that would fit the team I am assembling so far. It would be great to get Myles Turner, but I think he'll be selected in the 7-10 range, far ahead of where our Clippers pick should fall.

DeAndre Jordan is a free agent this offseason and we should have the cap space to sign him even if we brought in Jimmy Butler. If anyone can confirm this, TP for them as well. I would be willing to sign Jordan for 4y/$52m. If he accepts, the following would be a skeleton version of your 2015-16 Boston Celtics:

Marcus Smart/??/Phil Pressey
Jimmy Butler/James Young
Stanley Johnson/Evan Turner
Jared Sullinger/Kelly Olynyk
DeAndre Jordan/Tyler Zeller

+ 2015 LAC 1st, and potentially the 2015 PHI 2nd if Chicago was to choose the 2016 PHI 2nd.

If he doesn't, we find another way...

Willie Cauley-Stein

It's unclear where WCS will fall. Some have him as high as #7 or #8 on mock draft boards. Others have him lower, in the 15-20 range. Let's assume he goes in the late lottery between picks 10-12. We have already taken Stanley Johnson with our own 1st. Let's assume our 1st was not high enough to land him without trading up. Let's then assume we traded our 1st (7-10), the Dallas 1st and absorbed an unfortunate contract with the Rondo TPE (not anything crazy, but something like the Brandon Bass contract) to move up between picks 4-6. What would it take in addition to the 2015 LAC 1st that we own to then move up to picks 10-12 to select WCS? This of course depends on where the Clippers pick lands. Let's assume it falls somewhere between picks 20-25. Would the 2015 LAC 1st, the 2016 CLE 1st and absorbing another Bass-like contract with the remains of the Rondo TPE afford us a late lotto 1st? Let's assume it does, and pick WCS, giving us an alternative skeleton version of the 2015-16 Boston Celtics below:

Marcus Smart/??/Phil Pressey
Jimmy Butler/James Young
Stanley Johnson/Evan Turner
Jared Sullinger/Kelly Olynyk
Tyler Zeller/Willie Cauley-Stein

+ 2 bad contracts, and potentially the 2015 PHI 2nd if Chicago was to choose the 2016 PHI 2nd. We may have to surrender the remaining PHI 2nd in order to move up to get WCS.

How insane defensively would either starting lineup be (especially when WCS matured)? Imagine both of these at the end of the game to get a stop: Smart/Butler/Johnson/Zeller/Jordan or Smart/Butler/Johnson/Zeller/WCS. I'm drooling. Tell me if you are too.

[Who]

I don't think Chicago will have much trouble keeping him. Rose earns a lot of money at $20 million but Noah only earns $13 million and Pau Gasol only $7.5 million. The Bulls should be able to afford Jimmy Butler a maximum contract (~$15mil?).

Even if they do not have quite enough money as currently constituted, they can free up enough cash by moving Taj Gibson ($8.5mil) and handing backup PF duties over to Nikola Mirotic.

[jpotter33]

I don't think Chicago will have much trouble keeping him. Rose earns a lot of money at $20 million but Noah only earns $13 million and Pau Gasol only $7.5 million. The Bulls should be able to afford Jimmy Butler a maximum contract (~$15mil?).

Even if they do not have quite enough money as currently constituted, they can free up enough cash by moving Taj Gibson ($8.5mil) and handing backup PF duties over to Nikola Mirotic.

If for some reason Green decided not to opt out this summer in favor of being a free agent when the salary cap spikes, I'd throw something like Bradley, Green, and a future first for Butler (on the condition that they don't want to max out Butler). A lineup of Rose, Bradley, Green, Gasol, and Noah would be deadly.

[Eddie20]

New CBA prohibits a player to be S&T under a 5 year deal. That's what makes the S&T less of an option then before. There is virtually no incentive to the player.




http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/john_schuhmann/03/07/cba-trade-deadline/

Sign-and-trades aren't as much of an option
When the Cleveland Cavaliers and Toronto Raptors lost LeBron James and Chris Bosh to Miami in 2010, they were able to get something back (draft picks and trade exceptions) by working out sign-and-trade deals with the Heat. The sign-and-trade deals made sense for the Heat and the players, because under the old CBA, contracts signed with a player's current team could be six years long, with 10.5 percent raises. If James and Bosh had signed outright with the Heat, the contracts could only be five years long with eight percent raises.
Under the new CBA, new contracts with the player's current team can be five years long with 7.5 percent raises, while contracts with a new team can only be four years long with 4.5 percent raises. Another major change is that sign-and-trade deals are limited to the same maximums as deals with a new team (four years, 4.5 percent raises).

[littleteapot]

Besides being really cheap, the Thunder had 4 great young players to try to hold on to. The Bulls have Rose and Butler - they would probably give up anyone else on the team to hold on to those two.

