Author Topic: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis  (Read 8346 times)

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Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2014, 09:43:02 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Giddens over DeAndre Jordan.

What the flagnogg?

Well to be fair, Alexis Ajinca, Darrell Arthur, Donte Green, DJ White, Walter Sharpe, Joey Dorsey and Mario Chalmers went ahead of DeAndre Jordan.

Heck, if you have the foresight in 2008, you'd probably pick him over Joe Alexander, Marreese Speights, Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, Anthony Randolph, Brandon Rush and I could go on and on with names.

My point is a LOT of teams passed on him. I don't know, but at the time maybe they thought he's just an athletic big man who can jump, I don't know... Let's probably give Danny some slack there. He's not the only one who passed on DeAndre. A lot of GM's obviously didn't think that Jordan will be a very good rim protector and reboudning beast.
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Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2014, 11:46:56 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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It's so hard to scout the foreign player.  Generally, you get only the games they play nationally to actually look at them against 'some' NBA/NCAA competition.

The foreign player is usually going up against lesser competition, even lesser than NCAA competition at times.  How do you scout that ?  How do you compare ?

What happens when they play the best of the best ?  Or get out there with guys in division 1, who often times dominate a lesser conference but yet are still drafted late in the first or early in the second rounds ?  I.E. Guys like J.R. Giddens (ran through the Mountain West Conf. like it was nothing)

Do you take Giddens who dominated tougher competition here, or do you take Jawai who dominated slugs ?


It's a true guessing game when it comes to the foreign players.  You get lucky every once in a blue moon.

Neither ;D.  You take Chalmers, who showed his propensity for playing well under tremendous pressure for Kansas during their run to the NCAA title, or Deandre Jordan, because of his size, age, athleticism and other physical tools.  The guy was an amazing athlete in college as a 19 year old, iirc.  Why weren't more people drooling over his potential?  He was a clear upgrade over Perkins THEN ;D.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2014, 11:57:02 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Giddens over DeAndre Jordan.

What the flagnogg?

Well to be fair, Alexis Ajinca, Darrell Arthur, Donte Green, DJ White, Walter Sharpe, Joey Dorsey and Mario Chalmers went ahead of DeAndre Jordan.

Heck, if you have the foresight in 2008, you'd probably pick him over Joe Alexander, Marreese Speights, Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, Anthony Randolph, Brandon Rush and I could go on and on with names.

My point is a LOT of teams passed on him. I don't know, but at the time maybe they thought he's just an athletic big man who can jump, I don't know... Let's probably give Danny some slack there. He's not the only one who passed on DeAndre. A lot of GM's obviously didn't think that Jordan will be a very good rim protector and reboudning beast.

I thought that that's why teams draft big men, nowadays, because they clearly aren't opting for the most skilled guys, lol ;D.  It's the old, "he has the physical tools, so we can teach him all of the other stuff," approach, which is why I'm surprised he went as late as he did.  I didn't expect him to be in the 15-20 range, but I certainly thought that an aging team like the Spurs could utilize his athleticism, especially against the Lakers.  Meh, I probably just got lucky, but still - dat wingspan, doe ;) ;D

Edit - it wouldn't matter if we'd taken him or Chalmers, because Doc never would have played either one of them.  Ugh.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2014, 12:01:11 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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I just wish we had taken the greak freak.
think about how much better off we would be

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2014, 12:41:22 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Giddens over DeAndre Jordan.

What the flagnogg?

Well to be fair, Alexis Ajinca, Darrell Arthur, Donte Green, DJ White, Walter Sharpe, Joey Dorsey and Mario Chalmers went ahead of DeAndre Jordan.

Heck, if you have the foresight in 2008, you'd probably pick him over Joe Alexander, Marreese Speights, Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, Anthony Randolph, Brandon Rush and I could go on and on with names.

My point is a LOT of teams passed on him. I don't know, but at the time maybe they thought he's just an athletic big man who can jump, I don't know... Let's probably give Danny some slack there. He's not the only one who passed on DeAndre. A lot of GM's obviously didn't think that Jordan will be a very good rim protector and reboudning beast.

