Author Topic: Most depressing Celtics article ever  (Read 16870 times)

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Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2014, 09:30:05 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Man, after a first read I would swear this article was written by someone from this board.

The article isn't depressing....It's just terrible. How does the "pop critic from Slate" who is also a  Media Studies Professor from U of Virginia get to write an ESPN article on the Boston Celtics? And which moron at ESPN said, "Yeaaah! This is the stuff we've been looking for, let's use this guy!"

Sports is part of pop culture.

He writes about basketball occasionally for Slate and other places.  Here, for example, is an article written for The Atlantic which mentions that he is a Celtics fan.  (He grew up in Medford and Lexington).

So, he is a professional writer who sometimes gets paid to write about his favorite sport.
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Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2014, 09:34:24 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans think last year's 25 win season didn't actually happen... like they have convinced themselves the team is still relevant and a playoff threat... we just had a down year.   That's one of the main points this article brings up... a lot of denial going around... fans riding the former glory of 2008-10 are kind of ignoring that we finished in the bottom 5 last year and we haven't really upgraded anything.  Our bench might be a bit better, but a slightly improved bench isn't going to make much of an impact when the Starting 5 is still average-to-terrible.  This team is really really bad right now.  We're in the thick of it.  Maybe we can get out of it eventually, but right now... we're in it.  This is actually happening.  We have a 25-32 win team right now.

Also.. .this idea that Ainge is moving away from the star model isn't accurate.  We tanked with hopes of landing a star.  We spent most of the summer desperately offering the entire team to Minny for Kevin Love.  This is still very much a team that wants a star.  We don't have one at the moment and don't seem to have the assets to acquire one.  We have some assets heading into 2018, though.  In a few years we should be in a better position.

I think a lot of posters here have too much of their ego invested in the idea the Celtics are going to suck to the point they, like this article, exaggerate the negative and are in denial about anything positive.

Mike

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2014, 09:48:29 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Interesting how people can dismiss things or takes sides so easily. Just look at this preseason.

-Some players are "back" at all-star level or going to be "studs". Other players are doing well only because it is preseason.
-Two teams do average in preseason but one is called a contender the other bottom of the league.

J.S.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 04:17:01 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2014, 10:27:37 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans think last year's 25 win season didn't actually happen... like they have convinced themselves the team is still relevant and a playoff threat... we just had a down year.   That's one of the main points this article brings up... a lot of denial going around... fans riding the former glory of 2008-10 are kind of ignoring that we finished in the bottom 5 last year and we haven't really upgraded anything.  Our bench might be a bit better, but a slightly improved bench isn't going to make much of an impact when the Starting 5 is still average-to-terrible.  This team is really really bad right now.  We're in the thimproved. t.  Maybe we can get out of it eventually, but right now... we're in it.  This is actually happening.  We have a 25-32 win team right now.

Also.. .this idea that Ainge is moving away from the star model isn't accurate.  We tanked with hopes of landing a star.  We spent most of the summer desperately offering the entire team to Minny for Kevin Love.  This is still very much a team that wants a star.  We don't have one at the moment and don't seem to have the assets to acquire one.  We have some assets heading into 2018, though.  In a few years we should be in a better position.

I think a lot of posters here have too much of their ego invested in the idea the Celtics are going to suck to the point they, like this article, exaggerate the negative and are in denial about anything positive.

Mike
First... most depressing Celtics article ever probably had to do with Len Bias.

Second... What's wrong with this article?  This was a bottom 5 team last year without star talent.   We haven't made significant additions.  Smart might end up being a star-caliber player, but he currently plays the same position as our only fringe all-star.  The young guys might show improvement, but none of them (other than Smart) has star potential and even if they were to take significant leaps, it's unlikely to vault us into relevance.  We're a bad team. 

The draft picks might pan out.  Some stuff could work out.  We might be in good position to steal a good player via trade.  But right now, this team stinks.  We're probably still a bottom 5 team.

