Author Topic: NBA Season 2014-2015  (Read 346171 times)

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Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1410 on: March 05, 2015, 04:54:26 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Watched Bucks-Warriors last night.  I don't know if it'll work - it was limited last night - but I can see what Kidd is going for with MCW and Greek Freak together.  That's one long, athletic perimeter.  Pair them with a knockdown shooter or two and a good interior defense and they could be pretty intimidating.

I was encouraged by that Bucks performance myself. The trade could work out for them long term, and I guess in the scheme of things this year doesn't matter for them.

I'm certainly in the minority, but I think Ennis vs MCW is a real thing we might see play out.

They both played for the same College a year apart.

2012 MCW Freshman - 2.7 points, 2.1 assists, 1.5 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 0.6 Turnovers  43%/39%/56% 10.3mpg
2013 MCW Sophomore - 11.9 points, 7.3 assists, 5 rebounds, 2.7 steals, 3.5 turnovers 39%/29%/69% 35.2mpg

2014 Ennis Freshman - 12.9 points, 5.5 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 2.1 steals, 1.7 turnovers 41%/35%/77% 35.7mpg

Anyone else find that interesting?  MCW is 23 years old.   Ennis is 20.   MCW gets taken #11 in "historically bad" draft.   Ennis gets taken 18th in a "historically great" draft. 

Clearly, MCW got the keys to the kingdom on a D-league worthy Philly roster.  Given 34.5 mpg and a starting role right out the gate.  It was clear to a lot of people that he was overrated and wouldn't put up those kind of stats on a good team.

Meanwhile, Ennis joins a team where he's buried behind Dragic, Bledsoe and Isaiah Thomas.  Playing a total of 128 minutes during his entire tenure on the Suns.  He did, however, play in the D-League where he put up solid stats (18.4 points, 5.3 assists, 4.3 rebounds, 1.8 steals on 48%/33%/81%)

Am I crazy, or is it possible that Ennis can threaten MCW for the starting role at some point?   

At the very least, MCW should be looking over his shoulder.  This is a great example of the value of roles.   If Ennis had joined Philly, would he have gotten 35mpg out of the gate?   If MCW had joined the Suns, would he have spent most of his time in the d-league behind Bledsoe/Dragic/Thomas?  I'm curious to see what happens there.

I'm almost absolutely positive Ennis was picked up as MCW insurance.  I think Kidd is hoping to turn MCW into a productive point guard; failing that, Ennis seems like a failsafe option they can use if they move from on MCW.  It won't hurt that Ennis will at least have experience in the Bucks' system and with their core players if that time ever comes, either.

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1411 on: March 05, 2015, 05:01:07 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I watched Ennis last night, so no.  He looked lost and overwhelmed.  Maybe he'll put it together, though, he was pretty unflappable in college.

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1412 on: March 05, 2015, 05:25:59 PM »

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Watched Bucks-Warriors last night.  I don't know if it'll work - it was limited last night - but I can see what Kidd is going for with MCW and Greek Freak together.  That's one long, athletic perimeter.  Pair them with a knockdown shooter or two and a good interior defense and they could be pretty intimidating.
I have been amazed at how much they have been able to accomplish defensively.

2nd in defensive efficiency now.

This despite Larry Sanders only playing about 22mpg and playing less than half their games when he left the team. Zaza is no great shakes defensively. Nor is Henson. The PF position is been just a problematic. Jabari Parker was a weak defender. Ilyasova has been a bad man-to-man defender his entire career but a solid team defender. Jared Dudley playing out of position as PF. Or that Jonny O'Bryant guy.

It's amazing that they have accomplished so much on the defensive end of the floor without a true defensive anchor (once Sanders left) and while also having defensive problems at PF.

Almost all their defensive value is coming from the perimeter spots and their scrambling team defense. Using their quickness and length. A terrific defensive scheme revolving around a lot of zoning on strong side of the floor and trusting their long quick defensive guards / forwards to be able to recover in time when the ball switches sides. Also use their length to force a league leading 15.7% turnovers.

