Author Topic: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations  (Read 82740 times)

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Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #285 on: April 11, 2015, 12:39:49 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I've been studying up on Bobby Portis a little bit.  I like him and think he'd be a good pick at fifteen.

I agree. If you like him you'll probably like Trey Lyles. Portis has a nicer stroke but Lyles has the dribbling ability to play an SF/PF in the NBA.
Portis would be a good pick up.
Check out Caris Levert with the Clippers pick too, serious all round player who's been playing injured and his stock will drop. Nasty scorer at the SG/PG spot.

I prefer Portis to Lyles.  Lyles probably has a slightly higher upside, but I also think he has much greater bust potential. 

Portis will be a solid pro. 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #286 on: April 13, 2015, 02:48:13 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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I've been studying up on Bobby Portis a little bit.  I like him and think he'd be a good pick at fifteen.

I agree. If you like him you'll probably like Trey Lyles. Portis has a nicer stroke but Lyles has the dribbling ability to play an SF/PF in the NBA.
Portis would be a good pick up.
Check out Caris Levert with the Clippers pick too, serious all round player who's been playing injured and his stock will drop. Nasty scorer at the SG/PG spot.

I prefer Portis to Lyles.  Lyles probably has a slightly higher upside, but I also think he has much greater bust potential. 

Portis will be a solid pro.

It will be interesting to see how Portis and Lyles and possibly Looney fare against each other in workouts. All three are about the same size and will be likely end up going in the 12-18 range. Out of that grouping Looney is probably the highest ceiling but also the biggest bust risk, Portis is the most NBA ready. I think Lyles is the best mix of the two and probably the most explosive athlete.
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Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #287 on: April 13, 2015, 03:30:46 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
possibly Looney fare against each other in workouts.

he didn't fare too well in the NCAA games I saw,

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #288 on: April 14, 2015, 08:12:38 AM »

Offline krumeto

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keeping this thread going,

I am going to update my draft tiers article I wrote in the fan posts but wanted to throw out my quick thoughts on guys who are helping/hurting them selves in the tourney

Winslow, the big winner he looks like a much more complete player and is playing with a ton of energy. It is also really promising that he is hitting 3s at a nice clip. I had previously viewed him as the 9th player in this draft and the first member of the 3rd tier but now I think he warrants a jump up and could go anywhere from 5th-9th.

Poeltl, he really seemed to step up his intensity in the tourney. He is really raw but watching him vs Okafor and against the the small lineup of SF Austin really shows his physical potential. The fact that his biggest weakness is his strength is very promising. He looks like a kid who will have no problem adding 15-20 lbs as he gets into his early 20s. If he enters he is a lock to go lottery and a player I would love to see in Green.

Hollis-Jefferson, if only he could shoot. He has been the consummate energy/hustle guy. A rare player who has guarded the best scoring guard (Russell) and the best scoring big (Kaminsky) in the same Tourney. Is painfully stuck as with limited offense but will make it in the NBA on energy and D alone. One glimmer of hope is the fact that he is getting to the FT line and seems to be improving there.

 Dekker
, while Kaminsky was the focus all regular season and Dekker struggled with injures he has suddenly exploded.  He has always been a player who scouts seem to be high on that never really showed it on the court, untill now. RD 1 20pts, RD 2 17pts, RD 3 23, RD 4 27. It also is very impressive that the 3rd and 4th round games where against Arizona and UNC two teams full on NBA length and athleticism. He is a kid who is peaking at the right time and his production coupled with size should push him into a spot in the post lottery teens. If the Cs make the playoffs and dont trade up I could see DA taking him at 15/16. 

Dawson, he isnt flashy but if he can prove to teams that he can improve his shot I can see him going early second. He has the perfect game/physical profile for a utility 3/4 in the mold of a poor mans Drayomd Green. While he isnt putting up big scoring numbers he is rebounding, defending and blocking shots.

