Author Topic: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?  (Read 4045 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« on: November 23, 2014, 04:55:11 AM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
The Cs are in limbo of some sort. It's clear what their direction is: develop the team's youth, maximize the value of the team's vets, collect assets. But I must admit it is unclear whether the team is more keen on cashing in on its wealth of assets, or exchanging our proven players for more of those assets. What would you like to see more of?

Obviously the best answer is, whatever is of best value and helps our team the most. Dig a little deeper. Would you find yourself happier if Ainge gave up one more first rounder than he should for Larry Sanders or Josh Smith than if he sold Rondo and Jeff Green for one less first rounder than he should?

Cashing in

Here's a few deals that could elevate the Cs to playoff contention level and put us in position to attract a big name this summer:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=o9s572v

BOS trades: Brandon Bass, Kelly Olynyk, 2016 BKN 1st
MIL trades: Larry Sanders

Would Milwaukee do this deal? I'm not so sure. Danny might have to throw in the Philly seconds... how would you feel about that, even if it might be an overpay?

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m44y2fm

BOS trades: Gerald Wallace, Vitor Faverani, Jared Sullinger, James Young, 2015 LAC 1st, 2016 BOS 1st
ATL trades: Al Horford, Kyle Korver

Rondo/Smart/Pressey
Korver/AB/[Smart]
J. Green/Turner/[Korver]
Horford/[J. Green]
L. Sanders/T. Zeller

How would that team fare?

Keep collecting

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=k5earvr

BOS trades: Jeff Green
DET trades: Jonas Jerebko, ol' friend J. Anthony, K. Caldwell-Pope, 2016 DET 1st

This to me is a slight underpay, although that pick has some intriguing potential. Would you want Danny to do this even if you felt Detroit was getting away with a bargain so as to prevent getting nothing if JG was to leave in the summer?

This idea was floated back in the Summer after people were confused about the implications of a Marc Stein tweet regarding Indiana's interest in Rondo and Dragic. The deal couldn't be done until the trade restrictions on PJ Tucker and Anthony Tolliver are lifted.

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6525300

BOS trades: Rajon Rondo
BOS receives: PJ Tucker, Alex Len, TJ Warren, 2015 LAL 1st (top 5 protected), 2015 PHX 1st

IND trades: Roy Hibbert
IND receives: Goran Dragic, Anthony Tolliver, Shavlik Randolph

PHX trades: Goran Dragic, PJ Tucker, Anthony Tolliver, Alex Len, TJ Warren, Shavlik Randolph, 2015 LAL 1st, 2015 PHX 1st
PHX receives: Rajon Rondo, Roy Hibbert

edit: This doesn't necessarily have to be a three-team deal.

Who says no? For fun, this is what PHX's lineup would look like:

Rondo/IT/Ennis
Bledsoe/Archie Goodwin/[Gerald Green]
Markieff Morris/G. Green
Marcus Morris/[Miles Plumlee]
Roy Hibbert/Plumlee

Anyways, discuss. I'm interested to see what people want more.


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 10:13:31 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13129
  • Tommy Points: 885
Bass will be traded to a contending team not a team like the Bucks.

Atlanta won't be taking on Wallace in a deal for Horford and Korver regardless of two firsts and Sully.

We can't be traded J Anthony back yet.

The suns won't trade Dragic, who can play the 2 slot, for another PG since they already have two that could be worthy of starting.

Why would we be "cashing in" on our assets when we also trade our two best players in Rondo and Green. They would be the guys we'd want to build around in a scenario if we were "cashing in."

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 10:14:08 AM »

Offline Chris22

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5081
  • Tommy Points: 460
Keep collecting....

2015 - two first round picks, ours and the Clippers
2016 - three first round picks, ours and the Nets and the Cavs
2017 - one first round pick, the better of ours or the Nets
2018 - two first round picks, ours and the Nets

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 10:54:27 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
MIL would laugh at the deal, I fear.

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 11:01:46 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8825
  • Tommy Points: 289
This team needs to find a superstar/top ten player first without getting one of those no sense on cashing in.

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 12:00:07 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
Cashing in when there is a player available worth cashing for. 

Players like Sanders are not worth it.


So for now, wait.

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 03:22:54 PM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Bass will be traded to a contending team not a team like the Bucks.

Atlanta won't be taking on Wallace in a deal for Horford and Korver regardless of two firsts and Sully.

We can't be traded J Anthony back yet.

The suns won't trade Dragic, who can play the 2 slot, for another PG since they already have two that could be worthy of starting.

Why would we be "cashing in" on our assets when we also trade our two best players in Rondo and Green. They would be the guys we'd want to build around in a scenario if we were "cashing in."

Bass will be traded to whatever team makes the best offer. Bucks wouldn't be trading for Bass anyway, they'd be trading for Olynyk/1st rounder/PHI 2nds.

I beg to differ on ATL. If their management is set on dealing Horford, Sully, Young and two firsts is a heck of an offer (even if they have to give up Korver as well).

Rondo/Hibbert would make PHX a contender. Bledsoe can play the 2 as well.

I have the Rondo/Green deals under "keep collecting" as in get value for them. Their trades are properly labeled. The "cashing in" trades are above, in which we keep Rondo and Green and surround them with veteran talent.


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 03:35:51 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2853
  • Tommy Points: 182
Rondo and Hibbert don't fit Phoenix's style at all, so I dispute the notion that those two would "make Phoenix a contender."  Phoenix plays an uptempo, high-octane offense with its guards handling the bulk of the scoring.  Factor in the assets you're expecting them to surrender (two young players, two firsts, including the Lakers') and I don't see any possible way they even consider it for a second.

