Poll

POLL: If we could get Josh Smith on the cheap, would you trade for him if you were Ainge?

Yes
25 (32.5%)
No
52 (67.5%)

Total Members Voted: 77

Author Topic: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?  (Read 21539 times)

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Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2014, 04:36:30 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I would do a Wallace and Bass for Smith.   If they added a pick.   

Rondo
Bradley
Green
Smith
Sulley

Smart
Thorton
Turner
KO
Zellar

Powell/Young and Victor

I think the pick, in that scenario, would have to come from us. They're getting Wallace's salary and an expiring in Bass, who helps them very short term.

I get it that they save about $13 million in that scenario, but they are giving up, by far, the best player.

Glad more folks seem to be getting on the Josh Smith wagon. Still almost 2 to 1 against in the poll though.
In my view, Smith has a huge net negative value.  Moreso even than Wallace.  The best player in the deal is Bass, who is a small net positive.

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2014, 05:00:48 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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I would do a Wallace and Bass for Smith.   If they added a pick.   

Rondo
Bradley
Green
Smith
Sulley

Smart
Thorton
Turner
KO
Zellar

Powell/Young and Victor

I think the pick, in that scenario, would have to come from us. They're getting Wallace's salary and an expiring in Bass, who helps them very short term.

I get it that they save about $13 million in that scenario, but they are giving up, by far, the best player.

Glad more folks seem to be getting on the Josh Smith wagon. Still almost 2 to 1 against in the poll though.
In my view, Smith has a huge net negative value.  Moreso even than Wallace.  The best player in the deal is Bass, who is a small net positive.

I'm having a hard time seeing anyone turn down a straight up deal of Josh Smith for either Wallace or Bass, which is what you're implying you would do here.

I mean, I get that the boneheaded, ill-advised shots are unacceptable. But other than that (and GWall has taken his share of those, also), Josh Smith is far more valuable and talented than either Bass or Wallace, and I am fond of those players.

Compared to either GWall or Bass, Smith is much longer and far more athletic, is in his prime, runs the floor, is an excellent passer (as is GWall) is an excellent rebounder and is a strong deterrent in the paint. He is a 4 whose penchant for bad shots was not reeled in last year by a coach who couldn't handle him and by virtue of his playing a position (the 3) that dictates that you shoot 3s.

Is his contract a lot for how he played last year (out of position, by the way at the 3) and this year at times? Yes. That's why we can get him for so cheap.

Given that contracts will be going up with the new TV$$/caps, his contract is not so onerous.

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2014, 05:24:04 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Comparing Gerald Wallace's shot selection to Josh Smith's is like saying the top shelf and the bottom shelf are the same 'because they're both alcohol.'
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2014, 05:34:48 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Comparing Gerald Wallace's shot selection to Josh Smith's is like saying the top shelf and the bottom shelf are the same 'because they're both alcohol.'

80 proof of bottom shelf will give you the same psychtropic efect as 80 proof of top shelf.

Both Wallace and Smith suck at shooting threes, so they both shouldn't shoot them. For that matter, they both suck at mid-range shots too.

.457/.278 is not a whole lot different than .469/.312

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2014, 06:20:00 PM »

Offline chambers

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I would do a Wallace and Bass for Smith.   If they added a pick.   

Rondo
Bradley
Green
Smith
Sulley

Smart
Thorton
Turner
KO
Zellar

Powell/Young and Victor

I think the pick, in that scenario, would have to come from us. They're getting Wallace's salary and an expiring in Bass, who helps them very short term.

I get it that they save about $13 million in that scenario, but they are giving up, by far, the best player.

Glad more folks seem to be getting on the Josh Smith wagon. Still almost 2 to 1 against in the poll though.
In my view, Smith has a huge net negative value.  Moreso even than Wallace.  The best player in the deal is Bass, who is a small net positive.

I'm having a hard time seeing anyone turn down a straight up deal of Josh Smith for either Wallace or Bass, which is what you're implying you would do here.

I mean, I get that the boneheaded, ill-advised shots are unacceptable. But other than that (and GWall has taken his share of those, also), Josh Smith is far more valuable and talented than either Bass or Wallace, and I am fond of those players.

Compared to either GWall or Bass, Smith is much longer and far more athletic, is in his prime, runs the floor, is an excellent passer (as is GWall) is an excellent rebounder and is a strong deterrent in the paint. He is a 4 whose penchant for bad shots was not reeled in last year by a coach who couldn't handle him and by virtue of his playing a position (the 3) that dictates that you shoot 3s.

Is his contract a lot for how he played last year (out of position, by the way at the 3) and this year at times? Yes. That's why we can get him for so cheap.

Given that contracts will be going up with the new TV$$/caps, his contract is not so onerous.

