Addressing all the Rondo revisionism

[KingChre]

Not nearly enough, imo.  As to the second emboldened point, why does that matter?  People compare trades all the time.  It's all about equal value, irrespective of the era.  Memphis got more for Pau Gasol in 2008 than we did for Rondo, which was labelled as highway robbery at the time.  Plus, Ainge didn't buy that pick at all.  That draft choice was moved so many times, even once by Danny, prior to him reacquiring it in a trade with Phoenix.  Via Rondo's basketball reference page http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html-

Transactions
August 6, 2004: Traded by the Los Angeles Lakers (as a future 2006 1st round draft pick) with Rick Fox and Gary Payton to the Boston Celtics for Chucky Atkins, Jumaine Jones and Chris Mihm.

February 24, 2005: Traded by the Boston Celtics (as a future 2006 1st round draft pick) with Tom Gugliotta, Gary Payton and Michael Stewart to the Atlanta Hawks for Antoine Walker.

August 19, 2005: Traded by the Atlanta Hawks (as a future 2006 1st round draft pick) with Boris Diaw and a 2008 1st round draft pick (Robin Lopez was later selected) to the Phoenix Suns for Joe Johnson.

June 28, 2006: Drafted by the Phoenix Suns in the 1st round (21st pick) of the 2006 NBA Draft.

June 28, 2006: Traded by the Phoenix Suns with Brian Grant to the Boston Celtics for a 2007 1st round draft pick (Rudy Fernandez was later selected).

I also recall that Ray was an expiring, but I don't see how that was relevant because Detroit was just beginning it's rebuilding process at that time, and, honestly, I don't remember Tayshaun Prince even being discussed as a part of that deal, but I'll look it up, anyway.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, lol. Either way, though, adding Prince to such a trade still wouldn't have been nearly enough for Rondo, especially after he had come of the 09 postseason where he practically averaged a triple double over 14 games at age 22.

I just found this, btw, which is both hilarious and disappointing at the same time, lol.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/12/18/7418339/rajon-rondo-trade-rumors-history-celtics

I stand corrected about Prince.  TP for you, sir.  It still doesn't change my overall point, though, lol.

Fair enough, but whether he bought it or acquired it doesn't really speak to my point that it was with the intent to draft Rondo.

Allen being an expiring is important because it illustrates how much of an anchor it is to a good player's trade value. The NBA is a supply and demand business like anything else, and even when a fine unique asset comes to market (like 2014 Rondo or 2009 Allen) if the demand doesn't meet the supply, the price drops.

There simply was not much of a demand for Rondo, for many reasons, and that doesn't necessarily reflect so much as to the quality of the asset as it does to market demand.

[Beat LA]

Honestly, the incessant bashing, construing of information, and contradictory statements are so far past the point of revisionist history that I consider it an individual art form now.

Ya'll act like there wasn't a significant percentage of the fanbase telling you Rondo was overrated prior to the trade. 

There's no revisionist history happening here... maybe a slight humbling of a fanbase who believed Rondo to be a superstar talent and had a bit of a reality check when they saw him dumped for a protected late 1st.

Rondo is a terrific player.  I'll miss watching him.  A lot of the complaints some of us had are now being echoed on a national level.  Nothing being revised here it's just magnified by the last trickle of Rondo's relevance to this organization.

You saying that Rondo is a terrific player goes completely against everything you've ever said about the guy.  I thought that he was a lazy, overrated role player with a bad attitude? You also won't miss watching him at all - you'll only miss having a chance to take a dump on him every day, and then in another thread you actually said that you wanted him to come back in the offseason!? Really, lol?

Actually Beat LA, there might be some fans here who thought Rondo was lazy and a bad attitude.  That wasn't me, though. 

