Author Topic: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was  (Read 9545 times)

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Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« on: November 06, 2014, 06:50:26 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Here's my question - let's say that Chris Wallace doesn't trade Joe to the Suns, and Ainge still takes over a year later.  We know what Danny thought of Antoine, but would he have kept JJ?  We all know how Ainge was always looking for that other star player to put next to Pierce and he tried Wally World and Ricky Davis without success, but in Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce, he would have had the foundation for our title teams.  Al Jefferson probably still would have been a Celtic, along with Delonte, and TA (ugh), but we still would have been mediocre at best.  Would we have had enough to trade for KG, and possibly even a year earlier?  Obviously there would have been no need to trade for Ray Allen, so we would have had even more to offer the Timberwolves, but how many titles does a core of Rondo, Joe, Pierce, and KG win?  Imo, that team would still be together today, and that duo would have been lethal - on both ends.  We would have had 2 starters who could guard Lebron, and Kobe couldn't post either one of them up because of their size, as opposed to what he did to Ray.  I just think that we would have been even better, and Joe, imo, is better than Ray, especially because, not only is he even more clutch than Allen (which is saying a lot), but he also has a post game, unlike Ray, is an excellent passer and can play 1-3, and, perhaps most importantly, his ability to create his own shot when things break down gives him a huge edge.  Now, he may not move like Ray does off of picks, but he can do it very effectively, and, because both he and Pierce are both such great shooters, everyone would still have plenty of room to operate.  This video of him against the Knicks shows it all - fading and coming off screens (including dribbling off of one and swishing a shot when things broke down, creating his own shot), passing, etc.  He just, man.  What a player.  Pierce and Johnson would have been like Wade and Lebron, except that they can shoot and play off the ball.  The only area where the guys from the Heat would have had an advantage is athletically, but even last year, we saw that Pierce can still guard Wade very effectively, and Joe can take Lebron.  Okay, I'm rambling.  Sorry about that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UflZPNxYFoA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlI1XGbyb8

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2014, 07:07:09 PM »

Offline greg683x

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i dont think Danny would have wanted to trade Joe Johnson, he definitely wouldnt have mae the rodney rogers trade.  However, like Phoenix, I dont think Danny would have given Joe that ridiculous contract that Atlanta did.

So really, nothing might have ever changed.

Greg

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2014, 07:31:13 PM »

Offline puskas54_10

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2 things.

1. KG came here because of Ray.
2. he even more clutch than Allen - I find this offensive. I'm not remembering any spectacular shot by Joe, that beats Ray heroics. He never faced the pressure as big as Ray. Joe J. is an underachiver with the passion of last years Jeff Green. He's the most overpaid player in the league in the last 5 years.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2014, 08:03:38 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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i dont think Danny would have wanted to trade Joe Johnson, he definitely wouldnt have mae the rodney rogers trade.  However, like Phoenix, I dont think Danny would have given Joe that ridiculous contract that Atlanta did.

So really, nothing might have ever changed.
Agreed.

It is possible that he doesn't get that contract offer from Atlanta without playing in that Phoenix offense.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2014, 09:18:47 PM »

Offline mgent

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I would have taken Ray over Joe Johnson every year they've been in the league, up until 2012-2013ish.

JJ with Pierce in his prime would have been very interesting, especially with Billups.  But then again so would Pierce + Ray in their primes.
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Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2014, 09:41:21 AM »

Offline Boston3334356

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I still think Joe Johnson is a top 15 shooting guard in the league.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2014, 10:05:17 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I still think Joe Johnson is a top 15 shooting guard in the league.
Yes. Also know as "an average starter at his position".
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 10:40:12 AM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2014, 10:25:51 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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hated that they traded JJ instead of Kedrick in that deal.  didn't understand the fascination for Brown who hadn't shown anything over JJ who showed he had some skills that rookie year.

If JJ had stayed with PP and Toine, they would have pushed the Nets in the playoffs that following year.  JJ had hit the wall his rookie year so I'm not sure he'd have made the difference to get by the Nets that year.

IF Danny still traded Toine to Dallas, I think the JJ/PP combo would have improved the team's position in the standings by a couple of spots each year over where they ended up finishing.  TA probably isn't in the position to blow out his knee and we'd have been in decent shape adding Rondo in our 1-3 positions.  Big Al and Perk would have barely made us a playoff team going forward assuming no KG/Ray trades and assuming we added Jeff Green or Joakim Noah that year.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2014, 10:50:26 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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You can play the "what if game" for any draft but imagine what could have been if we had made a couple changes in that particular draft.

Joe Johnson @ 10
Zach Randolph @ 11
Tony Parker @ 28

2003 we still make the Perk/Banks picks.
2004 still make the Toine trade and take Jefferson, Allen, and replace Delonte with Kevin Martin.

Go into the 2004-2005 season with

Parker/Gary Payton*
Johnson/Ricky Davis*/Allen
Pierce/Martin
Randolph/Lafrentz
Jefferson/Perkins/Blount*

(These guys could be wrong in the chain of events*)

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2014, 10:52:09 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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JJ is and was better than AW.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2014, 11:04:21 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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They still would've had to do something with 'Toine. 

Toine/Pierce/JJ wasn't going to be able to co-exist without the detriment to Joe Johnson.  He looked like a deer in headlights oftentimes that season.  I'm sure part of it was being a rookie but he just did not seem to play with a ton of confidence and I think it was due in large part to the dominating personalities of Antoine and the up & coming Pierce. 

