Author Topic: Rondo goes through full practice  (Read 20512 times)

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Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2014, 02:53:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2014, 04:10:57 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2014, 04:36:42 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
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  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2014, 05:13:41 PM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
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If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

You act as though Rondo is the 2001 Space Odyssey of the NBA, too complicated for many people to understand his greatness.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2014, 05:33:08 PM »

Offline sed522002

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If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

You act as though Rondo is the 2001 Space Odyssey of the NBA, too complicated for many people to understand his greatness.

You'd think a guy that had a serious knee injury would get some leeway LAST season. The season he only played 30 games with no back to backs. Couple that with a new coach and system. I wonder why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt like Rose gets. Anyways, I think that his play this season will be fair game for any criticism.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2014, 05:45:49 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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  • Tommy Points: 975
If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

You act as though Rondo is the 2001 Space Odyssey of the NBA, too complicated for many people to understand his greatness.

You'd think a guy that had a serious knee injury would get some leeway LAST season. The season he only played 30 games with no back to backs. Couple that with a new coach and system. I wonder why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt like Rose gets. Anyways, I think that his play this season will be fair game for any criticism.

I'm dating this back to the 12-13 season, where we started 20-23 and instantly began to play better once he went down.

Rondo and criticism don't go hand in hand with Tim. After all, he's the same guy that said a Rondo injury is why he shot so poorly in the 10 Finals and why Kobe basically left him all alone the entire series. An injury that Tim actually never explained, maybe it was vertigo or double vision. If he again plays poorly then he should receive criticism. However, Tim won't be the one to give it. He'll be firmly entrenched on the other side giving asinine reasons to blame everything, but Rondo.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2014, 06:15:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

  Why don't you go back to one of the many times you've asked that in the past and re-read the post instead. We've been through this before. You ask me for reasons why we've lost, I give you a laundry list of them and ask you whether you think any of them either didn't occur or wouldn't affect our record, you fail to respond, and then a few Rondo threads later you start the whole cycle all over again. I guess we could just leave it at "many things you didn't seem to notice and don't seem to be able to remember".

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2014, 09:27:46 PM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 621
  • Tommy Points: 29
Rondo will come back 100%,

Well win our first 7 out of 10

Be 7-3, rondo playing great as well as smart, and ee trade rondo to Houston for Terrance Jones this years first and Next Years first.

We then flip Jones, and A First to move up in the draft. Draft Towns and Caulie Stein. Sign Marc Gasol to a max deal.

smart
Avery
Green
Sully
Gasol

Turner
Young
Towns
Kelly
Stein

Gasol signs here because he sees how great of a defensive front court duo Smart and Avery are, We become the best defensive team in the league, and win a chip when Towns becomes KD.2.

????. :)

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2014, 09:57:17 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
Rondo will come back 100%,

Well win our first 7 out of 10

Be 7-3, rondo playing great as well as smart, and ee trade rondo to Houston for Terrance Jones this years first and Next Years first.

We then flip Jones, and A First to move up in the draft. Draft Towns and Caulie Stein. Sign Marc Gasol to a max deal.

smart
Avery
Green
Sully
Gasol

Turner
Young
Towns
Kelly
Stein

Gasol signs here because he sees how great of a defensive front court duo Smart and Avery are, We become the best defensive team in the league, and win a chip when Towns becomes KD.2.

????. :)

Wcs is not a player BS will want on the team

Towns yes. Alexander yes. Kaminsky yes.

In terms of what will happen with rondo

Scenerio 1. Rondo will play the same as he has the past two seasons, we will be under 500, no  talks of contract extension and rondo traded.

Scenerio 2:  rondo changes from how he has played as of recent (going up tempo) and the team is playoff bound by mid season. Celts will want to sign him to an extension. Depending how he performs in the playoffs the closer to max he will get

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2014, 10:59:15 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

You act as though Rondo is the 2001 Space Odyssey of the NBA, too complicated for many people to understand his greatness.

You'd think a guy that had a serious knee injury would get some leeway LAST season. The season he only played 30 games with no back to backs. Couple that with a new coach and system. I wonder why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt like Rose gets. Anyways, I think that his play this season will be fair game for any criticism.

I'm dating this back to the 12-13 season, where we started 20-23 and instantly began to play better once he went down.