He was my favorite player on the Celtics.  He was definitely the best player on the Celtics.  I think the first time I took the contrarian stance about Rondo was in a thread comparing him to Chris Paul.  I said at the time that Rondo wasn't anywhere near the level of Chris Paul.  Unpopular opinion at the time, because it's a Celtics blog, but I wasn't going to actively participate in group delusion for the sake of my fandom.   I was the same way about Pierce... favorite player of the modern era, but if someone compared him to LeBron James, I was willing to point out how foolish that was.  Likewise, a post on here in 2008 claiming Kendrick Perkins was a better fit for our team than "Hakeem in his prime"...  I called that one out too. 

That doesn't take anything away from how I felt about those guys.  But come on...

I was always willing to point out Rondo's strengths and his flaws.  Frankly, he's been pretty overrated.  He was never the best player on the team during the KG/Pierce era.  I felt like his playmaking ability was a little overstated.  Quick summary, I felt like he got a ton of assists, because the ball needed to be in his hands.  It needed to be in his hands because he was such a liability without the ball.  So by necessity the ball had to flow through Rondo.  On some teams it might work, but it limits the style of play a team can run.  Makes the offense predictable.  There's a reason why so few teams were willing to bring in Rondo... he's a player whose flaws you'd need to mask for him to be successful.   There aren't a lot of teams that can utilize him in a way that he needs to be utilized.   I would have been fine with us going out and getting stars that fit his style, but it always seemed like the most difficult path to take.  He was approaching 30 and this team is still a few years away from even being mildly relevant.  He had to go.

I'd almost forgotten about the Hakeem post, lol.  However, I haven't once seen you bring up any of Rondo's strengths, and yet there you go again with how his playmaking ability is overrated. You honestly never thought that he was the best player on the team during any time in the KG era?  Not in the 2009 playoffs, where he owned Derrick Rose and practically averaged a triple double at 22?  Not in 2010?  Forget making the finals that year, we would never have beaten the Cavs if he didn't completely dominate that series.  He tied records set by Cousy in that series, and that's just ridiculous.  I wonder what Cousy thinks of this, btw, as he was always one of Rondo's biggest fans.  Also, in the subsequent years, the reason why the Big Three were able to age as well as they did was because of Rondo.  If he wasn't such a unique player, those guys would have still needed to try and do everything themselves, when it was clear that they could no longer do so for an entire game.  What did Thibs say about him a month ago?  You won't find a smarter or more creative player in the league.  No one plays like him.  As soon as he was traded, every point guard in the western conference went, "oh sh1t," lol.  I'm sorry, but I've seen him do too many amazing things in the biggest moments of the biggest games to ever doubt him.  Do I wish that he improved his free throw shooting?  Of course.  Do I wish that he was a better shooter?  Yes - absolutely.  For all of you who love Tony Parker, btw, there was a time when he was a terrible shooter, and it took a long time before he developed the shot that he has today.  Part of the thing with Rondo's jumper is that he's kind of like DJ, who would intentionally miss during the regular season (I read that in a book somewhere where McHale actually said that DJ had told him that, so I'm not making it up.), but as soon as the playoffs rolled around, there he was, as usual, lol.  I know that he didn't fit with the direction of the team, but that is in no way his fault, and, if we HAD to trade him, I would have required a much better return for a guy who's twice lead the league in assists.  In fact, if the team was worse with Rondo than it is without him , lol , why wouldn't Ainge keep him to 1). drive up the value of guys like Green, Bass, Thornton, and Zeller, and 2). help us get a better draft pick, if you honestly believe that he was that bad, which is nothing more than pure hyperbole.  I can't count the times you've called him completely overrated, and, honestly, after nearly constantly shopping him for practically his entire career, I think that he had a right to walk at the end of the year.  We already have a ridiculous number of draft picks, anyway, Marcus Smart, who is suddenly the be-all and end-all around here, lol, and if Rondo leaves, wouldn't we have been better for it, record wise, so that we could have a better draft pick in 2016?  It's certainly better than what we got from Dallas, lol.