I thought that that's why teams draft big men, nowadays, because they clearly aren't opting for the most skilled guys, lol ;D.  It's the old, "he has the physical tools, so we can teach him all of the other stuff," approach, which is why I'm surprised he went as late as he did.  I didn't expect him to be in the 15-20 range, but I certainly thought that an aging team like the Spurs could utilize his athleticism, especially against the Lakers.  Meh, I probably just got lucky, but still - dat wingspan, doe ;) ;D

Edit - it wouldn't matter if we'd taken him or Chalmers, because Doc never would have played either one of them.  Ugh.

Excellent point. TP.
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Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2014, 01:29:08 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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It's so hard to scout the foreign player.  Generally, you get only the games they play nationally to actually look at them against 'some' NBA/NCAA competition.

The foreign player is usually going up against lesser competition, even lesser than NCAA competition at times.  How do you scout that ?  How do you compare ?

What happens when they play the best of the best ?  Or get out there with guys in division 1, who often times dominate a lesser conference but yet are still drafted late in the first or early in the second rounds ?  I.E. Guys like J.R. Giddens (ran through the Mountain West Conf. like it was nothing)

Do you take Giddens who dominated tougher competition here, or do you take Jawai who dominated slugs ?


It's a true guessing game when it comes to the foreign players.  You get lucky every once in a blue moon.

Neither ;D.  You take Chalmers, who showed his propensity for playing well under tremendous pressure for Kansas during their run to the NCAA title, or Deandre Jordan, because of his size, age, athleticism and other physical tools.  The guy was an amazing athlete in college as a 19 year old, iirc.  Why weren't more people drooling over his potential?  He was a clear upgrade over Perkins THEN ;D.

Of course. Hindsight's always 20/20.

A player like Giddens outplayed both if you look at the NCAA tape. J.R. was a legit college stud.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2014, 01:30:05 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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I just wish we had taken the greak freak.
think about how much better off we would be

Better off with what ? Olynyk's outplayed the freak all around for me.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2014, 02:09:26 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I just wish we had taken the greak freak.
think about how much better off we would be

If we had selected Giannis, I would have preferred to keep KG and Pierce, and somehow jettison Jason Terry ;), haha.  Leave him at the airport in Dallas, idc ;D.  Why?  Look at the effect that those two hall of famers had on Sullinger, Avery, and, obviously, Rondo.  You simply can't teach, let alone replace, guys like that.  No, I say that we should have kept our guys together, and let them retire here, as they should have :'(.  That doesn't mean, however, that this past season would have been a waste of time, at the end of which we would have been left without a lottery pick.  There were moves that could have been made.  What about Richard Hamilton, who was waived by the Bulls, and was surprisingly not picked up by anyone?  I don't like him because, imo, he's always been a whiny, dirty, player, but getting a guy like that would have reestablished the dynamic that the previous group had with Ray - a shooter, albeit with better size and a post game instead of 3-point range in Hamilton, a slasher in Pierce, and KG.  Add Rondo and Bass to those other guys and that's a pretty good starting five.  But wait, there's more ;D.  What about Oden, who I wish that we had gotten prior to last year?  I don't want him now, for obvious reasons, but at the time, he would have been a great addition, imo.  Sign Henry Sims, maybe Aaron Brooks to take over for Rondo until he comes back, move Avery to the bench, Giannis backs up the 2, 3, and 4 (ocassionally) spots, Sullinger (of course), and I think we're ready to go.  Just take the approach of the 09-10 team in keeping the older guys fresh, and use the season to develop guys like Giannis.  That is a deep team with plenty of young parts at crucial positions, and they would have definitely given Miami all they could handle - at least.  Hell, we might have been able to win it all with Rondo back.  Yeah, I know, I'm being an idiot (as usual, lol), but let me have this one for the moment ;D.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2014, 02:15:55 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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I just wish we had taken the greak freak.
think about how much better off we would be

Better off with what ? Olynyk's outplayed the freak all around for me.