It's not like perimeter rotation is full of defensive talent either. They are playing guys like Bayless and OJ Mayo. Dudley is a good defender but a slow one (on perimeter) or badly undersized (at PF). It is incredible what Jason Kidd has managed to build defensively given the personnel he has at his disposal.

Giannis is the real star of their defense. His length and mobility on team defense is a nightmare for opposing teams. Middleton has been very good for Milwaukee as well. Brandon Knight was a very strong defensive PG but I think MCW has even more defensive upside than Knight had and is a perfect fit for Milwaukee's defensive system.

Jason Kidd deserves a huge amount of credit.

All of this. I would a million times over take what Milwaukee is trying to do over what the 76ers were. They are adding Parker, who was looking quite good, to a team that already has very very nice pieces. I think MCW is going to do a lot better there with actual NBA veterans telling him what he can and can't do and a coach that is not afraid to yank him for bad play. Kind of the polar opposite of philly.
Brett Brown is a good coach not some weak shrinking violet.  At the start of the 2nd half of one of our games with the Sixers, Sully beat their bigs down the court on two successive fast breaks.  With less than a minute gone, Brown called a timeout and chewed out Noel and the other big for letting it happen.  The Sixers are tanking so there is little reason to yank young players for bad play.  They aren't going to get better sitting on the bench.   

The Bucks are 1-4 since the MCW trade.  Maybe Kidd can eventually develop MCW into an efficient player but in the short term they've taken a step back.  The Bucks have better existing talent but the Sixers have better draft picks and cap space.  Their situations are different but I don't think either is significantly better than the other.  The T-wolves may actually be in the best shape except for them being in the West.

I 100% agree on Minnesota. They have the brightest group of young talent between Wiggins, Dieng and Lavine (Lavine actually looks like a player since all-star break). Throw in Rubio, Pek, Martin and a top 5 pick and they really have something. The cavs totally jump started the t-wolves rebuild with a massive overpay for Love.

As for Philly/Bucks that wasn't meant to be a dig on Brown. I also think he is a good coach, could possibly turn out to be a great coach. I more was referencing the situation you mentioned where Kidd has the ability to put in a Bayless, Mayo or other veteran if MCW is making boneheaded plays.

I do totally disagree with you about there not being a benefit to yanking a young player after bad plays. A coach can chew out a young player all he wants for a bad play, but if he gets to play 38 minutes no matter how many bad plays he makes he is probably not going to change (and will eventually tune out the chew outs). Now if a player makes a boneheaded plays and goes and sits on the bench for a half hour maybe he thinks a bit more about the play.
There are certainly occasions where benching a player could be effective and necessary.  I'd make a distinction between bad plays and bonehead plays.  Most of the time I think it is better to let players play through their mistakes.  MCW actually was actually pretty productive overall but was very inefficient.  Brown didn't have much success correcting MCW's issues but maybe Kidd can.  Trading MCW for the Lakers 1st was a no brainer with all the talented PGs around.  On the other hand, Noel has improved a lot from the beginning of the season and looks like a keeper or at least a good trade asset.

I like coaches playing young players through their mistakes / errors / missed shots.

What I do not like is coaches playing young players when they are not giving effort or playing without focus. Commitment is an absolute.

Mistakes I can live with. I think that is how you learn. By trying things and often by failing. By learning how to fix your mistakes / weaknesses and by learning what you can and cannot do at this level.

I do not watch the Sixers often but when I do watch them, I see good things happening. I think the coaching staff there is doing a good job. I really respect the defensive effort they are getting out of those guys and commitment to moving the ball and playing together as a team on offense. There is a framework for success that is being developed and instilled in the players.

Someone mentioned a SVG quote criticizing the Wizards a few years ago with that dreadful JaVale McGee, Andray Blatche, Nick Young team. Those guys did not play with effort + focus. They were not being held accountable or developed in a good manner. Those guys did not play as a team. They did not play with required levels with effort on defense. They were all out for themselves. Selfishness and immaturity were constants around that group. It was a toxic environment that made it increasingly difficult to develop their young talent.

