Author Topic: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade  (Read 10126 times)

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Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2014, 07:57:15 PM »

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In terms of the Cavs being mediocre, remember that Lebron's first Heat squad started 9-8.  It's probably lucky that they didn't blow it up after 11 games.

Different situation.

I don't think anybody ever questioned whether or not Wade would be able to subdue his game for the betterment of the team. Wade had already proven himself to be a leader and was far more mature at that stage of his career.

Kyrie on the other hand still seems to be very immature and out to 'get his'. I question if he is ready to do what it takes to be a team player. He has a lot to prove in this area. This isn't uncommon for players as young as Kyrie.

I disagree.  That first season, I think it was very much in doubt whether Wade and Lebron would fit together, both due to their skill sets and because both were alpha dogs.  It was only in Year 2 -- when Lebron got more assertive -- that the Heat truly clicked; before that, they got by on talent alone.

It's going to be an adjustment process in Cleveland.  There are a bunch of guys who have never played together, along with a rookie head coach who has made plenty of mistakes.  Yes, Kyrie at times dribbles too much looking for a driving lane, but he's been the Cavs' most consistent player this year.

Once Love and Lebron start playing like they're capable of, the team will look a lot better.  We've seen signs of it, but the players have shown a tendency to default into iso ball.

Yeah, there were quite a few people even saying that LeBron should be the one to step back and take the #2 seat. That D-Wade had the killer instinct that LeBron didn't and has already proven he can lead a team to a Championship.

Wade had a hard time accepting a smaller role to LeBron that first year.

And Bosh, jeez ... they never got him working well on offense. 4 years. Never got him working well with LeBron + Wade. 14ppg in the playoffs over last 3 years? How do you let a big man as skilled (the only skilled big on the roster) as Chris Bosh be so badly under-utilized?

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2014, 08:01:47 PM »

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I think LeBron deserves a lot of the criticism for not making it work with Kyrie and K-Love and I think it further highlights how hard he was to play with for D-Wade and Bosh.

I think it really puts to question just how good LeBron's teamwork and unselfishness really are.

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2014, 08:11:39 PM »

Online SHAQATTACK

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Maybe it will be a three way trade that sends Rondo to Cavs ,  Irving to a team with a top five lottery pick that DA  could draft a center ...this year.

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2014, 10:04:55 PM »

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I think that those saying Cleveland would totally be against the deal may not totally be thinking things through. Sure Lebron is a facilitator who likes the ball in his hands, but this isn't quite working this year and I agree with the poster that compared him to Pierce pre and post big three (although Lebron is obviously a superior player) -  Lebron may want to dial it back a bit as he ages and take over only when needed.

However, it really isn't about Lebron in my opinion - Love is in the final year of his contract. If Cleveland hopes to retain his services, they have to make him happy. Bringing in a playmaker like Rondo will certainly get him more looks and could make him more likely to sign on again.

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2014, 10:06:09 PM »

Offline chambers

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I don't think that Rondo would be a great fit next to Lebron, who wants / needs the ball in his hands.  Rondo is borderline useless offensively off the ball.

Lebron has never played with a pass pg before.   These days if you see him play he does not want to bring up the ball unless he feels like he has to take over the game.  Just like how Pierce was before demanding the ball at any point of the game, i don't think Rondo will have a problem giving up the ball to Lebron anytime he wants it , especially in the 4th quarter

Right now the issue with the cavs is that Irving brings up the ball but alot of times does not know "naturally" what to do with it.  In the 4th quarter he wants to score but this is also where guys like Lebron and Love want to shine. There is a struggle

Irving on the Celtics team can rely on guys like Green, Sully, KO , Smart's passing to get the offense working and also jack up 20-22 shots without worry and get the team the points it needs. Most importantly score those less than 5 min points to close out the game

How much better do you think the Celtics would be right now if they exchanged Rondo for Irving?

Better. The team will have a chance to win more close score games. Backcourt defense will be better

I seriously doubt that's true.  Irving is a worse defender than Rondo.

There are some things Rondo is better at the defensive end, but Irving is younger and is a better 1 on 1 defender right now. Anyways it's not defensive needs that we would be getting Irving. It's his ability to score, maximize the passing abilities from guys like KO, Sully, Green and have him be the "finisher" for the team.

I disagree.  I don't think Irving would make the team better offensively.  As a matter of fact, I believe he would hamper the play of Olynyk, Sully, and Green, as opposed to maximizing their abilities.  The fact that those guys play with a pass first PG is good for them as scorers. 

If you think just giving the ball to Irving and asking him to take all the shots would improve the team's chemistry or offensive production, I think you are mistaken.

On the flipside, having a player that can create his own looks, will cause double teams, and subsequently open looks for teammates.

On the double flip side, Rondo almost always draws multiple defenders when he gets into the lane, thus creating open looks for teammates.

yes for some parts of the game but in the 4th quarter or against smart teams, they won't be dumb to double Rondo.  You dare Rondo to shoot and stay with your man or play zone defense. Thats how you can beat us and how we have lost so many games late now

But that's because we don't have a complete team.
If Rondo goes for a layup, or ANY player comes off a pick and goes to the basket then they are likely to be double teamed- the beauty of Rondo is that he'll find those open shooters or players much better than others.
I don't know where you got the 'play zone defense' line from, because Rondo destroys zone defenses with his ability to get by his defender.
How many guys can stay in front of Rondo in the NBA?

It's fair enough if you want to trade Rondo for a good PG that can shoot, but you can't blame him for not having any good team mates to help carry the load.
There are 2 guys in the NBA that have the ability to carry an entire team, night in and night out, and those guys are Lebron and Durant.
Rondo has Green, Sullinger and Olynyk as his wing men for god's sake. A 3rd year and 2nd year player with Avery Bradley.
The only one of those guys that would start on a true contender are maybe Sullinger and maybe Jeff Green.
He's playing with inexperienced, average NBA players.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2014, 12:00:48 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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I don't think that Rondo would be a great fit next to Lebron, who wants / needs the ball in his hands.  Rondo is borderline useless offensively off the ball.