Lyles, I was guilty of ignoring Lyles during the regular season and focusing on Towns, WCS and Johnson. I always just looked at him as a non shooting SF that was just big and athletic. The more I have seen of him this tourney it is clear he is a special player and on his way to being a very versatile starting PF. His mobility and teamates actually skewed my perception of him. I didnt realize how big he actually measured at 6'9 (with out shoes) and a 7'3.5" wingspan he is taller/longer then alot of starting PFs in the NBA.
I'm a bit intrigued with Ronda Hollis-Jefferson. He has a great handle and is one of the better athletes in the draft. If he can develop a jump shot, he could be a similar player to a Paul George. If we we get the 16th pick, I would probably prefer him over someone like Lyles.

George isnt a great comp to Hollis-Jefferson, PG was a great shooter in college. He came out of college with a slightly flawed (high TO rate) but obvious offensive skill set. Hollis-Jefferson on the other hand is extremely raw offensivly.

I would say MKG or a young Gerald Wallace are the best comps for Hollis-Jefferson. MKG and RHJ share nearly identical college stats. Like wallace and MKG Hollis-Jefferson can make it in the NBA on athleticism, energy and D along. If he develops any kind of outside shot it will be a bonus.

Anticipating the answers I know I will regret it, but RHJ and Kawhi are very, very similar across the board coming out of college.

Similar body type with huge wingspans, tremendous defenders, similarly bad shooting-wise. Percentages and production is pretty identical too. MKG and Wallace are the better comparisons, but one can hope for the best.

Kawhi http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#college::none
RHJ http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/rondae-hollis-jefferson-1.html

At least with RHJ the floor is high. At the minimum he will be elite defensive role player.
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Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #289 on: April 14, 2015, 08:43:17 AM »

Offline saltlover

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keeping this thread going,

I am going to update my draft tiers article I wrote in the fan posts but wanted to throw out my quick thoughts on guys who are helping/hurting them selves in the tourney

Winslow, the big winner he looks like a much more complete player and is playing with a ton of energy. It is also really promising that he is hitting 3s at a nice clip. I had previously viewed him as the 9th player in this draft and the first member of the 3rd tier but now I think he warrants a jump up and could go anywhere from 5th-9th.

Poeltl, he really seemed to step up his intensity in the tourney. He is really raw but watching him vs Okafor and against the the small lineup of SF Austin really shows his physical potential. The fact that his biggest weakness is his strength is very promising. He looks like a kid who will have no problem adding 15-20 lbs as he gets into his early 20s. If he enters he is a lock to go lottery and a player I would love to see in Green.

Hollis-Jefferson, if only he could shoot. He has been the consummate energy/hustle guy. A rare player who has guarded the best scoring guard (Russell) and the best scoring big (Kaminsky) in the same Tourney. Is painfully stuck as with limited offense but will make it in the NBA on energy and D alone. One glimmer of hope is the fact that he is getting to the FT line and seems to be improving there.

 Dekker
, while Kaminsky was the focus all regular season and Dekker struggled with injures he has suddenly exploded.  He has always been a player who scouts seem to be high on that never really showed it on the court, untill now. RD 1 20pts, RD 2 17pts, RD 3 23, RD 4 27. It also is very impressive that the 3rd and 4th round games where against Arizona and UNC two teams full on NBA length and athleticism. He is a kid who is peaking at the right time and his production coupled with size should push him into a spot in the post lottery teens. If the Cs make the playoffs and dont trade up I could see DA taking him at 15/16. 

Dawson, he isnt flashy but if he can prove to teams that he can improve his shot I can see him going early second. He has the perfect game/physical profile for a utility 3/4 in the mold of a poor mans Drayomd Green. While he isnt putting up big scoring numbers he is rebounding, defending and blocking shots.

Lyles, I was guilty of ignoring Lyles during the regular season and focusing on Towns, WCS and Johnson. I always just looked at him as a non shooting SF that was just big and athletic. The more I have seen of him this tourney it is clear he is a special player and on his way to being a very versatile starting PF. His mobility and teamates actually skewed my perception of him. I didnt realize how big he actually measured at 6'9 (with out shoes) and a 7'3.5" wingspan he is taller/longer then alot of starting PFs in the NBA.
I'm a bit intrigued with Ronda Hollis-Jefferson. He has a great handle and is one of the better athletes in the draft. If he can develop a jump shot, he could be a similar player to a Paul George. If we we get the 16th pick, I would probably prefer him over someone like Lyles.