I've mentioned it before on here but I still don't really have a problem with that trade.  In hindsight, it certainly doesn't look the greatest but, at the time, this was an organization that was hurting.  Bottom rung in Boston sports and still getting over the Pitino debacle.   That trade helped lead to a magical playoff run that helped put the Celtics back on the radar in the city of Boston.   Those '02 playoffs were a special time for a bunch of fans who were just children during Bird's heyday but mostly who grew up with the turbulent times of the post Bird days and the absolute dumpster fire that was Pitino.


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Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2014, 11:27:23 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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They still would've had to do something with 'Toine. 

Toine/Pierce/JJ wasn't going to be able to co-exist without the detriment to Joe Johnson.  He looked like a deer in headlights oftentimes that season.  I'm sure part of it was being a rookie but he just did not seem to play with a ton of confidence and I think it was due in large part to the dominating personalities of Antoine and the up & coming Pierce. 

I've mentioned it before on here but I still don't really have a problem with that trade. In hindsight, it certainly doesn't look the greatest but, at the time, this was an organization that was hurting.  Bottom rung in Boston sports and still getting over the Pitino debacle.   That trade helped lead to a magical playoff run that helped put the Celtics back on the radar in the city of Boston.   Those '02 playoffs were a special time for a bunch of fans who were just children during Bird's heyday but mostly who grew up with the turbulent times of the post Bird days and the absolute dumpster fire that was Pitino.
are you talking the JJ trade or the Toine trade to Dallas?  JJ trade was fine with the exception that it was JJ instead of Kedrick sent out.  The Toine trade was after those playoff runs.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2014, 11:29:43 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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They still would've had to do something with 'Toine. 

Toine/Pierce/JJ wasn't going to be able to co-exist without the detriment to Joe Johnson.  He looked like a deer in headlights oftentimes that season.  I'm sure part of it was being a rookie but he just did not seem to play with a ton of confidence and I think it was due in large part to the dominating personalities of Antoine and the up & coming Pierce. 

I've mentioned it before on here but I still don't really have a problem with that trade. In hindsight, it certainly doesn't look the greatest but, at the time, this was an organization that was hurting.  Bottom rung in Boston sports and still getting over the Pitino debacle.   That trade helped lead to a magical playoff run that helped put the Celtics back on the radar in the city of Boston.   Those '02 playoffs were a special time for a bunch of fans who were just children during Bird's heyday but mostly who grew up with the turbulent times of the post Bird days and the absolute dumpster fire that was Pitino.
are you talking the JJ trade or the Toine trade to Dallas?  JJ trade was fine with the exception that it was JJ instead of Kedrick sent out.  The Toine trade was after those playoff runs.

Talking about the Joe Johnson trade during the '01-02 season which helped lead to the playoff run at the end of that season.


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Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2014, 11:38:32 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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We should have had Billups, Johnson, and Pierce as our 1, 2, 3 for a decade.  The team was managed so badly back then.

Re: Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce - the duo that never was
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2014, 06:21:57 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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2 things.

1. KG came here because of Ray.
2. he even more clutch than Allen - I find this offensive. I'm not remembering any spectacular shot by Joe, that beats Ray heroics. He never faced the pressure as big as Ray. Joe J. is an underachiver with the passion of last years Jeff Green. He's the most overpaid player in the league in the last 5 years.

With his size, yes, I agree that Joe should get to the line like Pierce has throughout his career, but comparing him to Jeff Green is uncalled for lol ;D and totally off base, imo.  I also have a particular stat concerning clutch players in addition to numerous clips of Johnson coming up huge in the biggest postseason moments, often on the road (which is even more difficult to do, imo), that might interest you - when the Nets with KG and Pierce were assembled, a lot of people assumed that they would be the go-to-guys, but Jason Kidd (yeah, I know - who would have thought he would do something intelligent as a coach lol ;D) pointed out that

Quote
“If you’re into analytics, you look at Joe Johnson as the clear cut as the guy taking the last-second shot."  “He was 9-for-10 with 24 seconds or less. So that would be your guy who is the closer.

“But the game of basketball is such that you draw up a play for one player, most of the time it doesn’t end up with that one guy taking the shot. He creates a problem, which results to one of teammates getting a wide-open look. Make-or-miss, it’s the right basketball play. For us, it’s about making the right basketball play at the end. But if you’re looking at stats, which a lot of you people do, Joe Johnson’s name comes first. … He’s a guy who delivers. He loves that stage at the end of having the ball and making the right play.


http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229980/Kidd-Expects-Nets-To-Go-To-Joe-Johnson-In-Final-Shot-Situations

Now, in addition to all of his clutch shots during the 2013-14 regular season, Johnson pretty much single-handedly won game 7 for the Nets in Toronto, scoring 13 of his 26 in the 4th quarter, including 11 in a row at one point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hpBRIx-iRg

What about his two game-tying shots in game 4 against the Bulls in 2013, in a series in which he was hobbled?  When was the last time any guy hit 2 game-tying shots in one game, let alone a playoff game, and against the best defense in the league in Chicago?  Incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEXsdyzzQFo

Finally, who could forget his performance against us in game 4 in 2008?  We had the league's best defense and a 10 point lead to start the 4th quarter, but Joe owned everyone, Ray Allen in particular, scoring 20 of his 32 points in the final period to tie the series.  Maybe it's me, but he seems to be the one guy who has consistently torched Thibs' defense.  No one thought that the Hawks would even win a game against Chicago in 2011, especially because they were swept by the Bulls in the regular season that year, but Joe scored 34 points, including 10 in the 4th quarter, as Atlanta took game one at the United Center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhGeQWOHwHQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puBcHqdfm7c