Author Topic: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining  (Read 7277 times)

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Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2014, 09:45:27 PM »

Offline chambers

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If I'm DRose, I'm taking lots of shots because I'm the #1 option. Kyrie is option #3 and should not be hogging it, I fully expect it to take him some time to adjust though.

Kyrie is the best scoring PG in the NBA. He should not be giving up shot attempts.

I still think it's LeBron that should be the one that gives up some of his scoring in order to allow his teammates to prosper. LeBron is the only one of the three who can dominate a game without scoring. He is playing with the best scoring PG in the league + 2nd best offensive PF in the league. LeBron should adapt his game to them rather than them adapting their weaker less well-rounded games to him. LeBron has the talent to do so and still be thoroughly dominant. The other two do not.

Love was wide open. You got to make the extra pass. But i guess Love also didnt have to freak out.

That's probably technically correct.

But, if you're on fire, is it the proper decision to pass to a guy who is ice cold, even if he is more open?

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question.  Look at the criticism Lebron got for deferring to his teammates rather than taking over down the stretch previously.  I think there's something to be said for having the mindset to want to take over games.

Again, Kyrie has still been averaging 5.0 assists per game, playing next to Lebron.  He also had an amazing pre-season, following winning MVP of the FIBA world championships.

I just think it's holding Kyrie to an impossible standard.  I mean, didn't his team win that game?  The Cavs were a +16 with Kyrie in the game versus the Bulls.  He had 7 assists, along with 28 points.

It doesn't make sense to me to take a game that the Cavs won, where Kyrie out-assisted Rose by 7 to 3, and say that the Bulls look great and that Kyrie is holding the team back by being a ball hog, you know?

It's a matter of opinion and even comes down to the coaches priority- although I'd say Blatt would be telling him to make that pass in practice...point being that getting him a wide open shot and get his game going should be the priority.

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Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2014, 10:15:05 PM »

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Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2014, 11:02:08 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If I'm DRose, I'm taking lots of shots because I'm the #1 option. Kyrie is option #3 and should not be hogging it, I fully expect it to take him some time to adjust though.

Kyrie is the best scoring PG in the NBA. He should not be giving up shot attempts.

I still think it's LeBron that should be the one that gives up some of his scoring in order to allow his teammates to prosper. LeBron is the only one of the three who can dominate a game without scoring. He is playing with the best scoring PG in the league + 2nd best offensive PF in the league. LeBron should adapt his game to them rather than them adapting their weaker less well-rounded games to him. LeBron has the talent to do so and still be thoroughly dominant. The other two do not.

Love was wide open. You got to make the extra pass. But i guess Love also didnt have to freak out.

That's probably technically correct.

But, if you're on fire, is it the proper decision to pass to a guy who is ice cold, even if he is more open?

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question.  Look at the criticism Lebron got for deferring to his teammates rather than taking over down the stretch previously.  I think there's something to be said for having the mindset to want to take over games.

Again, Kyrie has still been averaging 5.0 assists per game, playing next to Lebron.  He also had an amazing pre-season, following winning MVP of the FIBA world championships.

I just think it's holding Kyrie to an impossible standard.  I mean, didn't his team win that game?  The Cavs were a +16 with Kyrie in the game versus the Bulls.  He had 7 assists, along with 28 points.

It doesn't make sense to me to take a game that the Cavs won, where Kyrie out-assisted Rose by 7 to 3, and say that the Bulls look great and that Kyrie is holding the team back by being a ball hog, you know?

It's a matter of opinion and even comes down to the coaches priority- although I'd say Blatt would be telling him to make that pass in practice...point being that getting him a wide open shot and get his game going should be the priority.

Is that a rhetorical question?  Yes, you should always pass to the open man, no matter how many shots you've made in a row.  Furthermore, the more shots the guy has made, the more the defense will key in on him, making open shots even easier for his teammates, which means that it'll be much easier to get the other guys going.  That's just my take, though.  The bad boys did the whole ride the hot hand thing because they had some streaky offensive players, like the microwave, buddha, and even Aguirre, and now everyone copies that strategy.  Personally, I prefer exploiting a mismatch or someone's foul trouble to taking a contested jumper, but again, that's just me. 

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2014, 11:03:35 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If I'm DRose, I'm taking lots of shots because I'm the #1 option. Kyrie is option #3 and should not be hogging it, I fully expect it to take him some time to adjust though.

Kyrie is the best scoring PG in the NBA. He should not be giving up shot attempts.