George isnt a great comp to Hollis-Jefferson, PG was a great shooter in college. He came out of college with a slightly flawed (high TO rate) but obvious offensive skill set. Hollis-Jefferson on the other hand is extremely raw offensivly.

I would say MKG or a young Gerald Wallace are the best comps for Hollis-Jefferson. MKG and RHJ share nearly identical college stats. Like wallace and MKG Hollis-Jefferson can make it in the NBA on athleticism, energy and D along. If he develops any kind of outside shot it will be a bonus.

Anticipating the answers I know I will regret it, but RHJ and Kawhi are very, very similar across the board coming out of college.

Similar body type with huge wingspans, tremendous defenders, similarly bad shooting-wise. Percentages and production is pretty identical too. MKG and Wallace are the better comparisons, but one can hope for the best.

Kawhi http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#college::none
RHJ http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/rondae-hollis-jefferson-1.html

At least with RHJ the floor is high. At the minimum he will be elite defensive role player.

I think that's a pretty big stretch to compare him to Kawhi.  Neither were great shooters in college, but Leonard was 29.1% (not good) from 3, while RHJ was 20.7% (downright terrible).  RHJ didn't attempt many 3's, which means he and his coach understood what good and bad shot selection was, but still -- if RHJ showed the comparable amount of shooting improvement that Kawhi did in the pros, he'd be about as good as Sully from deep.  I don't see him ever becoming a shooting threat.

Also, Kawhi was an amazing rebounder, especially for a non-center.  He was 4th nationally in total rebounds, and one of the guys ahead of him was Faried.  That was an incredibly elite skill, which has translated to the pro game (20.5 DREB% this year.)  RHJ is a fine rebounder, and probably won't hurt you there, but that's another one of the little things that Kawhi does very well.

Finally, Kawhi put up much better assist numbers than RHJ in college, showing that you could run an offense through him.  Not so with RHJ.  RHJ might turn out to be a useful NBA player, but I think he'd have been very successful if he could be a bigger Tony Allen.  I don't think there's any superstar potential for RHJ.

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #290 on: April 14, 2015, 09:24:55 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Dekker crashed back to earth in the final game.  He woke up.

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #291 on: April 14, 2015, 09:25:32 AM »

Offline krumeto

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keeping this thread going,

I am going to update my draft tiers article I wrote in the fan posts but wanted to throw out my quick thoughts on guys who are helping/hurting them selves in the tourney

Winslow, the big winner he looks like a much more complete player and is playing with a ton of energy. It is also really promising that he is hitting 3s at a nice clip. I had previously viewed him as the 9th player in this draft and the first member of the 3rd tier but now I think he warrants a jump up and could go anywhere from 5th-9th.

Poeltl, he really seemed to step up his intensity in the tourney. He is really raw but watching him vs Okafor and against the the small lineup of SF Austin really shows his physical potential. The fact that his biggest weakness is his strength is very promising. He looks like a kid who will have no problem adding 15-20 lbs as he gets into his early 20s. If he enters he is a lock to go lottery and a player I would love to see in Green.

Hollis-Jefferson, if only he could shoot. He has been the consummate energy/hustle guy. A rare player who has guarded the best scoring guard (Russell) and the best scoring big (Kaminsky) in the same Tourney. Is painfully stuck as with limited offense but will make it in the NBA on energy and D alone. One glimmer of hope is the fact that he is getting to the FT line and seems to be improving there.

 Dekker
, while Kaminsky was the focus all regular season and Dekker struggled with injures he has suddenly exploded.  He has always been a player who scouts seem to be high on that never really showed it on the court, untill now. RD 1 20pts, RD 2 17pts, RD 3 23, RD 4 27. It also is very impressive that the 3rd and 4th round games where against Arizona and UNC two teams full on NBA length and athleticism. He is a kid who is peaking at the right time and his production coupled with size should push him into a spot in the post lottery teens. If the Cs make the playoffs and dont trade up I could see DA taking him at 15/16. 

Dawson, he isnt flashy but if he can prove to teams that he can improve his shot I can see him going early second. He has the perfect game/physical profile for a utility 3/4 in the mold of a poor mans Drayomd Green. While he isnt putting up big scoring numbers he is rebounding, defending and blocking shots.