  We didn't instantly doing anything, the team was all over the map that year. That's something you just don't get. Right before Rondo went out the team lost 6 straight. Right before that we won 6 straight. Right before that we lost 8 out of 10. Right before that we won 6 of 9. They "started playing well" about 5-7 times that season, and started playing like crap about as many times. Why don't you explain why the team went through all of those good and bad streaks before Rondo's injury? I can't wait to see the "common denominator".

Rondo and criticism don't go hand in hand with Tim. After all, he's the same guy that said a Rondo injury is why he shot so poorly in the 10 Finals and why Kobe basically left him all alone the entire series. An injury that Tim actually never explained, maybe it was vertigo or double vision. If he again plays poorly then he should receive criticism. However, Tim won't be the one to give it. He'll be firmly entrenched on the other side giving asinine reasons to blame everything, but Rondo.


  Sure. Rondo picked up an injury in the Orlando series. They were fairly vague about it at the time, but he had to come out of one of the playoff games and go to the locker room for treatment. It noticeably affected his play, and it showed up in the stats. Before the injury he was averaging 17/6/11, after it he averaged 14/5/7. His fta/game dropped from 5.5 to 4, and his fg% went from 49% to 43%. Obviously you think I made this up, and you'll somehow convince yourself that it was just some coincidence that Rondo left a game for medical treatment, that doesn't at all imply that he picked up an injury.


  This brings up a somewhat central point to these discussions. Rondo was injured, not enough to take him out of the lineup but enough to affect his play and even his stats and you were oblivious to it to the point you think I'm just making it up because he was playing poorly. You don't seem to pay enough attention to what's going on in the games to notice things like that. That's why you refer to any explanations of why the team played poorly as "asinine" or "excuses" or "blaming people". You just don't know whether they'd be true or not.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2014, 03:33:45 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass
I would think that the player getting a free pass in this case would be Marcus Smart. Smart hasn't even outplayed Evan Turner for the back up PG position and Rondo has a ring and 4 All Star games and 4 All-Defensive team awards and averaged more than 11 assist per game three times to prove he deserves the starting position over both those players.

Your statement makes little sense.

And when Rondo is healthy and ready to play at full capacity, he will regain his starting spot.

Just until then - play the guys who are healthy enough to give best effort.

This isn't like last season when Ainge traded away all the backcourt depth and Boston had no quality alternatives to playing Rondo while he was at 60-70% for 30mpg.

This year's team has great depth. It can has good alternatives on it's roster to a partially-healthy Rondo. When Rondo is ready, the starting PG is his. It is not under threat. He is far and away the best player on the team.

But if he isn't ready to play at a high level from Day One, then bring him off the bench and let him play himself into shape. Let the other guys do the heavy lifting for now.

I am by no means a Rondo fanboy - I've made more than my share of criticisms of him and his game.  But at the same time I've also given him praise where it's due.  I'm a fair man.

The brutally honest truth is that Rajon Rondo is the best player on this team.  He is BY FAR the best player on this team.  It's not even close. 

In fact he is SO FAR above any other player on this team that Rondo, even at 70% of his ability, is probably still better than any other player on this team.

This is why Rondo, even if he's not at his best, even if he's only at 70%...is still well deserving of the starting PG spot.

I don't by any means believe in the old Doc Rivers mentality of "vets have earned respect, they should always get the starting spot".  Not at all.  But I do believe they have earned the benefit of the doubt.  I believe the proven vets (The Rajon Rondo's, the Jeff Green's, the Avery Bradley's, even the Brandon Bass') have earned the right to start for this team at the beginning of the season.

Any new guys who are fresh on the team should have to earn their playing time and earn their roles.  2 or 3 weeks in to the season if one of those vets isn't performing up to par, and one of those new guys has been consistently overachieving...then by all means, give them that starting spot.

Until then, the vets have earned the right to start in that role, and it's up to them to defend it.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2014, 07:35:01 AM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8497
  • Tommy Points: 975
If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

You act as though Rondo is the 2001 Space Odyssey of the NBA, too complicated for many people to understand his greatness.

You'd think a guy that had a serious knee injury would get some leeway LAST season. The season he only played 30 games with no back to backs. Couple that with a new coach and system. I wonder why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt like Rose gets. Anyways, I think that his play this season will be fair game for any criticism.

I'm dating this back to the 12-13 season, where we started 20-23 and instantly began to play better once he went down.