I still think it's LeBron that should be the one that gives up some of his scoring in order to allow his teammates to prosper. LeBron is the only one of the three who can dominate a game without scoring. He is playing with the best scoring PG in the league + 2nd best offensive PF in the league. LeBron should adapt his game to them rather than them adapting their weaker less well-rounded games to him. LeBron has the talent to do so and still be thoroughly dominant. The other two do not.

Love was wide open. You got to make the extra pass. But i guess Love also didnt have to freak out.

That's probably technically correct.

But, if you're on fire, is it the proper decision to pass to a guy who is ice cold, even if he is more open?

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question.  Look at the criticism Lebron got for deferring to his teammates rather than taking over down the stretch previously.  I think there's something to be said for having the mindset to want to take over games.

Again, Kyrie has still been averaging 5.0 assists per game, playing next to Lebron.  He also had an amazing pre-season, following winning MVP of the FIBA world championships.

I just think it's holding Kyrie to an impossible standard.  I mean, didn't his team win that game?  The Cavs were a +16 with Kyrie in the game versus the Bulls.  He had 7 assists, along with 28 points.

It doesn't make sense to me to take a game that the Cavs won, where Kyrie out-assisted Rose by 7 to 3, and say that the Bulls look great and that Kyrie is holding the team back by being a ball hog, you know?

Making the extra pass imo is the way to go.  Yes Irving was on fire. But what if in another game he is not?  Will he make the extra pass then? or needs to be guy who has to break out of a slump?    Maybe in that situation he will pass, but imo its not a given he will. He prob doesn't even know in that situation if he will . It's a habit you have to work at.   It's something the big three got used to real quick and thats why we were a strong team. 

Also something to ponder about: Irving has been playing like this (fire or not) since being drafted.  It has not taken the cavs anywhere except for him being reconized a decent player in this league.

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2014, 11:10:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If I'm DRose, I'm taking lots of shots because I'm the #1 option. Kyrie is option #3 and should not be hogging it, I fully expect it to take him some time to adjust though.

Kyrie is the best scoring PG in the NBA. He should not be giving up shot attempts.


  I'd go with, for starters, Curry and CP above Kyrie as the best scoring pg in the nba.

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2014, 11:12:41 PM »

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Quote
Also something to ponder about: Irving has been playing like this (fire or not) since being drafted.  It has not taken the cavs anywhere except for him being reconized a decent player in this league.

The reason for the Cavs lack of success is two-fold:  untalented, poorly constructed rosters; and Mike Brown.

I love Kyrie's willingness to take over games, especially late.  In his three year career, he's led the league in "clutch" scoring twice, and was second once. 


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Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2014, 11:27:07 PM »

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Kyrie is the best scoring PG in the NBA. He should not be giving up shot attempts.

  I'd go with, for starters, Curry and CP above Kyrie as the best scoring pg in the nba.

I rate Kyrie above both players as a scorer. I think his combination of explosive quickness, tricky handles and shooting ability makes him the toughest one to stop.

I definitely rate CP3 over Kyrie as overall offensive player due to how well CP3 runs a team and CP3's playmaking ability. I probably take Steph Curry over Kyrie as well (overall offense). But purely as a scorer, I take Kyrie over either one of them.

I think Kyrie's explosive quickness and tricky ball-handling better allows him to break his man off the dribble than either player. Ability to get into the paint and create shots at the rim off the dribble penetration. A small advantage of CP3 but a large one over Steph Curry. I think CP3 is more reliant on PnR and is less capable one-on-one vs Kyrie. Steph has an advantage coming off screens but I take Kyrie's dribble drive threat over that. Kyrie is harder to stick bigger defenders on due to combination of explosive shooting from perimeter + quickness / handles off the dribble.

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2014, 11:35:12 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5XUwlP29DA

- Watch 3:47 and Love's reaction to the jump shot taken by Irving, when he was wide open.  He has been complaining he hasn't been getting enough touches on the inside also.   Not looking like a smooth start for the Cavs so far.  Man Irving can be a hog

- Derrick Rose is back.  He is bulkier , looks stronger and smarter in changing up his speed. Still explosive. His jump shot is looking good.  Bulls will be a tough team to play against if Drose can stay healthy. 

Both of these teams are considered favorites to win the East this year.  So far so good for the Bulls, but not so great for the Cavs.

A few observations from that clip -

1).  No matter how great Rose might look now, the commentator's call of his transition layup at the 1:54 mark perfectly sums up his career, imo, "Here comes Rose - 1 on 3.  He doesn't care," lol ;D.  The guy is not a point guard and is easily one of the most selfish players in the NBA, which is why Chicago hasn't been able to get over the hump.  What happens this year when Cleveland opts to put Lebron on him?  Will he continue to go 1 on 4 as he did repeatedly against the Heat?  If he does, the Bulls aren't going anywhere.  Rose isn't even the best passer on his own team.  That distinction belongs to Pau and Noah.  The potential board work and playmaking ability of those two guys concerns me more than how many points Rose scores.