Also, I think having a guy like Nerlens Noel is great for a young team. A young player who defines himself with his defense + rebounding. A tough competitor. Someone who helps his teammates. Someone who embodies the type of team identity you want to create (like Joakim Noah does in Chicago).

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1413 on: March 05, 2015, 05:45:30 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Watched Bucks-Warriors last night.  I don't know if it'll work - it was limited last night - but I can see what Kidd is going for with MCW and Greek Freak together.  That's one long, athletic perimeter.  Pair them with a knockdown shooter or two and a good interior defense and they could be pretty intimidating.
I have been amazed at how much they have been able to accomplish defensively.

2nd in defensive efficiency now.

This despite Larry Sanders only playing about 22mpg and playing less than half their games when he left the team. Zaza is no great shakes defensively. Nor is Henson. The PF position is been just a problematic. Jabari Parker was a weak defender. Ilyasova has been a bad man-to-man defender his entire career but a solid team defender. Jared Dudley playing out of position as PF. Or that Jonny O'Bryant guy.

It's amazing that they have accomplished so much on the defensive end of the floor without a true defensive anchor (once Sanders left) and while also having defensive problems at PF.

Almost all their defensive value is coming from the perimeter spots and their scrambling team defense. Using their quickness and length. A terrific defensive scheme revolving around a lot of zoning on strong side of the floor and trusting their long quick defensive guards / forwards to be able to recover in time when the ball switches sides. Also use their length to force a league leading 15.7% turnovers.

It's not like perimeter rotation is full of defensive talent either. They are playing guys like Bayless and OJ Mayo. Dudley is a good defender but a slow one (on perimeter) or badly undersized (at PF). It is incredible what Jason Kidd has managed to build defensively given the personnel he has at his disposal.

Giannis is the real star of their defense. His length and mobility on team defense is a nightmare for opposing teams. Middleton has been very good for Milwaukee as well. Brandon Knight was a very strong defensive PG but I think MCW has even more defensive upside than Knight had and is a perfect fit for Milwaukee's defensive system.

Jason Kidd deserves a huge amount of credit.

All of this. I would a million times over take what Milwaukee is trying to do over what the 76ers were. They are adding Parker, who was looking quite good, to a team that already has very very nice pieces. I think MCW is going to do a lot better there with actual NBA veterans telling him what he can and can't do and a coach that is not afraid to yank him for bad play. Kind of the polar opposite of philly.
Brett Brown is a good coach not some weak shrinking violet.  At the start of the 2nd half of one of our games with the Sixers, Sully beat their bigs down the court on two successive fast breaks.  With less than a minute gone, Brown called a timeout and chewed out Noel and the other big for letting it happen.  The Sixers are tanking so there is little reason to yank young players for bad play.  They aren't going to get better sitting on the bench.   

The Bucks are 1-4 since the MCW trade.  Maybe Kidd can eventually develop MCW into an efficient player but in the short term they've taken a step back.  The Bucks have better existing talent but the Sixers have better draft picks and cap space.  Their situations are different but I don't think either is significantly better than the other.  The T-wolves may actually be in the best shape except for them being in the West.

I 100% agree on Minnesota. They have the brightest group of young talent between Wiggins, Dieng and Lavine (Lavine actually looks like a player since all-star break). Throw in Rubio, Pek, Martin and a top 5 pick and they really have something. The cavs totally jump started the t-wolves rebuild with a massive overpay for Love.

As for Philly/Bucks that wasn't meant to be a dig on Brown. I also think he is a good coach, could possibly turn out to be a great coach. I more was referencing the situation you mentioned where Kidd has the ability to put in a Bayless, Mayo or other veteran if MCW is making boneheaded plays.