Lyles, I was guilty of ignoring Lyles during the regular season and focusing on Towns, WCS and Johnson. I always just looked at him as a non shooting SF that was just big and athletic. The more I have seen of him this tourney it is clear he is a special player and on his way to being a very versatile starting PF. His mobility and teamates actually skewed my perception of him. I didnt realize how big he actually measured at 6'9 (with out shoes) and a 7'3.5" wingspan he is taller/longer then alot of starting PFs in the NBA.
I'm a bit intrigued with Ronda Hollis-Jefferson. He has a great handle and is one of the better athletes in the draft. If he can develop a jump shot, he could be a similar player to a Paul George. If we we get the 16th pick, I would probably prefer him over someone like Lyles.

George isnt a great comp to Hollis-Jefferson, PG was a great shooter in college. He came out of college with a slightly flawed (high TO rate) but obvious offensive skill set. Hollis-Jefferson on the other hand is extremely raw offensivly.

I would say MKG or a young Gerald Wallace are the best comps for Hollis-Jefferson. MKG and RHJ share nearly identical college stats. Like wallace and MKG Hollis-Jefferson can make it in the NBA on athleticism, energy and D along. If he develops any kind of outside shot it will be a bonus.

Anticipating the answers I know I will regret it, but RHJ and Kawhi are very, very similar across the board coming out of college.

Similar body type with huge wingspans, tremendous defenders, similarly bad shooting-wise. Percentages and production is pretty identical too. MKG and Wallace are the better comparisons, but one can hope for the best.

Kawhi http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#college::none
RHJ http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/rondae-hollis-jefferson-1.html

At least with RHJ the floor is high. At the minimum he will be elite defensive role player.

I think that's a pretty big stretch to compare him to Kawhi.  Neither were great shooters in college, but Leonard was 29.1% (not good) from 3, while RHJ was 20.7% (downright terrible).  RHJ didn't attempt many 3's, which means he and his coach understood what good and bad shot selection was, but still -- if RHJ showed the comparable amount of shooting improvement that Kawhi did in the pros, he'd be about as good as Sully from deep.  I don't see him ever becoming a shooting threat.

Also, Kawhi was an amazing rebounder, especially for a non-center.  He was 4th nationally in total rebounds, and one of the guys ahead of him was Faried.  That was an incredibly elite skill, which has translated to the pro game (20.5 DREB% this year.)  RHJ is a fine rebounder, and probably won't hurt you there, but that's another one of the little things that Kawhi does very well.

Finally, Kawhi put up much better assist numbers than RHJ in college, showing that you could run an offense through him.  Not so with RHJ.  RHJ might turn out to be a useful NBA player, but I think he'd have been very successful if he could be a bigger Tony Allen.  I don't think there's any superstar potential for RHJ.
I wrote a lengthy answer that was lost due to time-out so I'll keep it short.

It is a stretch but not by much. RHJ actually shot better on jumpshots 36% vs. 31% (Draftexpress data) and was a more efficient scorer in general. I'd say they are/were equal defensively in college. Very similar body types too.

Kawhi's J was better looking though and he was a monster on the glass as you said.

My point is that RHJ's jump shot is not a lost cause. It looks better than MKG's and Wallace's and he is young enough to be restructured successfully as the Kawhi example showed.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 09:44:36 AM by krumeto »
"We do so many defensive drills in practice, I come home and I'm putting the press on my woman, denying her the ball.
Y'all are laughing, but it's sad. I go home and deny the wing."

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #292 on: April 14, 2015, 11:04:37 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Just don't see Lyles as a very good pro prospect. Saw him play 20-25 times this year. Never once did I think, "wow, there's a guy that is really going to be good at the next level." He seems to me to be more inclined to be at best, Jonas Jerebko good and not Kevin Love good.

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #293 on: April 14, 2015, 11:07:52 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Just don't see Lyles as a very good pro prospect. Saw him play 20-25 times this year. Never once did I think, "wow, there's a guy that is really going to be good at the next level." He seems to me to be more inclined to be at best, Jonas Jerebko good and not Kevin Love good.
He's so young and already pretty polished.

