Author Topic: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was  (Read 9613 times)

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Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2014, 07:15:14 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Continued - Aside from last year with KG and Pierce, the most talent that he's ever played with was in his final year in Phoenix, where, even as the 4th option, he was the go-to guy for that team.  A lot of people forget that he got some freakish eye injury in that 2005 series against Dallas, which forced him to miss the final 4 games of said series, as well as the first 2 games against the Spurs, and I believe that, had he been able to play from game 1, that series against the Spurs might have been very different.  I'd still expect San Antonio to have won, but not in 5 games, and not on the Suns' home court.  Check him out in this clip when he's going up against, again, the best defense in the league, or, at least one that was tied equal to Detroit in that distinction that year.  He's being defended by Ginobili, Bowen, Parker, and even Duncan on switches, and they couldn't do anything with him, despite his eyegear ;D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmSSYeHSq0U

Finally, at least to me, it seems that, the more accomplished his teammates are, the more lethal he's been.  Especially in the postseason.  He's probably your 1b scorer if his partner in crime was Pierce, but in crunch time, I'm going to Joe.  Now, the reason why I think he's better than Ray also has to do with the playoffs.  Johnson may not have always had the best of outings (whether that's because of injury and/or defense, idk), but at least he's consistently showed up lol.  As great as Ray Allen was, he was all Katy Perry in the playoffs for us (hot and cold, up and down, blah blah blah ;D) almost every year.  In 2008, he got destroyed by JJ seemingly at will, and only got worse in the next series.  There was even a game where he DIDN'T SCORE.  Yes, Cleveland's defense was excellent, but the way that they shut him out completely for the ENTIRE SERIES was pretty alarming, and his high for points was 16 in game 2.  He scored 4 POINTS in game 7 (a trend which would unfortunately continue in 2010), and his best shooting game was 4-10.  If he wasn't scoring, he wasn't giving you a lot of anything else, and I remember a lot of people on here being worried about it, because that should not have been a 7 game series.  It should have been over in 5, but we couldn't win on the road, and might have lost game 5 if Rondo hadn't saved us.  Personally, I think Doc's 'offense' was mostly to blame, but still, the guy averaged 9.3 ppg on 32.8% from the field and 16.7% from 3 while being guarded by Wally World.  Really, Ray?  I know that Pierce had a turrible series as well, as everyone did aside from KG, but at least he was guarding and being guarded by Lebron.  Ray really only regained his form about midway through the Detroit series iirc, before having an excellent Finals, but you can't deny that he just flat out disappeared, and for long stretches. 

What about the 2009 series against Chicago?  Yes, he hit some incredible shots and had that unreal 51 points in game 4, but he started the series off with a 1-12 showing in game 1, and was shut down by JJ Redick against Orlando, lol.  Do I even need to mention his 3-14 performance in game 7?  Ugh.  I'm not blaming him for game 3 against the Lakers in 2010, btw, because Artest kneed him in the thigh on his first jump shot, in a typical display of class (sarcasm), and I know how incredibly clutch he was, but I believe that Joe would have been a better fit - on both ends.  Especially in crunch time, when plays break down and guys sometimes have to go one-on-one, and the ability to have 2 guys who could create their own shots would have been amazing.  Ray just wasn't that kind of player.  I'm sure that you'll disagree with me here, and that's okay, but I just wanted to get all of that out there.  Now where do I hand this paper in, lol? ;D

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2014, 07:12:24 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Sorry to add anything more here, lol, but, even though KG may have come here because of Ray, Garnett loves Joe Johnson haha, and he nicknamed him Joe Jesus last season ;D, so I don't think that he would have had a problem coming to Boston, especially because if JJ was already here, Wally never would have been on the team, so that problem is eliminated.  Bottom line, I think that having Pierce and Johnson would have been more than enough to convince KG to play in Boston, but we'll never know how that could and would have played out.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2014, 07:22:41 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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i dont think Danny would have wanted to trade Joe Johnson, he definitely wouldnt have mae the rodney rogers trade.  However, like Phoenix, I dont think Danny would have given Joe that ridiculous contract that Atlanta did.

So really, nothing might have ever changed.
Agreed.

It is possible that he doesn't get that contract offer from Atlanta without playing in that Phoenix offense.

Last thing - while I do agree with both of your points about the contract, wasn't it Ainge who gave Mark freakin Blount that huge deal that turned out to be a mistake of epic proportions lol?  I'm just thinking that it may not have been as straight forward as you guys think.  Plus, Joe had averaged 16.7 ppg in 03-04, without Nash, Kidd, and Marbury and Penny were traded mid season, but that was a young team, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that he could have averaged similar numbers with us, especially as the second option, but maybe I'm wrong.  Sadly, we'll never know how lethal he could have been with us.  Sigh.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2014, 08:01:34 PM »

Offline greg683x

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i dont think Danny would have wanted to trade Joe Johnson, he definitely wouldnt have mae the rodney rogers trade.  However, like Phoenix, I dont think Danny would have given Joe that ridiculous contract that Atlanta did.