On the surface you might look at this idea and think it's a good deal. In certain circumstances or on another team it *might* be plausible. I don't mind Smith given his defensive prowess and surprising efficiency when forced to take shots from 5 feet or less.
For the Celtics however, trading for Josh Smith will basically never happen. I'd bet my house on it.
It won't happen primarily for 2 reasons:

1) Smith is under contract for 2 more years after this year. Using the precious cap space on Smith is not a smart move after waiting all this time to get Wallace and Bass off the books. He also makes either KO or Sully redundant.

2) having Rondo and Smith on the same team severely disrupts Brad Stevens' offense that relies on at least one stretch big to take advantage of open jump shots and pick and pop opportunities.
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quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2014, 06:48:05 PM »

Offline aporel#18

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If you can get Smith for Wallace + Bass and the Miami pick, why not?

put JS at the 4 with either Sully or Kelly, keep Smith in the paint and send a gazillion picks plus Sully or Kelly at the trade deadline to get Marc Gasol from Memphis. Pray for the kids (Bradley, Smart, Young...) to develop a consistent 3-point and you have a contender.


Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2014, 06:58:22 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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If you can get Smith for Wallace + Bass and the Miami pick, why not?

put JS at the 4 with either Sully or Kelly, keep Smith in the paint and send a gazillion picks plus Sully or Kelly at the trade deadline to get Marc Gasol from Memphis. Pray for the kids (Bradley, Smart, Young...) to develop a consistent 3-point and you have a contender.

Gasol is literally untouchable...
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Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2014, 07:05:16 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I would do a Wallace and Bass for Smith.   If they added a pick.   

Rondo
Bradley
Green
Smith
Sulley

Smart
Thorton
Turner
KO
Zellar

Powell/Young and Victor

I think the pick, in that scenario, would have to come from us. They're getting Wallace's salary and an expiring in Bass, who helps them very short term.

I get it that they save about $13 million in that scenario, but they are giving up, by far, the best player.

Glad more folks seem to be getting on the Josh Smith wagon. Still almost 2 to 1 against in the poll though.
In my view, Smith has a huge net negative value.  Moreso even than Wallace.  The best player in the deal is Bass, who is a small net positive.

I'm having a hard time seeing anyone turn down a straight up deal of Josh Smith for either Wallace or Bass, which is what you're implying you would do here.

I mean, I get that the boneheaded, ill-advised shots are unacceptable. But other than that (and GWall has taken his share of those, also), Josh Smith is far more valuable and talented than either Bass or Wallace, and I am fond of those players.

Compared to either GWall or Bass, Smith is much longer and far more athletic, is in his prime, runs the floor, is an excellent passer (as is GWall) is an excellent rebounder and is a strong deterrent in the paint. He is a 4 whose penchant for bad shots was not reeled in last year by a coach who couldn't handle him and by virtue of his playing a position (the 3) that dictates that you shoot 3s.

Is his contract a lot for how he played last year (out of position, by the way at the 3) and this year at times? Yes. That's why we can get him for so cheap.

Given that contracts will be going up with the new TV$$/caps, his contract is not so onerous.

On the surface you might look at this idea and think it's a good deal. In certain circumstances or on another team it *might* be plausible. I don't mind Smith given his defensive prowess and surprising efficiency when forced to take shots from 5 feet or less.
For the Celtics however, trading for Josh Smith will basically never happen. I'd bet my house on it.
It won't happen primarily for 2 reasons:

1) Smith is under contract for 2 more years after this year. Using the precious cap space on Smith is not a smart move after waiting all this time to get Wallace and Bass off the books. He also makes either KO or Sully redundant.

2) having Rondo and Smith on the same team severely disrupts Brad Stevens' offense that relies on at least one stretch big to take advantage of open jump shots and pick and pop opportunities.
Those are good reasons, but equally if Stevens is a good coach he can adjust to the roster given to him.   That starting lineup may be our best shot in the Rondo era.   

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2014, 07:38:34 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Quote

Those are good reasons {that the trade for Smith won't happen}, but equally if Stevens is a good coach he can adjust to the roster given to him.   That starting lineup may be our best shot in the Rondo era.
[/quote]

I agree with this.

Rondo/Bradley/Green/Smith with Sully or Zeller or KO at the 5. Man, is that a running, defensively nightmarish (for the opposition) lineup? That D will generate a lot of O. Stevens will adjust.

If you get Smith for this cheap, you still have a ton of assets to get that game-changer. I gotta think that Smart + KO or Sully PLUS 2 firsts gets you a real star, somewhere along the line.

If we want to keep Rondo, and I do unless Ainge gets godfathered, getting players with big talent who are ready to play now is imperative. Josh Smith is one step in that direction for very few of our assets.




Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2014, 08:03:12 PM »

Offline Diggles

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Depending on the cap~  I can see next year giving us many options.  IF we trade Wallace for Smith.  (I would)   (they might not) Look who might leave via FA and who could star.  Smith has some kind of star power with his dunks and blocks. 

Could Leave

Rondo
Green
Bass
Thorton

Are under contract.....

Sulley
KO
Smart
Pressy
Smith
Bradley
Zellar
Victor
Powell

I'd pull the trigger if they would take wallace....
Diggles

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2014, 08:23:38 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Comparing Gerald Wallace's shot selection to Josh Smith's is like saying the top shelf and the bottom shelf are the same 'because they're both alcohol.'

80 proof of bottom shelf will give you the same psychtropic efect as 80 proof of top shelf.

Both Wallace and Smith suck at shooting threes, so they both shouldn't shoot them. For that matter, they both suck at mid-range shots too.

.457/.278 is not a whole lot different than .469/.312

Wallace is a lot better at selecting between the options of "shoot" and "don't shoot".
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Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2014, 08:26:55 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I don't know how many of you guys have been watching the Pistons this year, but Josh Smith has been BAD.  And I mean REALLY bad.  Zero effort.  37% shooting with Rondo-esque FT%.  I've watched them 4 or 5 times including once in person and I can't overstate how poorly he's played.  Just one guy's opinion, but I would never want him to wear a Celtic uniform, at any cost.  It's not as though he's going to magically develop a conscience and a killer work ethic and commit to a system.

Why are the Pistons the second worst team in the NBA?  People are variably high on Monroe, Drummond, Smith, Jennings...

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2014, 08:33:11 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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Comparing Gerald Wallace's shot selection to Josh Smith's is like saying the top shelf and the bottom shelf are the same 'because they're both alcohol.'

80 proof of bottom shelf will give you the same psychtropic efect as 80 proof of top shelf.

Both Wallace and Smith suck at shooting threes, so they both shouldn't shoot them. For that matter, they both suck at mid-range shots too.

.457/.278 is not a whole lot different than .469/.312

Wallace is a lot better at selecting between the options of "shoot" and "don't shoot".
Josh Smith shot 265 threes last year at 26%!  Avery Bradley shot 200 for comparison.

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Comparing Gerald Wallace's shot selection to Josh Smith's is like saying the top shelf and the bottom shelf are the same 'because they're both alcohol.'

80 proof of bottom shelf will give you the same psychtropic efect as 80 proof of top shelf.

Both Wallace and Smith suck at shooting threes, so they both shouldn't shoot them. For that matter, they both suck at mid-range shots too.

.457/.278 is not a whole lot different than .469/.312

Wallace is a lot better at selecting between the options of "shoot" and "don't shoot".
Josh Smith shot 265 threes last year at 26%!  Avery Bradley shot 200 for comparison.

I think that most will agree that Smith's stat line is a ridiculously obscene, reckless, selfish pattern.

I submit to you, though, that that pattern is the ONLY reason that we could potentially get him for far below Smith's worth as a 4. He is a 4, and ONLY should play the 4.

Last year, they played him out of position at the 3, a very bad spot for him for many reasons not the least of which is how the position itself prototypically expects players  to take the three ball. As I said earlier inthis thread, that's equivelant to giving a recovering alcoholic a job as a wine-taster. The 3 is his addiction and bad things happen when he takes the three.

Mo Cheeks and lame-duck Loyer could not handle Josh Smith. Smith was brought in as Dumars' boy. Dumars had the bright idea to play him at the 3 and force it down the throats of his coaches. Dumars invested a lot of $$ and years in JSmith and consequently his ego couldn't let him get away from HIS idea that Smith could play the 3.

(As an aside, you almost couldn't blame Dumars, IF SMITH COULD SHOOT from outside of 12 feet. What a frontcourt that could have been. Drummond as your defensive center, Monroe as your strong rebounding, offensive PF and Smith as your athletic, skilled SF. Dumars was all-in and couldn't get away from his hand, to everyone's detriment That's a big reason why Monroe is so p---ed, perhaps irreconcilably so.)

If, and I know it's a huge if, Smith played for the Celtics, he will only play the 4, and Rondo WILL NOT allow him to be so reckless and selfish. Heck, he won't even pass it to him if he isn't down low. Ainge and Stevens won't allow it. I have no doubt that Ainge will not trade for him unless he's sure that he and Rondo and Stevens can keep him in check.

Re: POLL: Josh Smith benched by Van Gundy: do we want him?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2014, 09:20:57 PM »

Offline get_banners

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Yes...but only if they pay a ton of his contract. And since this isn't baseball, and that isn't possible, no way...unless they throw in a handful of picks and/or its for Wallace.