The fact that he mentioned Sullinger as an undersized center (he plays power forward) and Bradley as an reluctant shooter just shows poorly researched this article is. It's okay to be negative, but when your article is negative for the sake of being negative, it's just as bad as an overly optimistic one. Smart and Sullinger have All star potential by the way.
Sullinger has played center, though.  He might be a good starter some day, but he's coming off a season averaging 13 points and 8 rebounds on 43% shooting.  I really don't see all-star potential. Solid role player on a good team.   Should get some stats on this bad team.

Would you describe Bradley as an aggressive offensive player up until this point in his career?  I wouldn't.  Most of his energy has been reserved for overly-aggressive defense. He averaged 13 shot attempts last year, though... starting to incorporate offense more into his game.  BUt why are we even talking about bradley... I'm not even sure that guy is a long-term starter in this league.

The article is pretty on point.  This team is pretty depressing right now.  WE're in the dumps.  Coming off a 25 win season heading for another one.  There's some hope for the future, but there's no clear path to turning this around.  Smart seems like the best bet to reach star level, but currently he's Rondo's backup.  We have picks to use over the next 3 years... maybe we'll finally luck out in the lotto at some point.  But right now, we're a very bad basketball team.

Great, let's extrapolate Sullinger's potential based on his second year after back surgery and an hand injuries that lingered throughout the season after November on a revamped roster with a rookie coach while playing out of position. Seems like the logical way to go about it.

As for Bradley, I suggest you look at his body of work since he got inserted in the starting line-up in late 2012. You're too influenced by his rookie campaign and his play coming off the bench early in his sophomore season. He's actually been very active offensively for the past 2 seasons+.
Sully and Bradley both looked impressive in the preseason, but that's preseason.  We'll see how they do.  I think Sully has more potential, but neither is a franchise cornerstone.  They'll be front-and-center this year as we putter away to 26 wins, though.  On a team mostly devoid of talent, those are two of the rare Celtics that actually have a long-term future in the NBA... whether as starters or role players, but probably not stars.

I really don't like the way this term is used mostly. Most players aren't considered franchise cornerstones until they prove to be. I'm assuming you are saying Bradley and Sullinger have no potential to grow into "franchise cornerstones", which I completely disagree with. It's a matter of opinion, I suppose, but even if it's just pre-season, Sully's shot has shown great improvement after testing the 3 last year. It was a 8 game sample size, but he still shot them at 50% at a good volume. Obviously he won't shoot 50% in the regular season, but I'd be surprised if he was at 27%. If Sully develops a consistent 3PT game, there is no reason he can't be a "franchise cornerstone". PFs who can shoot 3s and rebound like him are awesome. Every team wants them, and every team wants them to be their starting PF. You are underrating the quality he can potentially bring to this team as he further develops, and this is coming from someone who isn't even that big of a fan of Sully in the first place.

Bradley can be a starting guard on a contender. Why not? He defends with the best of them and can hit the 3 ball consistently. Look, the league is moving away from this "big 3" movement already. Sure Lebron formed another one in Cleveland, but it's clear a lot of teams are finding success by building a team with depth and sound structure. No one had any idea that Portland, Phoenix, Toronto, Charlotte, and Washington would be anywhere close to being as good as they were last season. For Phoenix, Toronto, and Charlotte, a huge reason for the success was their system. It fit their players, and they found success. Indiana, Memphis, and San Antonio are examples of teams doing "more with less" also. Yes, I include SAS there even though they have Tim Duncan and Tony Parker. Tim Duncan isn't a superstar out there anymore. Tony Parker was average in the playoffs in their most recent playoff run. They found success in building with depth and focusing on each and every player's strength. Even excluding SAS for a second, which I'm willing to do, every one of the teams I listed above were said to be devoid of talent before they actually started winning. In general people are overly negative about losing teams, and a lot of people lack foresight, which makes sense in a way. You can't necessarily assume development. The thing is, we have already gotten a glimpse of the potential for this regular in the pre-season. It may just be pre-season, but more players are buying into the system this year, and we are far more talented than last year. We have more capable shooters and ball-handlers, which is key for a team lacking in strong options.