[Beat LA]

Not nearly enough, imo.  As to the second emboldened point, why does that matter?  People compare trades all the time.  It's all about equal value, irrespective of the era.  Memphis got more for Pau Gasol in 2008 than we did for Rondo, which was labelled as highway robbery at the time.  Plus, Ainge didn't buy that pick at all.  That draft choice was moved so many times, even once by Danny, prior to him reacquiring it in a trade with Phoenix.  Via Rondo's basketball reference page http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html-

Transactions
August 6, 2004: Traded by the Los Angeles Lakers (as a future 2006 1st round draft pick) with Rick Fox and Gary Payton to the Boston Celtics for Chucky Atkins, Jumaine Jones and Chris Mihm.

February 24, 2005: Traded by the Boston Celtics (as a future 2006 1st round draft pick) with Tom Gugliotta, Gary Payton and Michael Stewart to the Atlanta Hawks for Antoine Walker.

August 19, 2005: Traded by the Atlanta Hawks (as a future 2006 1st round draft pick) with Boris Diaw and a 2008 1st round draft pick (Robin Lopez was later selected) to the Phoenix Suns for Joe Johnson.

June 28, 2006: Drafted by the Phoenix Suns in the 1st round (21st pick) of the 2006 NBA Draft.

June 28, 2006: Traded by the Phoenix Suns with Brian Grant to the Boston Celtics for a 2007 1st round draft pick (Rudy Fernandez was later selected).

I also recall that Ray was an expiring, but I don't see how that was relevant because Detroit was just beginning it's rebuilding process at that time, and, honestly, I don't remember Tayshaun Prince even being discussed as a part of that deal, but I'll look it up, anyway.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, lol. Either way, though, adding Prince to such a trade still wouldn't have been nearly enough for Rondo, especially after he had come of the 09 postseason where he practically averaged a triple double over 14 games at age 22.

I just found this, btw, which is both hilarious and disappointing at the same time, lol.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/12/18/7418339/rajon-rondo-trade-rumors-history-celtics

I stand corrected about Prince.  TP for you, sir.  It still doesn't change my overall point, though, lol.

Fair enough, but whether he bought it or acquired it doesn't really speak to my point that it was with the intent to draft Rondo.

Allen being an expiring is important because it illustrates how much of an anchor it is to a good player's trade value. The NBA is a supply and demand business like anything else, and even when a fine unique asset comes to market (like 2014 Rondo or 2009 Allen) if the demand doesn't meet the supply, the price drops.

There simply was not much of a demand for Rondo, for many reasons, and that doesn't necessarily reflect so much as to the quality of the asset as it does to market demand.

Perhaps not, but couldn't Ainge have just held onto the pick?  He was playing hot potato with it, lol, and if we hadn't gotten Antoine back, our record would have been worse, so our draft position would have been better, meaning that we could have potentially had Danny Granger instead of Gerald Green, lol, but there are too many what ifs in there, lol.  It could have sped up the rebuild by a year or two, though - you never know.

As for your last point, if that's the case, then why not let him enter free agency, if you couldn't get anything for him, let alone anything good for the guy.  He could have helped Smart A LOT this year, imo.  Wouldn't you prefer a starting backcourt of Rondo and Smart to Smart and Bradley, or even Rondo and Bradley?  See what I'm getting at, here, lol?

[KingChre]

Perhaps not, but couldn't Ainge have just held onto the pick?  He was playing hot potato with it, lol, and if we hadn't gotten Antoine back, our record would have been worse, so our draft position would have been better, meaning that we could have potentially had Danny Granger instead of Gerald Green, lol, but there are too many what ifs in there, lol.  It could have sped up the rebuild by a year or two, though - you never know.

As for your last point, if that's the case, then why not let him enter free agency, if you couldn't get anything for him, let alone anything good for the guy.  He could have helped Smart A LOT this year, imo.  Wouldn't you prefer a starting backcourt of Rondo and Smart to Smart and Bradley, or even Rondo and Bradley?  See what I'm getting at, here, lol?