I do totally disagree with you about there not being a benefit to yanking a young player after bad plays. A coach can chew out a young player all he wants for a bad play, but if he gets to play 38 minutes no matter how many bad plays he makes he is probably not going to change (and will eventually tune out the chew outs). Now if a player makes a boneheaded plays and goes and sits on the bench for a half hour maybe he thinks a bit more about the play.
There are certainly occasions where benching a player could be effective and necessary.  I'd make a distinction between bad plays and bonehead plays.  Most of the time I think it is better to let players play through their mistakes.  MCW actually was actually pretty productive overall but was very inefficient.  Brown didn't have much success correcting MCW's issues but maybe Kidd can.  Trading MCW for the Lakers 1st was a no brainer with all the talented PGs around.  On the other hand, Noel has improved a lot from the beginning of the season and looks like a keeper or at least a good trade asset.

I like coaches playing young players through their mistakes / errors / missed shots.

What I do not like is coaches playing young players when they are not giving effort or playing without focus. Commitment is an absolute.

Mistakes I can live with. I think that is how you learn. By trying things and often by failing. By learning how to fix your mistakes / weaknesses and by learning what you can and cannot do at this level.

I do not watch the Sixers often but when I do watch them, I see good things happening. I think the coaching staff there is doing a good job. I really respect the defensive effort they are getting out of those guys and commitment to moving the ball and playing together as a team on offense. There is a framework for success that is being developed and instilled in the players.

Someone mentioned a SVG quote criticizing the Wizards a few years ago with that dreadful JaVale McGee, Andray Blatche, Nick Young team. Those guys did not play with effort + focus. They were not being held accountable or developed in a good manner. Those guys did not play as a team. They did not play with required levels with effort on defense. They were all out for themselves. Selfishness and immaturity were constants around that group. It was a toxic environment that made it increasingly difficult to develop their young talent.

Also, I think having a guy like Nerlens Noel is great for a young team. A young player who defines himself with his defense + rebounding. A tough competitor. Someone who helps his teammates. Someone who embodies the type of team identity you want to create (like Joakim Noah does in Chicago).
Here's a quote from a good article on Brown.  "We have an effort chart. So as long as you're playing hard, you're going to be on the court. It's become our style. And everybody buys in."
 
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/A_coachs_son.html

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1414 on: March 05, 2015, 05:48:10 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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In other words, we don't give a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. if you don't help us win because none of you are going to be on the team when it's actually time to compete.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1415 on: March 05, 2015, 05:48:25 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Watched Bucks-Warriors last night.  I don't know if it'll work - it was limited last night - but I can see what Kidd is going for with MCW and Greek Freak together.  That's one long, athletic perimeter.  Pair them with a knockdown shooter or two and a good interior defense and they could be pretty intimidating.
I have been amazed at how much they have been able to accomplish defensively.

2nd in defensive efficiency now.

This despite Larry Sanders only playing about 22mpg and playing less than half their games when he left the team. Zaza is no great shakes defensively. Nor is Henson. The PF position is been just a problematic. Jabari Parker was a weak defender. Ilyasova has been a bad man-to-man defender his entire career but a solid team defender. Jared Dudley playing out of position as PF. Or that Jonny O'Bryant guy.

It's amazing that they have accomplished so much on the defensive end of the floor without a true defensive anchor (once Sanders left) and while also having defensive problems at PF.

Almost all their defensive value is coming from the perimeter spots and their scrambling team defense. Using their quickness and length. A terrific defensive scheme revolving around a lot of zoning on strong side of the floor and trusting their long quick defensive guards / forwards to be able to recover in time when the ball switches sides. Also use their length to force a league leading 15.7% turnovers.

It's not like perimeter rotation is full of defensive talent either. They are playing guys like Bayless and OJ Mayo. Dudley is a good defender but a slow one (on perimeter) or badly undersized (at PF). It is incredible what Jason Kidd has managed to build defensively given the personnel he has at his disposal.