Maybe things will change in a couple years, but in the present, it's clear Ainge and Stevens are moving towards more of a Indiana, Memphis, SAS, Phoenix, Charlotte, etc model than the star model of OKC, LAC, Cleveland, Miami of yesterday, and even Boston of yesterday.

But like I said, most of this is opinion so if you disagree that's okay. I'm fine with it. The article was not doing this, though. They were throwing everything out there as fact, and when they actually presented objective information, for the most part, it was misguided and wrong.
It's not just this article, though... it's pretty much every sports publication that is saying Boston is a bottomfeeder team this year.  Vegas agrees.   The premise of this article isn't outlandish... they are just reiterating what everyone else thinks based on what we know of the team.  It stunk last year and not much has changed.   

Of course, I hope we have some bizarre unthinkable turnaround, but this roster is still just a collection of "assets" awaiting some major 5-for-1 trade that may never come.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans think last year's 25 win season didn't actually happen... like they have convinced themselves the team is still relevant and a playoff threat... we just had a down year.   That's one of the main points this article brings up... a lot of denial going around... fans riding the former glory of 2008-10 are kind of ignoring that we finished in the bottom 5 last year and we haven't really upgraded anything.  Our bench might be a bit better, but a slightly improved bench isn't going to make much of an impact when the Starting 5 is still average-to-terrible.  This team is really really bad right now.  We're in the thick of it.  Maybe we can get out of it eventually, but right now... we're in it.  This is actually happening.  We have a 25-32 win team right now.

Also.. .this idea that Ainge is moving away from the star model isn't accurate.  We tanked with hopes of landing a star.  We spent most of the summer desperately offering the entire team to Minny for Kevin Love.  This is still very much a team that wants a star.  We don't have one at the moment and don't seem to have the assets to acquire one.  We have some assets heading into 2018, though.  In a few years we should be in a better position.

But so what if every publication is saying the Celtics will be bad. Obviously they will say that. We were bad last year, and like I said in my wall of text sometimes people lack foresight. I don't blame them because it's hard to predict development. We have no idea if Sully will come in and average 18/11. We don't know know if Rondo will come back to Pre injury levels. We don't know if smart will contend for ROY. The list goes on. That is why it is silly to say nothing has cchanged from last year. This isn't a team full of 30 year olds. These are guys still developing. Maybe they develop and make the playoffs and maybe they don't. No one can say for sure. No one is convincing themselves that last year was simply a down year. Some are just confident that the young guys will develop and the system will be improved. I'm not sure what is so hard to get about that. You don't have to agree with it, but don't put the idea down like it's impossible or rare. Like I said almost every publication said Phoenix, Toronto, Portland, Charlotte, and Washington would suck last year. Most people still had the Knicks in the top 3 in the East. What did it matter in the end? They were wrong. Obviously they were right about teams like Boston and Orlando last year, but most publications never get the surprises or dark horses right. That's why they are surprises in the first place.

I didn't say Ainge was completely going again the star model. I mean to say it's an option considering all of the successful teams in the NBA doing it right now. a

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2014, 10:56:52 PM »

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We are team with out elite talent .....no respect for us till that center and scorer join the team.

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2014, 02:41:58 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans think last year's 25 win season didn't actually happen... like they have convinced themselves the team is still relevant and a playoff threat... we just had a down year.   That's one of the main points this article brings up... a lot of denial going around... fans riding the former glory of 2008-10 are kind of ignoring that we finished in the bottom 5 last year and we haven't really upgraded anything.  Our bench might be a bit better, but a slightly improved bench isn't going to make much of an impact when the Starting 5 is still average-to-terrible.  This team is really really bad right now.  We're in the thick of it.  Maybe we can get out of it eventually, but right now... we're in it.  This is actually happening.  We have a 25-32 win team right now.