  We didn't instantly doing anything, the team was all over the map that year. That's something you just don't get. Right before Rondo went out the team lost 6 straight. Right before that we won 6 straight. Right before that we lost 8 out of 10. Right before that we won 6 of 9. They "started playing well" about 5-7 times that season, and started playing like crap about as many times. Why don't you explain why the team went through all of those good and bad streaks before Rondo's injury? I can't wait to see the "common denominator".

Rondo and criticism don't go hand in hand with Tim. After all, he's the same guy that said a Rondo injury is why he shot so poorly in the 10 Finals and why Kobe basically left him all alone the entire series. An injury that Tim actually never explained, maybe it was vertigo or double vision. If he again plays poorly then he should receive criticism. However, Tim won't be the one to give it. He'll be firmly entrenched on the other side giving asinine reasons to blame everything, but Rondo.


  Sure. Rondo picked up an injury in the Orlando series. They were fairly vague about it at the time, but he had to come out of one of the playoff games and go to the locker room for treatment. It noticeably affected his play, and it showed up in the stats. Before the injury he was averaging 17/6/11, after it he averaged 14/5/7. His fta/game dropped from 5.5 to 4, and his fg% went from 49% to 43%. Obviously you think I made this up, and you'll somehow convince yourself that it was just some coincidence that Rondo left a game for medical treatment, that doesn't at all imply that he picked up an injury.


  This brings up a somewhat central point to these discussions. Rondo was injured, not enough to take him out of the lineup but enough to affect his play and even his stats and you were oblivious to it to the point you think I'm just making it up because he was playing poorly. You don't seem to pay enough attention to what's going on in the games to notice things like that. That's why you refer to any explanations of why the team played poorly as "asinine" or "excuses" or "blaming people". You just don't know whether they'd be true or not.

A classic response from the ultimate Rondo apologist.

You say that the team was inconsistent yet they played better, from a w-l perspective, without him in 2013. So that's your "myriad" of reasons? Isn't Rondo the type of player that's supposed to elevate the games of players around him, thus making their life easier?

So in the 2010 Finals he was injured, which affected his shooting. Didn't he have cramps in that Magic game you mentioned? However, let's say he was injured, haven't you been on the other side claiming that Rondo isn't injury prone? Don't you notice how you speak out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to Rondo?

09-10 (Unknown injury according to BballTim) Rondo's injury impacts his shooting during the 2010 Finals, which causes Kobe to double off him the entire series, making it harder for other C's players, and daring Rondo to shoot wide open shots.

10-11 He played through plantar fasciitis in his feet. He missed three games in November due to a strained left hamstring. He sprained his left ankle in a win against the New York Knicks on December 15, 2010, and missed the next seven games. Missed 12 games. Dislocated elbow in the 2nd rd vs Miami.

11-12 Rondo missed 13 out of 66 games (lockout season) with different injuries.

12-13 ACL tear. Missed 46 games.

13-14 Only plays 30 games still recovering from the ACL. Missed 52 games.

14-15 Fractured metacarpal. Games missed TBD.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2014, 10:10:01 AM »

Offline BballTim

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If Rondo isn't ready to go all-out ... then, I hope Stevens keeps him on the bench.

Let Smart start and let Rondo build up his game-fitness from backup PG slot.

+1. Absolutely

No player should be given a free pass. And a great player should not want a free pass

Who is giving anyone a free pass?  I mean come on.  What are you even talking about?

Good to hear that Rondo is coming back.  Every thread doesn't have to turn into this nonsense does it?

It's so weird how obsessed this guy is with knocking Rondo, even when Rondo hasn't done anything wrong. It's like Rondo broke his heart or something.

naw. Just not a fan of players that play like Rondo the past 2 seasons.  Near triple doubles, yet the team goes on long losing streaks , and when he gets injured the team starts to win.  He needs to get it

On to top of this, i'm not alone in criticizing Rondo. Have you heard Tommy, Jackie all say the same things about Rondo??

I guess you chose to ignore their comments and all you can think about is the glory stuff that happened 3, 4 years ago.