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2014, 04:33:55 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
Cashing in when there is a player available worth cashing for. 

Players like Sanders are not worth it.

So for now, wait.
yup, pretty much this.

the basic principle is to
- keep the vets worth keeping because they give you an advantage over the competition (basically Rondo)
- trade/release the vets that can be replaced (basically of the other vets on our roster)
- keep the young players that look to become quality starters or bench players (Sully, KO, Smart, Young)
- move/release the young players that figure to just be ok rotation players (Zeller, Fav,  AB)
- use draft picks to either add good young talent or to facilitate trades for better players

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2014, 04:39:15 PM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Cashing in when there is a player available worth cashing for. 

Players like Sanders are not worth it.

So for now, wait.
yup, pretty much this.

the basic principle is to
- keep the vets worth keeping because they give you an advantage over the competition (basically Rondo)
- trade/release the vets that can be replaced (basically of the other vets on our roster)
- keep the young players that look to become quality starters or bench players (Sully, KO, Smart, Young)
- move/release the young players that figure to just be ok rotation players (Zeller, Fav,  AB)
- use draft picks to either add good young talent or to facilitate trades for better players

I agree with this, but that's not the point of the question. I've found a lot of posters clamoring for Ainge to stop being stingy with our draft pick stockpile to get proven players and a lot of posters clamoring to dump Rondo/Green even if we sell low so we can move forward and collect more assets. So the question is, would you rather have Ainge give up one more draft pick than he should for a proven player or sell Rondo/Green for one less draft pick than he should for the sake of collecting any value he can as insurance in case they leave?


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2014, 04:41:57 PM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Rondo and Hibbert don't fit Phoenix's style at all, so I dispute the notion that those two would "make Phoenix a contender."  Phoenix plays an uptempo, high-octane offense with its guards handling the bulk of the scoring.  Factor in the assets you're expecting them to surrender (two young players, two firsts, including the Lakers') and I don't see any possible way they even consider it for a second.

This is interesting, you may be right. Let me ask you this: if you're Phoenix and you believe Rondo/Bledsoe/Morris/Morris/Hibbert + IT/G. Green/Plumlee off the bench is a contender in the right system, do you sacrifice those assets to get them and force Hornacek to change his system?


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2014, 04:54:01 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2853
  • Tommy Points: 182
Honestly, no - for the simple facts that under Hornacek's system:
* the Suns had a 23-win improvement over the season before
* a number of players had career years, most notably Dragic winning Most Improved Player
* the Suns had their most successful season since 2009-10 - despite the fact that Steve Nash was on the team until 2012
* they were just one win short of making the playoffs in a season that saw Bledsoe miss 39 games

Basically, if I were in the Suns' front office, I'd say "why mess with a good thing?"  After all, they have first-hand experience of what can go wrong when you force changes in a working system to accommodate personnel (see: the failed Shaq experiment).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 04:59:04 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2014, 05:13:25 PM »

Offline TheFlex

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2791
  • Tommy Points: 367
Honestly, no - for the simple facts that under Hornacek's system:
* the Suns had a 23-win improvement over the season before
* a number of players had career years, most notably Dragic winning Most Improved Player
* the Suns had their most successful season since 2009-10 - despite the fact that Steve Nash was on the team until 2012
* they were just one win short of making the playoffs in a season that saw Bledsoe miss 39 games

Basically, if I were in the Suns' front office, I'd say "why mess with a good thing?"  After all, they have first-hand experience of what can go wrong when you force changes in a working system to accommodate personnel (see: the failed Shaq experiment).

I would say no as well but for a different reason -- transforming the team's identity would take longer than half a season and if they lose Rondo in the offseason, it would all have been a waste of time and assets. If Rondo promised to extend his contract, I think they would do it.

I disagree with you slightly on one point. The Suns have a "good thing" but that good thing may never reach championship fruition. Though a Rondo/Hibbert implementation would be risky, its reward is likely greater than the ceiling of this current Suns team. I think Rondo/Hibbert combined at this point in their careers is more enticing than Shaq was at that point in his career.


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2014, 05:21:58 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2853
  • Tommy Points: 182
It's only been one year and they were missing one of their key players for nearly half of it; there's really not enough to look at to say that the system can't be successful.  And even from the limited sample size we have, it's already shown to be much more effective than the systems they were running from 2010 to 2013.  I think they ride this experiment out for at least another year.

And the issue wasn't simply that they had an older Shaq, but that he killed their running game.  Hibbert might be younger than Shaq on the Suns was, but he's still a plodding, immobile center.  If you look at the Suns' bigs, they're all active, athletic guys who can move up and down the court.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 05:28:50 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: On our assets: cash in? Or keep collecting?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2014, 05:30:09 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3173
  • Tommy Points: 182
Look how badly the Pacers screwed up by adding the wrong player(s) to their system.  They were a playoff contender until the trade, that on paper made them better, but in reality made them a worse team.

I would say no as well but for a different reason -- transforming the team's identity would take longer than half a season and if they lose Rondo in the offseason, it would all have been a waste of time and assets. If Rondo promised to extend his contract, I think they would do it.

I disagree with you slightly on one point. The Suns have a "good thing" but that good thing may never reach championship fruition. Though a Rondo/Hibbert implementation would be risky, its reward is likely greater than the ceiling of this current Suns team. I think Rondo/Hibbert combined at this point in their careers is more enticing than Shaq was at that point in his career.

As for cashing in.  I don't really see anybody good that is 'on the block' right now.  We missed out on Kevin Love.  Who else is 'available' who would actually improve the team?