Also.. .this idea that Ainge is moving away from the star model isn't accurate.  We tanked with hopes of landing a star.  We spent most of the summer desperately offering the entire team to Minny for Kevin Love.  This is still very much a team that wants a star.  We don't have one at the moment and don't seem to have the assets to acquire one.  We have some assets heading into 2018, though.  In a few years we should be in a better position.

I think a lot of posters here have too much of their ego invested in the idea the Celtics are going to suck to the point they, like this article, exaggerate the negative and are in denial about anything positive.

Mike

Or we're just pessimists lol.  I wouldn't over think it.

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2014, 10:04:49 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Isn't Slate, a political magazine?

I agree with a lot of what he said.   I think some here have their heads in the clouds, I hope I am wrong but given the talent level of our team it will be a long season.   I hope we beat LA, MIA and Cleveland but see us winning 30 games.   Last year, I was within two games with my prediction.

Quote
exaggerate the negative and are in denial about anything positive.

And the other side of the coin, sees positive where there is none sometimes in games.   I think both mindsets are part of being a fan, worrying about the team and hoping they do well and having unrealistic expectations and unbridled hope.    Some of the trades posted here, one would think the posters are smoking something with a good young prospect given to us for mediocre parts.   

I do like watching young players grow, it is not as good as contending but there is a part of me who enjoys it.  Its much easier to pick a low number, I still watch most every game and then be surprised when they beat it than hope every game and get your heart tore out.    I have lived through several dry spells, the one before Bird, the one after Bird/Pitino and Post Big Three.  Truth, is it is not easy to build a champion if it was a lot of NBA teams would have them.  We have some nice young assets and complimentary parts,  we lack a star or two.   I doubt anyone we have could lead a team to a championship as a primary star.   

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2014, 12:28:29 PM »

Offline wahz

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http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/70954/breaking-very-bad-in-boston

This arcticle is highlighted on ESPN's NBA page. I can't believe they would publish garbage like this. I know the C's will most likely be bad this year (potentially very bad), but as a Celtics preview for the year, not one positive thing is said.

Rondo gets ripped on for his injury.
Sullinger has apparently no chance to ever be an all-star.
Smart would have been a good pick, if we'd gotten him last year..
Brandon Bass is a "high priced detritus"
Olynyks defense gets compared to the Big Dig

I don't think I've ever read an article where literally every single player gets ripped on.


Not one mention of Bradley's improved shooting. Coach Stevens isn't even mentioned. Doesn't this guy realize we are rebuilding? Ugh I'm angry. I don't know why I keep reading ESPN. I'll let you read the article for the rest if you care.


If we keep this core intact, I think we will make the playoffs and win over 40 games this year and improve a lot from there. That article will look real dumb and no one will recall it

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2014, 01:01:25 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans think last year's 25 win season didn't actually happen... like they have convinced themselves the team is still relevant and a playoff threat... we just had a down year.   That's one of the main points this article brings up... a lot of denial going around... fans riding the former glory of 2008-10 are kind of ignoring that we finished in the bottom 5 last year and we haven't really upgraded anything.  Our bench might be a bit better, but a slightly improved bench isn't going to make much of an impact when the Starting 5 is still average-to-terrible.  This team is really really bad right now.  We're in the thick of it.  Maybe we can get out of it eventually, but right now... we're in it.  This is actually happening.  We have a 25-32 win team right now.

Also.. .this idea that Ainge is moving away from the star model isn't accurate.  We tanked with hopes of landing a star.  We spent most of the summer desperately offering the entire team to Minny for Kevin Love.  This is still very much a team that wants a star.  We don't have one at the moment and don't seem to have the assets to acquire one.  We have some assets heading into 2018, though.  In a few years we should be in a better position.

I think a lot of posters here have too much of their ego invested in the idea the Celtics are going to suck to the point they, like this article, exaggerate the negative and are in denial about anything positive.

Mike

Or we're just pessimists lol.  I wouldn't over think it.