You have the dates there yourself, it's a bit unrealistic to expect Ainge to have known in February of 2005 that he was going to draft Rondo in June of 2006.

I actually don't believe that Rondo would have been well suited in a mentor position for Smart. I'm not suggesting that Smart would not have been able to learn anything from Rondo, but as competitive as Rondo is, I think its just as likely he would have tried to bury the kid as he would help him.

And yes, I would have preferred a Rondo/Smart back court, but I believe that it would have been short-lived, as I don't believe Rondo was going to re-sign here for anything short of a max deal. A deal that I don't believe he is worth.

[tazzmaniac]

Perhaps not, but couldn't Ainge have just held onto the pick?  He was playing hot potato with it, lol, and if we hadn't gotten Antoine back, our record would have been worse, so our draft position would have been better, meaning that we could have potentially had Danny Granger instead of Gerald Green, lol, but there are too many what ifs in there, lol.  It could have sped up the rebuild by a year or two, though - you never know.

As for your last point, if that's the case, then why not let him enter free agency, if you couldn't get anything for him, let alone anything good for the guy.  He could have helped Smart A LOT this year, imo.  Wouldn't you prefer a starting backcourt of Rondo and Smart to Smart and Bradley, or even Rondo and Bradley?  See what I'm getting at, here, lol?

You have the dates there yourself, it's a bit unrealistic to expect Ainge to have known in February of 2005 that he was going to draft Rondo in June of 2006.

I actually don't believe that Rondo would have been well suited in a mentor position for Smart. I'm not suggesting that Smart would not have been able to learn anything from Rondo, but as competitive as Rondo is, I think its just as likely he would have tried to bury the kid as he would help him.

And yes, I would have preferred a Rondo/Smart back court, but I believe that it would have been short-lived, as I don't believe Rondo was going to re-sign here for anything short of a max deal. A deal that I don't believe he is worth.

Since there is not much demand for Rondo, where would he go in free agency?  Dallas and Houston will be over the cap and could only obtain him in a sign and trade.  The Lakers and the Knicks may have cap space but they aren't going to be contenders anytime soon.  Rondo already said he wouldn't sign with Sacramento.  What contender needs a PG and would have the cap space to sign him? 

[KingChre]

Also, I just saw Ian Thompson of SI on Sports Extra. For the record, he was happy with the Rondo return, but that isn't what intrigued me. He made a point that I hadn't considered or seen elsewhere.

Because his market was essentially limited to contenders, those teams aren't going to have much available to trade because they are good, which of course lowers their draft slot, and they obviously aren't going to want to give up too many of the good players that are making them good to begin with.

So combining the following factors:

-Expiring contract
-Lack of contenders in need of a PG
-Lack of contenders with available draft picks to trade
-Injury history

You begin to see how complicated any deal was going to be, without even mentioning the player's ability. These are factors that must be considered before even mentioning the polarizing nature of Rondo's game itself, or any character question marks (which I believe are completely overrated).

[KingChre]

Since there is not much demand for Rondo, where would he go in free agency?  Dallas and Houston will be over the cap and could only obtain him in a sign and trade.  The Lakers and the Knicks may have cap space but they aren't going to be contenders anytime soon.  Rondo already said he wouldn't sign with Sacramento.  What contender needs a PG and would have the cap space to sign him?

I thought the Lakers were most likely, Kobe loves him and Jim Buss might just be delusional enough to offer him a max deal. It's the one team where the glitz might be enough to compensate for what they lack on the court.

[tazzmaniac]

Also, I just saw Ian Thompson of SI on Sports Extra. For the record, he was happy with the Rondo return, but that isn't what intrigued me. He made a point that I hadn't considered or seen elsewhere.

Because his market was essentially limited to contenders, those teams aren't going to have much available to trade because they are good, which of course lowers their draft slot, and they obviously aren't going to want to give up too many of the good players that are making them good to begin with.