This was never Rondo's fault. This was Doc's putrid, vomit inducing offense that he was completely unwilling to adjust in his 6 years within the Big 3 era. They gave Rondo the keys without even designing the offense to suit his game. Stevens has been here a little over a year, and he has completely changed the system and structure to fit Rondo's game more. Fast pace and 3PT shooting. Rondo will rack them up in a motion offense. This is a good offense to run regardless of whether Rondo is here or not, but this is finally an offense that is designed to allow Rondo and the team to potentially succeed.

You make a valid point. Could of been Doc's fault for how things went on the offensive end.  But what was not Doc's fault was Rondo lazy style , gambling defensive ways.    We were getting killed on the defensive end a few seasons ago.  The opposing pg got through the initial wall (Rondo) repeatedly and they were like in candy land with how many options they had to score a bucket.  When Rondo went down due to injury, AB and Lee took care of business and guys like KG , didn't have to suffer.

  Except, unsurprisingly, that's not what really happened. The team started the season playing terrible defense in November, better defense in December and good defense in January (with AB back). The defense we were playing in January before Rondo got hurt was better than the defense we played after he was hurt. I sometimes wonder whether your claims about Rondo are generally inaccurate because you don't like him, or if you don't like him because your opinion on what happens on the court is generally inaccurate.

I guess Tommy and Jackie don't like him either

You can be against my points regarding RR all you want.  We are just fans.   But imo criticism/points made by a Celtics legend like Tommy, shouldn't be discounted

  How many times has Tommy criticized Rondo? How many times has he praised Rondo? I'd guess his opinion of Rondo is much higher than yours is. Imo you shouldn't just discount it.

I don't recall Tommy critiquing Rondo before last season. However, in April he said..
Quote
"One of the things you do, and it's tough to do with a guy like Rondo, is you pull him out and put someone else in," proposed Heinsohn. "I don't care [that he's the captain]. That's what you have to do. You've got to pull him aside and talk to him. It's a bad habit that he has from playing with different types of players. He has to play the style that brings out the best in these current teammates."

This past game against the Nets he again started talking about how the ball is really zipping from player to player and how Rondo might have a hard time adjusting to the system. He talked about how Rondo used to pass the ball ahead early in his career, but how he now walks the ball up and doesn't push the tempo.

This is also a good article, which speaks about Rondo's ball dominance:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/3/15/5469908/the-three-laws-of-rajon-rondo-brad-stevens-motion-offense-muse-analysis-spor****-stats-advanced-nba

Can Rondo adjust to Stevens' motion offense? Can he play off the ball in that offense? Will he be happy if his assist numbers presumingly drop as he no longer dominates the ball as much? Can he play with the pace Stevens' wants?

These are legitimate questions. Questions that will likely decide Rondo's future with the team.

  Yes, everyone's well aware of that quote. That's obviously what we're discussing. There's no real evidence that Rondo doesn't pass the ball ahead, in fact there's evidence that he does. There's no evidence that the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's not "walking up the floor", in fact there's evidence that we don't.

   And when you're looking at legitimate questions about whether Rondo can play in Brad's offense, you should start with the most obvious one. Is there any evidence whatsoever that *Stevens* doesn't think Rondo can't play in his offense? How about evidence that Brad wants Rondo to spend a lot of time off the ball or that he prefers players other than Rondo to control the ball when he's on the court?

Are you asking for evidence of what Stevens thinks? Daunting task, don't you think?

  Not really. The guy talks, and the guy controls who plays and how much they play. Was he happy that Rondo skipped the trip to Sacramento? Did he think Sully needed to get into better shape? Are you under the impression he never comments on Rondo, his play, or how his being on the court affect what Stevens has the team doing?

Tim, be objective every now and then. The last 2 years we've had a worse record with Rondo than without. Your persistent attempts to surmise that by blaming everyone else except the common denominator is so sad, it becomes comical.

   You seem to be under the impression that objective means agreeing with what you say, no matter how uninformed or incorrect it is. What's comical is your insistence that Rondo's absence or presence in the lineup is the only thing that changed over those years that would have a noticeable impact on wins or losses. There were plenty of other things going on, including wildly inconsistent play over the course of the season by the entire team. I think the only objective conclusion I can draw is that the myriad of other reasons the team would win or lose are either things you're unable to notice or you're unable to understand how they could impact the team's fortunes.

  I'd guess your "common denominator" comment is because there are, at different times during a season, different reasons the team does well or poorly. The fact that it isn't the same reason all the time and there isn't a "common denominator" is just too complex for you. Which is also comical, objectively speaking.