Even on defense?  Come on, man.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2014, 02:33:35 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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It's so hard to scout the foreign player.  Generally, you get only the games they play nationally to actually look at them against 'some' NBA/NCAA competition.

The foreign player is usually going up against lesser competition, even lesser than NCAA competition at times.  How do you scout that ?  How do you compare ?

What happens when they play the best of the best ?  Or get out there with guys in division 1, who often times dominate a lesser conference but yet are still drafted late in the first or early in the second rounds ?  I.E. Guys like J.R. Giddens (ran through the Mountain West Conf. like it was nothing)

Do you take Giddens who dominated tougher competition here, or do you take Jawai who dominated slugs ?


It's a true guessing game when it comes to the foreign players.  You get lucky every once in a blue moon.

Neither ;D.  You take Chalmers, who showed his propensity for playing well under tremendous pressure for Kansas during their run to the NCAA title, or Deandre Jordan, because of his size, age, athleticism and other physical tools.  The guy was an amazing athlete in college as a 19 year old, iirc.  Why weren't more people drooling over his potential?  He was a clear upgrade over Perkins THEN ;D.

Of course. Hindsight's always 20/20.

A player like Giddens outplayed both if you look at the NCAA tape. J.R. was a legit college stud.

Now by NCAA tape, do you mean both statistically and in terms of film, because Giddens took almost 100 more shots than Chalmers, but didn't have his percentages at the line or from 3.  You could make the argument that he would have been the perfect replacement for Eddie House, and not just because he's a big-game player.  As much as I hate the guy, who I think was likely taught how to play dirty by Riley and Wade because he wasn't like that at all in college, Chalmers is an excellent defender (he's always had great hands and has been a great steals man), passer, shooter (obviously), and can actually dribble, lol.  The last point is very important because House couldn't dribble to save his life, and wasn't a good defensive player.  I love the guy, but at 6'2", Chalmers is the perfect replacement and 3rd guard for us.  He almost would have been like that group's Avery, except that he can dribble and pass ;D.

Still, both of those guys had better numbers than Jordan, but you knew that he was going to be a project.  If we'd signed Birdman and started Deandre, Jordan probably would have only played 15-20 minutes a game because of foul trouble, but who cares?  He was 19 lol.  At the time, Jordan was the guy I wanted, but I wish that we could have gotten both of them.  Trade Perk for a 2nd round pick, idc lol ;D.

As I said on draft night, who the **** is JR Giddens haha?  He was already going to be 24 by the end of the 08-09 season, so, yeah, that didn't exactly leave me filled with hope.  Ugh. 

Btw, as long as we're talking about guys who greatly exceeded expectations, what about Anthony Morrow?  Now that guy came out of nowhere ;D.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 02:39:00 AM by Beat LA »

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2014, 04:01:27 AM »

Offline Smartacus

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I just wish we had taken the greak freak.
think about how much better off we would be

If we had selected Giannis, I would have preferred to keep KG and Pierce, and somehow jettison Jason Terry ;), haha.  Leave him at the airport in Dallas, idc ;D.  Why?  Look at the effect that those two hall of famers had on Sullinger, Avery, and, obviously, Rondo.  You simply can't teach, let alone replace, guys like that.  No, I say that we should have kept our guys together, and let them retire here, as they should have :'(.  That doesn't mean, however, that this past season would have been a waste of time, at the end of which we would have been left without a lottery pick.  There were moves that could have been made.  What about Richard Hamilton, who was waived by the Bulls, and was surprisingly not picked up by anyone?  I don't like him because, imo, he's always been a whiny, dirty, player, but getting a guy like that would have reestablished the dynamic that the previous group had with Ray - a shooter, albeit with better size and a post game instead of 3-point range in Hamilton, a slasher in Pierce, and KG.  Add Rondo and Bass to those other guys and that's a pretty good starting five.  But wait, there's more ;D.  What about Oden, who I wish that we had gotten prior to last year?  I don't want him now, for obvious reasons, but at the time, he would have been a great addition, imo.  Sign Henry Sims, maybe Aaron Brooks to take over for Rondo until he comes back, move Avery to the bench, Giannis backs up the 2, 3, and 4 (ocassionally) spots, Sullinger (of course), and I think we're ready to go.  Just take the approach of the 09-10 team in keeping the older guys fresh, and use the season to develop guys like Giannis.  That is a deep team with plenty of young parts at crucial positions, and they would have definitely given Miami all they could handle - at least.  Hell, we might have been able to win it all with Rondo back.  Yeah, I know, I'm being an idiot (as usual, lol), but let me have this one for the moment ;D.