So combining the following factors:

-Expiring contract
-Lack of contenders in need of a PG
-Lack of contenders with available draft picks to trade
-Injury history

You begin to see how complicated any deal was going to be, without even mentioning the player's ability. These are factors that must be considered before even mentioning the polarizing nature of Rondo's game itself, or any character question marks (which I believe are completely overrated).

Those factors also limit the options available for Rondo.  Boston may have ended up as his best option exactly for those reasons.  Unless you think Rondo was dead set on getting Max money or you're a diehard tanker, there's no good reason not to roll the dice and try to convince Rondo to stay.   

[Sixth Man]

Also, I just saw Ian Thompson of SI on Sports Extra. For the record, he was happy with the Rondo return, but that isn't what intrigued me. He made a point that I hadn't considered or seen elsewhere.

Because his market was essentially limited to contenders, those teams aren't going to have much available to trade because they are good, which of course lowers their draft slot, and they obviously aren't going to want to give up too many of the good players that are making them good to begin with.

So combining the following factors:

-Expiring contract
-Lack of contenders in need of a PG
-Lack of contenders with available draft picks to trade
-Injury history

You begin to see how complicated any deal was going to be, without even mentioning the player's ability. These are factors that must be considered before even mentioning the polarizing nature of Rondo's game itself, or any character question marks (which I believe are completely overrated).

Those factors also limit the options available for Rondo.  Boston may have ended up as his best option exactly for those reasons.  Unless you think Rondo was dead set on getting Max money or you're a diehard tanker, there's no good reason not to roll the dice and try to convince Rondo to stay.

There is a third consideration here, as suggested by RR close buddy Kendrick Perkins - Rondo was not willing to sign on for further rebuilding.  Once K. Love was traded to Cleveland, the die was cast.

[tazzmaniac]

Since there is not much demand for Rondo, where would he go in free agency?  Dallas and Houston will be over the cap and could only obtain him in a sign and trade.  The Lakers and the Knicks may have cap space but they aren't going to be contenders anytime soon.  Rondo already said he wouldn't sign with Sacramento.  What contender needs a PG and would have the cap space to sign him?

I thought the Lakers were most likely, Kobe loves him and Jim Buss might just be delusional enough to offer him a max deal. It's the one team where the glitz might be enough to compensate for what they lack on the court.

Kobe is most likely only playing one more year.  I don't think Rondo is at the top of the list of players that the Lakers will try to throw Max money at.  I also don't think Max money or glitz is at the top of Rondo's list.  I thinks he wants the limelight and challenge of playing for a contender.  Considering the limited options available, I think Ainge had a good chance to resign Rondo if he offered him good money (not Max money) and a non-trade clause. 

[KingChre]

Those factors also limit the options available for Rondo.  Boston may have ended up as his best option exactly for those reasons.  Unless you think Rondo was dead set on getting Max money or you're a diehard tanker, there's no good reason not to roll the dice and try to convince Rondo to stay.

1.) As Sixth Man references above, you ignore the possibility that Rondo simply didn't want to be here for an extended period of losing

2.) I definitely do believe that for Rondo to sign up for the rebuild, the Celtics would have to pay him max money. I have been looking for any evidence to the contrary for the last 15 minutes and cannot find anything that suggests that wasn't the case. Of course this is all hearsay and rumors, but its pretty consistent that he wanted a max deal.

3.) I don't believe that separating the crowd into a tanker/non-tanker debate is a useful enterprise. I am in favor of winning a championship as soon as possible. I don't believe that there are any superstars coming to market in the next 4 months that are realistically attainable to pair with Rondo in order to convince him to stay.

So in this case, I believe their best chance at finding a superstar is via the draft. Inherently, the draft is a risky proposition. There are generally two philosophies when it comes to minimizing that risk; A. having top quality picks, (as its statistically more likely to get a superstar at the top of the draft) and B. having a lot of picks (as the more picks you make, the better chance of finding that player.