Lebron has never played with a pass pg before.   These days if you see him play he does not want to bring up the ball unless he feels like he has to take over the game.  Just like how Pierce was before demanding the ball at any point of the game, i don't think Rondo will have a problem giving up the ball to Lebron anytime he wants it , especially in the 4th quarter

Right now the issue with the cavs is that Irving brings up the ball but alot of times does not know "naturally" what to do with it.  In the 4th quarter he wants to score but this is also where guys like Lebron and Love want to shine. There is a struggle

Irving on the Celtics team can rely on guys like Green, Sully, KO , Smart's passing to get the offense working and also jack up 20-22 shots without worry and get the team the points it needs. Most importantly score those less than 5 min points to close out the game

How much better do you think the Celtics would be right now if they exchanged Rondo for Irving?

Better. The team will have a chance to win more close score games. Backcourt defense will be better

I seriously doubt that's true.  Irving is a worse defender than Rondo.

There are some things Rondo is better at the defensive end, but Irving is younger and is a better 1 on 1 defender right now. Anyways it's not defensive needs that we would be getting Irving. It's his ability to score, maximize the passing abilities from guys like KO, Sully, Green and have him be the "finisher" for the team.

I disagree.  I don't think Irving would make the team better offensively.  As a matter of fact, I believe he would hamper the play of Olynyk, Sully, and Green, as opposed to maximizing their abilities.  The fact that those guys play with a pass first PG is good for them as scorers. 

If you think just giving the ball to Irving and asking him to take all the shots would improve the team's chemistry or offensive production, I think you are mistaken.

On the flipside, having a player that can create his own looks, will cause double teams, and subsequently open looks for teammates.

On the double flip side, Rondo almost always draws multiple defenders when he gets into the lane, thus creating open looks for teammates.

yes for some parts of the game but in the 4th quarter or against smart teams, they won't be dumb to double Rondo.  You dare Rondo to shoot and stay with your man or play zone defense. Thats how you can beat us and how we have lost so many games late now

But that's because we don't have a complete team.
If Rondo goes for a layup, or ANY player comes off a pick and goes to the basket then they are likely to be double teamed- the beauty of Rondo is that he'll find those open shooters or players much better than others.
I don't know where you got the 'play zone defense' line from, because Rondo destroys zone defenses with his ability to get by his defender.
How many guys can stay in front of Rondo in the NBA?

That's not how you beat a zone. Not at all.

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2014, 01:00:23 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I don't think that Rondo would be a great fit next to Lebron, who wants / needs the ball in his hands.  Rondo is borderline useless offensively off the ball.

Lebron has never played with a pass pg before.   These days if you see him play he does not want to bring up the ball unless he feels like he has to take over the game.  Just like how Pierce was before demanding the ball at any point of the game, i don't think Rondo will have a problem giving up the ball to Lebron anytime he wants it , especially in the 4th quarter

Right now the issue with the cavs is that Irving brings up the ball but alot of times does not know "naturally" what to do with it.  In the 4th quarter he wants to score but this is also where guys like Lebron and Love want to shine. There is a struggle

Irving on the Celtics team can rely on guys like Green, Sully, KO , Smart's passing to get the offense working and also jack up 20-22 shots without worry and get the team the points it needs. Most importantly score those less than 5 min points to close out the game

How much better do you think the Celtics would be right now if they exchanged Rondo for Irving?

Better. The team will have a chance to win more close score games. Backcourt defense will be better

I seriously doubt that's true.  Irving is a worse defender than Rondo.

There are some things Rondo is better at the defensive end, but Irving is younger and is a better 1 on 1 defender right now. Anyways it's not defensive needs that we would be getting Irving. It's his ability to score, maximize the passing abilities from guys like KO, Sully, Green and have him be the "finisher" for the team.

I disagree.  I don't think Irving would make the team better offensively.  As a matter of fact, I believe he would hamper the play of Olynyk, Sully, and Green, as opposed to maximizing their abilities.  The fact that those guys play with a pass first PG is good for them as scorers. 

If you think just giving the ball to Irving and asking him to take all the shots would improve the team's chemistry or offensive production, I think you are mistaken.

On the flipside, having a player that can create his own looks, will cause double teams, and subsequently open looks for teammates.

On the double flip side, Rondo almost always draws multiple defenders when he gets into the lane, thus creating open looks for teammates.

yes for some parts of the game but in the 4th quarter or against smart teams, they won't be dumb to double Rondo.  You dare Rondo to shoot and stay with your man or play zone defense. Thats how you can beat us and how we have lost so many games late now

But that's because we don't have a complete team.
If Rondo goes for a layup, or ANY player comes off a pick and goes to the basket then they are likely to be double teamed- the beauty of Rondo is that he'll find those open shooters or players much better than others.
I don't know where you got the 'play zone defense' line from, because Rondo destroys zone defenses with his ability to get by his defender.
How many guys can stay in front of Rondo in the NBA?

That's not how you beat a zone. Not at all.

In the 4th quarter Rondo just brings up the ball , makes a pass around the perimeter and just watches the game like a spectator.   He doesn't bulldoze to the basket to try to get to the line or make wraparound passes around guys trying to block him to the open jump shooter.

So daring him to shoot and playing zone or semi zone works very well against us

Re: Good time for Rondo for Irving trade
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2014, 01:03:04 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400578478

thats 4 loss in row for the Cavs. I wonder if Lebron has steam coming out of his head now