Actually at the time I was hoping for something very similar to happen. I wanted us to Pick Giannis, stash him to develop in a real Euro League (Not the Greek Children's League he was drafted out of), and have him come over during Pierce and KG's farewell tour. Rondo, Green, Antetokunmpo, Sullinger FA Center (Horford?) would have been a near seamless transition from one era to the next instead of forcing the fan base to sit through these tread water years in between.

The Spurs look like their doing a pretty nice job of it by developing players like Kawaii and Splitter to take over once the core is ready to retire. Always thought we'd do the same.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2014, 10:41:02 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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Well, from a lot of accounts Danny was all set to draft Yi if he hadn't been able to pull off the Ray Allen trade.

What does the C's international-scouting operation look like relative to other teams?  It's not just whether Danny is comfortable selecting players from foreign countries, its whether the team has made the commitment to being able to scout globally, like the Spurs have.

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2014, 12:25:35 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Thanks to the OP for doing all the research. When I originally posed the question in another thread, I was just curious but didn't have any actual data to back me up. I think the conclusion may be that while Ainge didn't often pass on any European gems, he also missed on the few that turned out to be good. I still think that in over a decade of drafting, the Celtics would have had at least one foreign success story, but it might just be a random fluke.

I thought of another question though: Do the Celtics tend to shy away from guys who are pure projects? After the high-schoolers Jefferson, Perk, and Gerald Green (almost all HS not named LeBron qualifying as "projects") in the mid-aughts, I feel like Ainge has been more comfortable taking guys with a more solid collegiate track record. Part of the thinking may be that though these guys won't be stars, they will definitely carve out a career as a role player. I see guys like Delonte West, Tony Allen, Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, Baby Davis and maybe Gomes as the epitome of this kind of drafting.

Somewhat disproving this idea is the fact that Rondo, Sullinger, Bradley, and Bill Walker were lauded HS talents who for whatever reason had their draft stock drop in college and were waiting there for Ainge to eagerly snatch them up. Ainge seems to love it when this happens, because he always brings it up to the press after the draft.

If Ainge has indeed soured on guys who are a little rawer, I hope it doesn't mean we end up with a lot of role players and ignore guys like Lance Stephenson or Paul George who were those type of project picks that ended up prospering eventually (remember even Gerald Green has ended up having a long career, it just took a little longer).

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2014, 10:03:38 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Well, from a lot of accounts Danny was all set to draft Yi if he hadn't been able to pull off the Ray Allen trade.

What does the C's international-scouting operation look like relative to other teams?  It's not just whether Danny is comfortable selecting players from foreign countries, its whether the team has made the commitment to being able to scout globally, like the Spurs have.

Again, that's what scares me about Danny.  Yi?  Really?

Re: "Danny doesn't like to draft foreigners": analysis
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2014, 10:23:37 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Well, from a lot of accounts Danny was all set to draft Yi if he hadn't been able to pull off the Ray Allen trade.

What does the C's international-scouting operation look like relative to other teams?  It's not just whether Danny is comfortable selecting players from foreign countries, its whether the team has made the commitment to being able to scout globally, like the Spurs have.

Again, that's what scares me about Danny.  Yi?  Really?

  Yi wasn't really that far-fetched of a pick. He ended up going 1 spot later, so it's not like Danny was the only one looking at him. Also, while Noah was drafted a few spots later, he (and maybe Young) were the only ones drafted in the next 20 picks that were really difference makers.