Because Ainge has accumulated so many picks, he can basically try both. If I were him, I would bottom out this year, and perhaps next, and hope to nail both lottery picks. Then in the summer of 2016, hopefully they can add some complementary free agent help with their abundance of cap space to a young, exciting nucleus. It pushes off championship contention until 2017 at the earliest, but they would be set up for an extended run if all goes right.

[KingChre]

Kobe is most likely only playing one more year.  I don't think Rondo is at the top of the list of players that the Lakers will try to throw Max money at.  I also don't think Max money or glitz is at the top of Rondo's list.  I thinks he wants the limelight and challenge of playing for a contender.  Considering the limited options available, I think Ainge had a good chance to resign Rondo if he offered him good money (not Max money) and a non-trade clause.

You really just can't get past the idea that Rondo probably wanted out can you? Oh well, no more banging my head against a wall. Goodnight, agree to disagree. A Tommy Point for your passion.

[tazzmaniac]

Also, I just saw Ian Thompson of SI on Sports Extra. For the record, he was happy with the Rondo return, but that isn't what intrigued me. He made a point that I hadn't considered or seen elsewhere.

Because his market was essentially limited to contenders, those teams aren't going to have much available to trade because they are good, which of course lowers their draft slot, and they obviously aren't going to want to give up too many of the good players that are making them good to begin with.

So combining the following factors:

-Expiring contract
-Lack of contenders in need of a PG
-Lack of contenders with available draft picks to trade
-Injury history

You begin to see how complicated any deal was going to be, without even mentioning the player's ability. These are factors that must be considered before even mentioning the polarizing nature of Rondo's game itself, or any character question marks (which I believe are completely overrated).

Those factors also limit the options available for Rondo.  Boston may have ended up as his best option exactly for those reasons.  Unless you think Rondo was dead set on getting Max money or you're a diehard tanker, there's no good reason not to roll the dice and try to convince Rondo to stay.

There is a third consideration here, as suggested by RR close buddy Kendrick Perkins - Rondo was not willing to sign on for further rebuilding.  Once K. Love was traded to Cleveland, the die was cast.

And Doc said he talked to Rondo and thought he was really torn on whether to stay or not.  Ainge still had this trade season and free agency to try to get another quality player.  Why not go for someone like Monroe in a sign and trade in free agency rather than trading Rondo for so little and settling for a long rebuild.  The East is weak and ripe for the taking.   

[Who]

Kobe is most likely only playing one more year.  I don't think Rondo is at the top of the list of players that the Lakers will try to throw Max money at.  I also don't think Max money or glitz is at the top of Rondo's list.  I thinks he wants the limelight and challenge of playing for a contender.  Considering the limited options available, I think Ainge had a good chance to resign Rondo if he offered him good money (not Max money) and a non-trade clause.

You really just can't get past the idea that Rondo probably wanted out can you? Oh well, no more banging my head against a wall. Goodnight, agree to disagree. A Tommy Point for your passion.

I want more clarity on the subject = Rondo wanting out and would have left this summer as FA.

Rondo has said nothing. Ainge has said nothing. Stevens has said nothing.

[tazzmaniac]

Kobe is most likely only playing one more year.  I don't think Rondo is at the top of the list of players that the Lakers will try to throw Max money at.  I also don't think Max money or glitz is at the top of Rondo's list.  I thinks he wants the limelight and challenge of playing for a contender.  Considering the limited options available, I think Ainge had a good chance to resign Rondo if he offered him good money (not Max money) and a non-trade clause.

You really just can't get past the idea that Rondo probably wanted out can you? Oh well, no more banging my head against a wall. Goodnight, agree to disagree. A Tommy Point for your passion.

My first TP.  I'll treasure it.  I don't think Rondo wanted out.  I think he did start doubting that Ainge could put together a contender anytime soon.  I'll also think Rondo isn't sold on CBS and his system.  On the plus side, I now have a playoff team to cheer for during this long rebuild.