2).  I really like Dion Waiters.  He can pass, has a great handle and jump shot, and looks awfully good (now there's an oxymoron) in the clips I've seen of the Cavs.  I don't understand why Cleveland would want to move him.  At this point, is he better than Wade for Lebron?  I say yes, if only because he'll play the entire season and can actually shoot lol ;D.

3).  When did Varejao get a skyhook?

4).  Lebron definitely has a lot more room to operate playing with Irving, Waiters, and Love than he ever did with Wade and Bosh.  Hell, even Varejao looks competent offensively lol ;D.  What took him so long ;D?

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2014, 03:07:05 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If he manages 5 assists a game on a team with LBJ and KL, he'll be on the bench soon enough, because both LBJ and KL will demand it.

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2014, 07:58:26 AM »

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If he manages 5 assists a game on a team with LBJ and KL, he'll be on the bench soon enough, because both LBJ and KL will demand it.
Lebron is going to have the ball in his hands a lot of the time, so it's expected that Irving's assists go down.  He may not average much more than 6 assists or so, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Regardless of positional labels, Lebron is much more of a playmaker than Irving.  And Irving is an amazing shooter/scorer.

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2014, 08:46:40 AM »

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If he manages 5 assists a game on a team with LBJ and KL, he'll be on the bench soon enough, because both LBJ and KL will demand it.
Lebron is going to have the ball in his hands a lot of the time, so it's expected that Irving's assists go down.  He may not average much more than 6 assists or so, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Regardless of positional labels, Lebron is much more of a playmaker than Irving.  And Irving is an amazing shooter/scorer.

Yes, and Love and Varejao (and even Waiters) are decent passers in their own right.  The Cavs will move the ball and will have a lot of assists as a team, but it wouldn't be a good thing if most of those assists were bunched with one player.  Also, as you note, it will be Lebron who is the primary ball-handler / playmaker; when you have the best player in the world, you give him the ball and let him figure out what to do with it.

Look at the Spurs:  Tony Parker averaged 5.7 assists per game last year.  That didn't exactly hold them back.


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Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2014, 09:32:46 AM »

Offline MBunge

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If he manages 5 assists a game on a team with LBJ and KL, he'll be on the bench soon enough, because both LBJ and KL will demand it.
Lebron is going to have the ball in his hands a lot of the time, so it's expected that Irving's assists go down.  He may not average much more than 6 assists or so, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Regardless of positional labels, Lebron is much more of a playmaker than Irving.  And Irving is an amazing shooter/scorer.

Irving averaged 6.1 assists a game last year, up only about .7 assists a game since he came into the league.  True, his teammates have been pretty bad up to now but Irving is a scoring point guard and hasn't shown elite playmaking up to now.  At least not compared to other great pgs at similar points in their careers.

Mike

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2014, 12:50:27 PM »

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Skinny LeBron....

Well justs looks funny. To me  anyway..;D

Re: Derrick Rose looking strong. Kevin Love already complaining
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2014, 02:14:16 PM »

Offline mgent

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Rose is averaging 12 FGAs and fewer than 3 assists per game this pre-season.  If you're going to knock Irving for being a ball hog, I think you have to look at Rose with more scrutiny than you are.

It's hard to knock Kyrie this pre-season.  He's averaged 20.8 points (third in the NBA this preseason), on 55% shooting and 41% 3PT%.  He's averaging 5.0 assists, which isn't amazing, but it's a heck of a lot better than Rose has shown.

If I'm DRose, I'm taking lots of shots because I'm the #1 option. Kyrie is option #3 and should not be hogging it, I fully expect it to take him some time to adjust though.

Kyrie is the best scoring PG in the NBA. He should not be giving up shot attempts.


  I'd go with, for starters, Curry and CP above Kyrie as the best scoring pg in the nba.

Curry, yes, Paul, I'm not sure.  CP has about 1/5th of the attention on him that Kyrie has had on those Cavalier teams, he's just had so much more talent around him.  Half of the shots I see him take in Clipper games are wide open because his defender had to help.  I would withhold my judgement until we see how Kyrie looks with Love and James.  Who is the best player he's ever played with?  Teams were focusing solely on stopping his penetration anytime he called a pick, if they had to worry about a Griffin or even a Jordan rolling, plus Crawford/Redick/Collison/Dudley on the wing, Kyrie's efficiency would be much higher.
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