Giannis is the real star of their defense. His length and mobility on team defense is a nightmare for opposing teams. Middleton has been very good for Milwaukee as well. Brandon Knight was a very strong defensive PG but I think MCW has even more defensive upside than Knight had and is a perfect fit for Milwaukee's defensive system.

Jason Kidd deserves a huge amount of credit.

All of this. I would a million times over take what Milwaukee is trying to do over what the 76ers were. They are adding Parker, who was looking quite good, to a team that already has very very nice pieces. I think MCW is going to do a lot better there with actual NBA veterans telling him what he can and can't do and a coach that is not afraid to yank him for bad play. Kind of the polar opposite of philly.
Brett Brown is a good coach not some weak shrinking violet.  At the start of the 2nd half of one of our games with the Sixers, Sully beat their bigs down the court on two successive fast breaks.  With less than a minute gone, Brown called a timeout and chewed out Noel and the other big for letting it happen.  The Sixers are tanking so there is little reason to yank young players for bad play.  They aren't going to get better sitting on the bench.   

The Bucks are 1-4 since the MCW trade.  Maybe Kidd can eventually develop MCW into an efficient player but in the short term they've taken a step back.  The Bucks have better existing talent but the Sixers have better draft picks and cap space.  Their situations are different but I don't think either is significantly better than the other.  The T-wolves may actually be in the best shape except for them being in the West.

I 100% agree on Minnesota. They have the brightest group of young talent between Wiggins, Dieng and Lavine (Lavine actually looks like a player since all-star break). Throw in Rubio, Pek, Martin and a top 5 pick and they really have something. The cavs totally jump started the t-wolves rebuild with a massive overpay for Love.

As for Philly/Bucks that wasn't meant to be a dig on Brown. I also think he is a good coach, could possibly turn out to be a great coach. I more was referencing the situation you mentioned where Kidd has the ability to put in a Bayless, Mayo or other veteran if MCW is making boneheaded plays.

I do totally disagree with you about there not being a benefit to yanking a young player after bad plays. A coach can chew out a young player all he wants for a bad play, but if he gets to play 38 minutes no matter how many bad plays he makes he is probably not going to change (and will eventually tune out the chew outs). Now if a player makes a boneheaded plays and goes and sits on the bench for a half hour maybe he thinks a bit more about the play.
There are certainly occasions where benching a player could be effective and necessary.  I'd make a distinction between bad plays and bonehead plays.  Most of the time I think it is better to let players play through their mistakes.  MCW actually was actually pretty productive overall but was very inefficient.  Brown didn't have much success correcting MCW's issues but maybe Kidd can.  Trading MCW for the Lakers 1st was a no brainer with all the talented PGs around.  On the other hand, Noel has improved a lot from the beginning of the season and looks like a keeper or at least a good trade asset.

I like coaches playing young players through their mistakes / errors / missed shots.

What I do not like is coaches playing young players when they are not giving effort or playing without focus. Commitment is an absolute.

Mistakes I can live with. I think that is how you learn. By trying things and often by failing. By learning how to fix your mistakes / weaknesses and by learning what you can and cannot do at this level.

I do not watch the Sixers often but when I do watch them, I see good things happening. I think the coaching staff there is doing a good job. I really respect the defensive effort they are getting out of those guys and commitment to moving the ball and playing together as a team on offense. There is a framework for success that is being developed and instilled in the players.

Someone mentioned a SVG quote criticizing the Wizards a few years ago with that dreadful JaVale McGee, Andray Blatche, Nick Young team. Those guys did not play with effort + focus. They were not being held accountable or developed in a good manner. Those guys did not play as a team. They did not play with required levels with effort on defense. They were all out for themselves. Selfishness and immaturity were constants around that group. It was a toxic environment that made it increasingly difficult to develop their young talent.

Also, I think having a guy like Nerlens Noel is great for a young team. A young player who defines himself with his defense + rebounding. A tough competitor. Someone who helps his teammates. Someone who embodies the type of team identity you want to create (like Joakim Noah does in Chicago).