Mostly I give him a break for playing out of position for the entire season for the good of the team.

I see him as a good stretch 4 once he develops at the NBA level who is best when he is in a floor spaced system. In college he played the 3 in a system where the lane was as clogged as possible.

I'd rather have Looney but I think Lyles would be my second choice.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #294 on: April 23, 2015, 11:53:08 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Hope Poeltl going back to school doesn't cost team a good big at 16. I believe C's need a good all around big man. Seems all the teams current bigs only give the team a little offense.

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #295 on: April 28, 2015, 02:38:21 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Edit- thread started with same topic.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #296 on: May 23, 2015, 09:35:12 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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With draft season in full swing I started reading back through these post.


One observation I made was how I gradually turned on Kevon Looney. The first few game I watch of his I was sold that he was an elite talent who warranted a top 10 pick. As the season wore on his flawed showed through and I came to my current stance where I view him as a late teens early 20s pick.

These observations may in fact be a little harsh when reconsidered.

Strengths

Extreme length (7'3.5" wing 9'2" standing reach)
elite rebounder
good mobility for size
above average ball handler for size
Showed college 3pt range
only 19 years old

Weakness

dangerous 4/3 tweener
not an explosive athlete
no go to offense moves
struggles against rank opponents

Looking back at these strengths and weaknesses Looney is a risk. His position comes with a very high bust potential as alot of 4/3 type guys are drafted high and flop in the NBA. However with the 16th pick he is well worth the risk. He is years away from contributing and would likely spend the season in Maine but has the potential to fit nicely in BS style. Looking at Jerebkos production with the Celtics it is easy to see Looney excelling in the same but expanded role. Looney and Jerebko are similar size with similar skill sets. While Jerebko is the better shooter Looney is a superior ball handler.

My point here is that I took a hard stance against looney months ago but now looking back at my original thoughts view his an a high risk high reward pick who is worth the Cs gamble.

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Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #297 on: May 23, 2015, 03:35:53 PM »

Offline wiley

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With draft season in full swing I started reading back through these post.


One observation I made was how I gradually turned on Kevon Looney. The first few game I watch of his I was sold that he was an elite talent who warranted a top 10 pick. As the season wore on his flawed showed through and I came to my current stance where I view him as a late teens early 20s pick.

These observations may in fact be a little harsh when reconsidered.

Strengths

Extreme length (7'3.5" wing 9'2" standing reach)
elite rebounder
good mobility for size
above average ball handler for size
Showed college 3pt range
only 19 years old

Weakness

dangerous 4/3 tweener
not an explosive athlete
no go to offense moves
struggles against rank opponents

Looking back at these strengths and weaknesses Looney is a risk. His position comes with a very high bust potential as alot of 4/3 type guys are drafted high and flop in the NBA. However with the 16th pick he is well worth the risk. He is years away from contributing and would likely spend the season in Maine but has the potential to fit nicely in BS style. Looking at Jerebkos production with the Celtics it is easy to see Looney excelling in the same but expanded role. Looney and Jerebko are similar size with similar skill sets. While Jerebko is the better shooter Looney is a superior ball handler.

My point here is that I took a hard stance against looney months ago but now looking back at my original thoughts view his an a high risk high reward pick who is worth the Cs gamble.

Toughest call in the draft in terms of risk imo.  (leaving aside Upshaw, which for me isn't a tough call until the second round).

My instinct says Looney will find a way to contribute.  As far as athletic types I think I'd prefer RHJ at 16 and then if Danny wants Looney trade up from 28. 


Re: It's too early to talk draft but some positive observations
« Reply #298 on: May 23, 2015, 03:54:20 PM »

Offline Who

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I am high on Looney as glue guy at PF position.

I would be very disappointed to take another PF though after Sully and Olynyk in recent years. If Looney is the pick, there better be big changes happening at that PF slot to create balance within team. I don't want 3 young talented PFs all competing for PT at same position. Either end up forcing the team into unbalanced lineups and too many minutes at less desirable position. Or splitting minutes and never getting full amount of minutes each guy deserves and needs to truly develop to the fullest of their potential.