How can you be that pessimistic after one bad season?  It's not like this team has been horrible for half a decade?

Mike

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2014, 04:58:05 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans think last year's 25 win season didn't actually happen... like they have convinced themselves the team is still relevant and a playoff threat... we just had a down year.   That's one of the main points this article brings up... a lot of denial going around... fans riding the former glory of 2008-10 are kind of ignoring that we finished in the bottom 5 last year and we haven't really upgraded anything.  Our bench might be a bit better, but a slightly improved bench isn't going to make much of an impact when the Starting 5 is still average-to-terrible.  This team is really really bad right now.  We're in the thick of it.  Maybe we can get out of it eventually, but right now... we're in it.  This is actually happening.  We have a 25-32 win team right now.

Also.. .this idea that Ainge is moving away from the star model isn't accurate.  We tanked with hopes of landing a star.  We spent most of the summer desperately offering the entire team to Minny for Kevin Love.  This is still very much a team that wants a star.  We don't have one at the moment and don't seem to have the assets to acquire one.  We have some assets heading into 2018, though.  In a few years we should be in a better position.

I think a lot of posters here have too much of their ego invested in the idea the Celtics are going to suck to the point they, like this article, exaggerate the negative and are in denial about anything positive.

Mike

Or we're just pessimists lol.  I wouldn't over think it.

How can you be that pessimistic after one bad season?  It's not like this team has been horrible for half a decade?

Mike
+1 Mike,
Not like DA hasn't drafted good players in the past. He also took a mild ECF contender rebuilt them into a championship team that had a great run. People have to be more half full given history of current management. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 05:04:44 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2014, 08:25:00 PM »

Offline clover

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I think Sully is now the C's best player after Rondo. Also, Bradley is a good shooter.

Yeah, the C's were set back by the bounce of the lottery balls: both because they didn't land in the top 3 and because Cleveland bagged #1 again--and could thus put together the best package for Love.

And if this roster is so bad, who's to say that the C's won't land a franchise center in this year's draft? Bradley or Young could emerge as the shooting wing stud they need, Rondo could return to form and reup with the team, and then Green could look very good as a fifth-best player on the team. And that's not counting all the other first-round picks and cap space Danny will have to work with in the next year or so.

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2014, 09:12:18 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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The last time, to my memory, there was such a dreary outlook on BOS from ESPN was back in 2008:



We all know how that turned out.

While I'm not reserving my June 2015 BOS seats just yet, I do think we'll be considerably better than this article.

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2014, 12:27:24 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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The last time, to my memory, there was such a dreary outlook on BOS from ESPN was back in 2008:



We all know how that turned out.

While I'm not reserving my June 2015 BOS seats just yet, I do think we'll be considerably better than this article.

I think it would be interesting to see a panel discuss who will have more wins this season, the Celtics or Lakers.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2014, 12:50:23 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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The last time, to my memory, there was such a dreary outlook on BOS from ESPN was back in 2008:



We all know how that turned out.

While I'm not reserving my June 2015 BOS seats just yet, I do think we'll be considerably better than this article.

I think it would be interesting to see a panel discuss who will have more wins this season, the Celtics or Lakers.

Didn't the same, "experts," predict that we'd lose to Cleveland in 2010?  Hey, I'll admit that I didn't think that we could, which made that all the more sweet.  Lebron's elbow suddenly flaring up in game 5 versus Chicago?  Give me a break.  I thought that that might have been a big reason why we won, aside from the play of Rondo, KG, and Sheed, but after watching the 2011 finals, I began to think that we just beat him lol.  Rondo DOMINATED.  Can anyone find the graphic for that series like the one above?  It had to be like 8-2, at best lol, in favor of the Cavs.  I especially loved this clip after game 2 where Stuart Scott was so befuddled that he might as well have said, "what happened to our boy?" ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwABSzH-yCk

Re: Most depressing Celtics article ever
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2014, 12:57:45 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Ha!  I found it, and not ONE, "expert," picked us ;D ahahahaha.