There is a big gap in what this statement can mean. If a guy makes a good move and gets a good look off a screen and misses it, I don't think any coach is really going to bench him for that. Even if it happens 5 or 6 times in a row. However, if a guy does a pull up jumper with 22 seconds left on the shot clock or drives 1 on 3, and the coach yells at him, and he does it again, that player needs to come out of the game. I am not going to pretend I watch tons of Philadelphia basketball, but I do watch some just for/from playing daily fantasy leagues on occasion.

 I will say in the past I have scene MCW have sequences where he comes down takes bad shot, forces pass on next possession and then does something terrible a few plays later. He would still just keep playing.  I really find it hard to see value in that happening. Again I am not blaming Brown, in a lot of cases they did not have any other pg on the roster that could play minutes. Prior to the deadline they were starting our castoff Tim Frazier when MCW was hurt and playing him 30 minutes.

However, I think the most ardent Philadelphia supporters feel anything slightly negative about something happening on that teams is an attack on them. I didn't really think it was a point of contention that Philly could have handled MCW and his development a little bit better, but I guess I was wrong.

 

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1416 on: March 05, 2015, 05:50:14 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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In other words, we don't give a **** if you don't help us win because none of you are going to be on the team when it's actually time to compete.

tp for DOS

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1417 on: March 05, 2015, 05:57:45 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Hahahaha thanks. one for you as well.

I should say, though, that Brett Brown is a nice guy who I wish good things upon, and probably doesn't deserve my derision.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1418 on: March 05, 2015, 06:39:58 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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In other words, we don't give a **** if you don't help us win because none of you are going to be on the team when it's actually time to compete.
Not even close.  Player development is a key component of the Sixers plan regardless of whether the player stays in Philly or just ends up as a better trade asset.  The Sixers players know that if they give the effort that they'll get playing time.  Playing time means an opportunity to prove themselves.  That's all a young player trying to make it in the league can ask for. 

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1419 on: March 05, 2015, 07:48:45 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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In other words, we don't give a **** if you don't help us win because none of you are going to be on the team when it's actually time to compete.
Not even close.  Player development is a key component of the Sixers plan regardless of whether the player stays in Philly or just ends up as a better trade asset.  The Sixers players know that if they give the effort that they'll get playing time.  Playing time means an opportunity to prove themselves.  That's all a young player trying to make it in the league can ask for.

are you here as a Philly fan? It's cool if you are, but if you are a Celtics fan this is a getting a little weird.

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1420 on: March 05, 2015, 08:00:14 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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In other words, we don't give a **** if you don't help us win because none of you are going to be on the team when it's actually time to compete.
Not even close.  Player development is a key component of the Sixers plan regardless of whether the player stays in Philly or just ends up as a better trade asset. 

Then they should go back to the drawing board.

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1421 on: March 05, 2015, 10:29:01 PM »

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Dion Waiters' selfishness is really frustrating. I wonder if OKC is better off benching him in favour of Anthony Morrow once Durant comes back.

That is a killer blow. Kanter offensive rebound and putback off a missed free throw. Pau Gasol has got to do better there. Cannot allow offensive rebounds off of FTs.

Oh, E'Twaun Moore with the game winner! Three pointer out of the corner. 19 points for Moore.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:39:47 PM by Who »

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1422 on: March 05, 2015, 10:39:15 PM »

Offline timobusa

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Our old pal Etwaun Moore hitting the big shot!!!

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1423 on: March 06, 2015, 12:11:05 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Rondo play n great

Re: NBA Season 2014-2015
« Reply #1424 on: March 06, 2015, 12:36:02 AM »

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G: Rondo
G: Barea
G: Monta
F: Dirk
C: Amare

That is a tiny lineup out on the perimeter. Rondo, Barea and Monta at SF? Yikes.

And then they put two seriously deficient defenders / rebounders in Dirk and Amare alongside them? Come on! How you have any reasonable expectation of being able to defend and rebound as a team effectively with a lineup like this!?