Please elaborate. You like put a lot of words together and while it may sound really good, they really are empty thoughts. So again, please give me the "myriad" of reasons on why the team has had a better record without Rondo than with him, why many players in the last 2 seasons seem to play better without him, and why Rondo is not to blame whatsoever for any of it.

You act as though Rondo is the 2001 Space Odyssey of the NBA, too complicated for many people to understand his greatness.

You'd think a guy that had a serious knee injury would get some leeway LAST season. The season he only played 30 games with no back to backs. Couple that with a new coach and system. I wonder why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt like Rose gets. Anyways, I think that his play this season will be fair game for any criticism.

I'm dating this back to the 12-13 season, where we started 20-23 and instantly began to play better once he went down.

  We didn't instantly doing anything, the team was all over the map that year. That's something you just don't get. Right before Rondo went out the team lost 6 straight. Right before that we won 6 straight. Right before that we lost 8 out of 10. Right before that we won 6 of 9. They "started playing well" about 5-7 times that season, and started playing like crap about as many times. Why don't you explain why the team went through all of those good and bad streaks before Rondo's injury? I can't wait to see the "common denominator".

Rondo and criticism don't go hand in hand with Tim. After all, he's the same guy that said a Rondo injury is why he shot so poorly in the 10 Finals and why Kobe basically left him all alone the entire series. An injury that Tim actually never explained, maybe it was vertigo or double vision. If he again plays poorly then he should receive criticism. However, Tim won't be the one to give it. He'll be firmly entrenched on the other side giving asinine reasons to blame everything, but Rondo.


  Sure. Rondo picked up an injury in the Orlando series. They were fairly vague about it at the time, but he had to come out of one of the playoff games and go to the locker room for treatment. It noticeably affected his play, and it showed up in the stats. Before the injury he was averaging 17/6/11, after it he averaged 14/5/7. His fta/game dropped from 5.5 to 4, and his fg% went from 49% to 43%. Obviously you think I made this up, and you'll somehow convince yourself that it was just some coincidence that Rondo left a game for medical treatment, that doesn't at all imply that he picked up an injury.


  This brings up a somewhat central point to these discussions. Rondo was injured, not enough to take him out of the lineup but enough to affect his play and even his stats and you were oblivious to it to the point you think I'm just making it up because he was playing poorly. You don't seem to pay enough attention to what's going on in the games to notice things like that. That's why you refer to any explanations of why the team played poorly as "asinine" or "excuses" or "blaming people". You just don't know whether they'd be true or not.

A classic response from the ultimate Rondo apologist.

You say that the team was inconsistent yet they played better, from a w-l perspective, without him in 2013. So that's your "myriad" of reasons? Isn't Rondo the type of player that's supposed to elevate the games of players around him, thus making their life easier?


  Again, you've asked me this many times, I've answered it many times and each time you ignored my questions about whether you thought the reasons were valid or not. Why don't you try answering my questions about the "common denominator" reasons that the team went on so many streaks of good and bad play before Rondo left the lineup? Why did we go from winning 6 of 9 to losing 8 of 10 to winning 6 straight to losing 6 straight? Not a game-by-game "in ths game we turned the ball over and in this game we missed a lot of threes" but, again, what the common denominators were and why they changed. That might give me a better idea of what you'd consider a valid reason and what you consider to be an asinine excuse.

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2014, 10:14:08 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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have tried to catch glimpses of rondo to see if his explosiveness is back not only first step but to hoop and his lateral movement-can he still attack the basket  and explode up-

Re: Rondo goes through full practice
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2014, 11:04:34 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Boy, the debate rages.  A couple of questions seem to remain unresolved and will likely remain so.  To recap:

From a won-loss record standpoint, there is a fairly large sample of games with Rondo in and Rondo out.  In these games, paradoxically, we did better in the games that Rondo did not play.  (We also averaged more assists in the games that Rondo did not play).  It is impossible to single out Rondo but if you compare it to say games KG did not play, where there is a big W-L impact, you have to conclude (at a minimum) that Rondo did not make those teams better by as much as many assume and you could even take the numbers and posit the extreme that Rondo made the teams worse.

That was then, this is now.  On this team, I think Rondo will really be the best player and will impact w-l more but his flaws will still be exploited by the other teams.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 11:31:43 AM by Vermont Green »