[Beat LA]

Is WCS even that good, because from the limited time I've seen him play, he doesn't look to be more than a great athlete with shot blocking skills, and if we're high enough up in the pecking order this year, for once, lol (so, not ), I want a big guy with actual SKILLS, like post moves, passing, rebounding, and shot blocking.  I'm not asking for a finished product, but the guy should at least show potential in those areas, imo.  Did I just describe Towns, then, lol?  If so, we're not getting him, so what about Dakari Johnson?  Is he any good?

[TheFlex]

I don't think Chicago will have much trouble keeping him. Rose earns a lot of money at $20 million but Noah only earns $13 million and Pau Gasol only $7.5 million. The Bulls should be able to afford Jimmy Butler a maximum contract (~$15mil?).

Even if they do not have quite enough money as currently constituted, they can free up enough cash by moving Taj Gibson ($8.5mil) and handing backup PF duties over to Nikola Mirotic.

You're probably right unfortunately, but I wouldn't put it past Reinsdorf to salivate over the idea of having to pay AB $7m less once Nelson expires on top of acquiring three picks (two 1sts, one high 2nd). In addition, as I've mentioned, paydays for McDermott and Mirotic loom.

I don't think Chicago will have much trouble keeping him. Rose earns a lot of money at $20 million but Noah only earns $13 million and Pau Gasol only $7.5 million. The Bulls should be able to afford Jimmy Butler a maximum contract (~$15mil?).

Even if they do not have quite enough money as currently constituted, they can free up enough cash by moving Taj Gibson ($8.5mil) and handing backup PF duties over to Nikola Mirotic.

If for some reason Green decided not to opt out this summer in favor of being a free agent when the salary cap spikes, I'd throw something like Bradley, Green, and a future first for Butler (on the condition that they don't want to max out Butler). A lineup of Rose, Bradley, Green, Gasol, and Noah would be deadly.

I was thinking this as well, but didn't want to add another variable to the equation. I think if they were wavering on paying Butler the max when they already had Rose (assumed to be healthy in this scenario) and Noah plus McDermott and Mirotic looking for paydays in the future, AB/Nelson/2 1sts/high 2nd would do it.

New CBA prohibits a player to be S&T under a 5 year deal. That's what makes the S&T less of an option then before. There is virtually no incentive to the player.




http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/john_schuhmann/03/07/cba-trade-deadline/

Sign-and-trades aren't as much of an option
When the Cleveland Cavaliers and Toronto Raptors lost LeBron James and Chris Bosh to Miami in 2010, they were able to get something back (draft picks and trade exceptions) by working out sign-and-trade deals with the Heat. The sign-and-trade deals made sense for the Heat and the players, because under the old CBA, contracts signed with a player's current team could be six years long, with 10.5 percent raises. If James and Bosh had signed outright with the Heat, the contracts could only be five years long with eight percent raises.
Under the new CBA, new contracts with the player's current team can be five years long with 7.5 percent raises, while contracts with a new team can only be four years long with 4.5 percent raises. Another major change is that sign-and-trade deals are limited to the same maximums as deals with a new team (four years, 4.5 percent raises).

Thanks, TP as promised.

Besides being really cheap, the Thunder had 4 great young players to try to hold on to. The Bulls have Rose and Butler - they would probably give up anyone else on the team to hold on to those two.

It's not exactly the same scenario as the 2013 Thunder but it's not what you paint it to be either. They've paid Rose and Noah. If both are healthy, I'm not sure there would be a definite consensus to pay Butler the max when they have the aforementioned two stars on the books plus McDermott and Mirotic to pay in the future. On top of that, they could fetch a fare return for Butler, as I proposed in the thread.

Is WCS even that good, because from the limited time I've seen him play, he doesn't look to be more than a great athlete with shot blocking skills, and if we're high enough up in the pecking order this year, for once, lol (so, not ), I want a big guy with actual SKILLS, like post moves, passing, rebounding, and shot blocking.  I'm not asking for a finished product, but the guy should at least show potential in those areas, imo.  Did I just describe Towns, then, lol?  If so, we're not getting him, so what about Dakari Johnson?  Is he any good?

From what I've heard WCS has a shown a lot lately that separates him from a prospect like Fab Melo. If this is true, I'd definitely take my chances on him.

[mgent]

Butler is their best player, not their 3rd best player.

[TheFlex]

Butler is their best player, not their 3rd best player.

Rose is their best player, when healthy.

[mgent]

Butler is their best player, not their 3rd best player.

Rose is their best player, when healthy.

That's more of an "if" than "when."

[TheFlex]

Butler is their best player, not their 3rd best player.

Rose is their best player, when healthy.

That's more of an "if" than "when."

Of course, that's why the whole OP is a hypothetical based on Rose being healthy. Just wrote it for fun. Plus it'd be sweet if the Cs could turn around that quickly. Stranger things have happened.