So really, nothing might have ever changed.
Agreed.

It is possible that he doesn't get that contract offer from Atlanta without playing in that Phoenix offense.

Last thing - while I do agree with both of your points about the contract, wasn't it Ainge who gave Mark freakin Blount that huge deal that turned out to be a mistake of epic proportions lol?  I'm just thinking that it may not have been as straight forward as you guys think.  Plus, Joe had averaged 16.7 ppg in 03-04, without Nash, Kidd, and Marbury and Penny were traded mid season, but that was a young team, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that he could have averaged similar numbers with us, especially as the second option, but maybe I'm wrong.  Sadly, we'll never know how lethal he could have been with us.  Sigh.

Mark Blounts deal was an MLE deal with 15% trade kicker clause in it.  Yes it was a horrible move, but just about every serviceable center in the league back then were getting way overpaid.   

Joe Johnsons contract was 6 years and 119 million and has been called by many as one of worst contracts in basketball history.  Theres really not a comparison here.
Greg

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2014, 12:25:05 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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i dont think Danny would have wanted to trade Joe Johnson, he definitely wouldnt have mae the rodney rogers trade.  However, like Phoenix, I dont think Danny would have given Joe that ridiculous contract that Atlanta did.

So really, nothing might have ever changed.
Agreed.

It is possible that he doesn't get that contract offer from Atlanta without playing in that Phoenix offense.

Last thing - while I do agree with both of your points about the contract, wasn't it Ainge who gave Mark freakin Blount that huge deal that turned out to be a mistake of epic proportions lol?  I'm just thinking that it may not have been as straight forward as you guys think.  Plus, Joe had averaged 16.7 ppg in 03-04, without Nash, Kidd, and Marbury and Penny were traded mid season, but that was a young team, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that he could have averaged similar numbers with us, especially as the second option, but maybe I'm wrong.  Sadly, we'll never know how lethal he could have been with us.  Sigh.

Mark Blounts deal was an MLE deal with 15% trade kicker clause in it.  Yes it was a horrible move, but just about every serviceable center in the league back then were getting way overpaid.   

Joe Johnsons contract was 6 years and 119 million and has been called by many as one of worst contracts in basketball history.  Theres really not a comparison here.

No, but at least Johnson developed into an All Star and one of the best closers in the game (if not the best).  You should also consider that the Hawks were desperate to have anyone be the face of their franchise at that time, and JJ certainly filled that role.  Is he drastically overpaid?  Yes, but at least he lives up to that contract in the biggest of moments.  Isn't that why you should pay someone the big bucks?  Not nearly that much, but still.  It's incredibly difficult to find guys like him, Pierce, KG, and Ray - guys who want the ball in those pressure-packed situations. 

As for Blount, he looked like crap from the first game I ever watched, which was opening night of the 04-05 season.  No passion, no inside play, no defense, no...anything, lol, and that was Danny's first signing/re-signing move as a gm.  I wonder if he would have done to Joe what he did to Rondo, and given him an excellent, but not too expensive, contract extension the year before Rondo had his first incredible postseason run in 2009, which made Ainge look like a genius, financially, lol.  That all I'm saying.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2014, 01:19:29 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Toine needed to go, just not a winning player unless he was pushed into a Boris Diaw type combo forward roll. Too inefficient to be given major touches and starting minutes.

Joe Johnson/Pierce would have been murderous on opposing wings, too much size to handle.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2014, 09:40:02 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Toine needed to go, just not a winning player unless he was pushed into a Boris Diaw type combo forward roll. Too inefficient to be given major touches and starting minutes.

Joe Johnson/Pierce would have been murderous on opposing wings, too much size to handle.

That's my assessment, as well.  I'm sure that this is going off topic (but it's my thread, so who cares, lol?), but, any time I play one of those old 2K NBA games, which is about 4-5 times a year ;D because I'm a HUGE gamer (sarcasm), it's hard for me to play as the Celtics with Ray on the squad.  It just doesn't feel honest or something, I don't know, lol.  Here's the thing - knowing what we know now about how Ray and Lebron feel about each other ::), if Allen had joined James the year that the Cavs tried to recruit him (and Michael Redd) but were unsuccessful and ultimately settled for Larry Hughes, and if Joe Johnson was still a Celtic, if we were to add KG to Rondo, Johnson, and Pierce, could that group have beaten Lebron, Ray Allen, Z, etc?  I honestly don't know, so what do you guys think?  Obviously, Ray would have been a much better fit for Lebron than Hughes or Wade (offensively), but does that mean that Lebron could have won a title even before our group was assembled?  The Pistons and Heat were the powers, then, but the Cavs and Wizards were both extremely dangerous.  Just curious.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2014, 09:51:24 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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We should have had Billups, Johnson, and Pierce as our 1, 2, 3 for a decade.  The team was managed so badly back then.
Yup I remember even at the time thinking the trade for Rodgers and Delk was for the playoff push but probably not the best thing for the long term because JJ was a good prospect with upside.