Author Topic: We are going to be better than people think  (Read 30809 times)

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Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2014, 01:39:02 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Not going to argue anything in the bolded, but the PGs that CAN shoot, are explosive, etc - have no banners.
There are many guards who never played with Pierce, Garnett, and Allen that have no banners. Some of them can shoot, and some of them can't.

The case in point is, it's an extreme rarity for a guard that has as severe shooting issues as Rondo to be the best player on a relevant team.
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Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2014, 01:43:27 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Not going to argue anything in the bolded, but the PGs that CAN shoot, are explosive, etc - have no banners.
There are many guards who never played with Pierce, Garnett, and Allen that have no banners. Some of them can shoot, and some of them can't.

The case in point is, it's an extreme rarity for a guard that has as severe shooting issues as Rondo to be the best player on a relevant team.

I simply don't believe Rajon Rondo has "severe" shooting issues...just don't.

I don't believe you do, either.

I've seen too many statistics posted on here to believe what you said.

C'mon now.

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2014, 01:44:57 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Unfortunately, being a Celtics' fan in Oklahoma I've had a hard time all off-season convincing my friends that Boston will be a playoff team this year. I'm keeping my expectations tempered, but I did send out a mass text last night letting everyone know the score. I will be making my annual trip to Dallas next Monday to proudly wear my Rondo jersey and support Boston. If anyone is around that area and going to the game I hope to see you there.
Yes, it's generally hard to convince people in something that's not very likely. Sure, a 20+ point win against a dysfunctional squad missing their best player is nice. However, the problems remain.

1. Rondo can't shoot. Not from three, not from outside of 15 feet, and not from the free throw line. After another season with no visible progress whatsoever, I think it's time to accept that he is what he is at this point.
2. No go-to scoring in the starting lineup.
3. No players that can create reliably create their own shot in the clutch.

Sure, it seems that unlike last season, we no longer have to play guys that are not NBA caliber players at this stage of their careers (e.g. Pressey, Wallace), but that's only moderately reassuring.
1. Stevens seems to have devised a lineup in which Rondo's lack of shooting isn't a huge problem. For the majority of the game yesterday they played him with at least 3 above average 3 point shooters. If Sullinger, Olynyk, Green, Thornton, Bradley and Turner can knock down 3's at an above average clip, Rondo's lack of shooting becomes significantly less of a big deal.

2/3. Two and three are essentially the same because the end of the game is when you need a go to cluch scorer. The hope is with the offense and the shooting that the floor is spaced enough to get clutch buckets by running the offense (similar to how the Spurs score in the clutch). Last night their 3 point shooting and spacing allowed a bunch of easy buckets in the pick and roll. I'd always rather have a layup in the pick and roll or an open 3 off penetration over a contested shot from a go to scorer in the clutch. However, when they needed a bucket last night they seemed to rely on matchups (giving the ball to Sully in the post or letting Green create on the wing) but I think you will see the ball go to either Green, Rondo or Sully for clutch/go to scorer shot creation.
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Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2014, 01:48:20 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I simply don't believe Rajon Rondo has "severe" shooting issues...just don't.

I don't believe you do, either.

I've seen too many statistics posted on here to believe what you said.

C'mon now.
Rondo's career shooting numbers: 40% on 2s from outside 10 feet, 25% from three, 65% from the foul line. That's not "severe" to you?
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2014, 01:50:57 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Not going to argue anything in the bolded, but the PGs that CAN shoot, are explosive, etc - have no banners.
There are many guards who never played with Pierce, Garnett, and Allen that have no banners. Some of them can shoot, and some of them can't.

The case in point is, it's an extreme rarity for a guard that has as severe shooting issues as Rondo to be the best player on a relevant team.

I simply don't believe Rajon Rondo has "severe" shooting issues...just don't.

I don't believe you do, either.

I've seen too many statistics posted on here to believe what you said.

C'mon now.

Even if you disagree with the assessment, Rondo's not a great jumpshooter by any stretch of the phrase.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2014, 01:54:16 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I simply don't believe Rajon Rondo has "severe" shooting issues...just don't.

I don't believe you do, either.

I've seen too many statistics posted on here to believe what you said.

C'mon now.
Rondo's career shooting numbers: 40% on 2s from outside 10 feet, 25% from three, 65% from the foul line. That's not "severe" to you?

Key word "career" vs your assertion of "another season with no visible progress whatsoever".

Funny you mentioned outside of 15 ft. In 2013, prior to his ACL injury he was shooting 48% in the 16-23 feet range. I'd call that a crapload of progress, and to me this year (now with healthy legs for him) I saw visible continuation of that progress he had made, he made his shots last night after all.

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2014, 01:55:43 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Unfortunately, being a Celtics' fan in Oklahoma I've had a hard time all off-season convincing my friends that Boston will be a playoff team this year. I'm keeping my expectations tempered, but I did send out a mass text last night letting everyone know the score. I will be making my annual trip to Dallas next Monday to proudly wear my Rondo jersey and support Boston. If anyone is around that area and going to the game I hope to see you there.
Yes, it's generally hard to convince people in something that's not very likely. Sure, a 20+ point win against a dysfunctional squad missing their best player is nice. However, the problems remain.

1. Rondo can't shoot. Not from three, not from outside of 15 feet, and not from the free throw line. After another season with no visible progress whatsoever, I think it's time to accept that he is what he is at this point.
2. No go-to scoring in the starting lineup.
3. No players that can create reliably create their own shot in the clutch.

Sure, it seems that unlike last season, we no longer have to play guys that are not NBA caliber players at this stage of their careers (e.g. Pressey, Wallace), but that's only moderately reassuring.
1. Stevens seems to have devised a lineup in which Rondo's lack of shooting isn't a huge problem. For the majority of the game yesterday they played him with at least 3 above average 3 point shooters. If Sullinger, Olynyk, Green, Thornton, Bradley and Turner can knock down 3's at an above average clip, Rondo's lack of shooting becomes significantly less of a big deal.

2/3. Two and three are essentially the same because the end of the game is when you need a go to cluch scorer. The hope is with the offense and the shooting that the floor is spaced enough to get clutch buckets by running the offense (similar to how the Spurs score in the clutch). Last night their 3 point shooting and spacing allowed a bunch of easy buckets in the pick and roll. I'd always rather have a layup in the pick and roll or an open 3 off penetration over a contested shot from a go to scorer in the clutch. However, when they needed a bucket last night they seemed to rely on matchups (giving the ball to Sully in the post or letting Green create on the wing) but I think you will see the ball go to either Green, Rondo or Sully for clutch/go to scorer shot creation.
The Spurs have Duncan, Ginobili, and Tony Parker. Their ability to score, in the clutch or otherwise, is just a tad different.

If you think you'd get clutch scoring by giving the ball to Rondo (who's not going to give you a long-distance shot or 2 scored free throws with any sort of reliability) and spreading the floor, prepare to lose most of the close games we play in.

As for yesterday, Sullinger worked against the likes of Mason Plumlee and Jerome Jordan, and Green was 4 for 10. That is all.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2014, 01:57:30 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Now that we've established that one game can be evidence to disprove longstanding concerns about Rondo's shooting acumen, maybe we can get to the actual point of Koz's post?

it's an extreme rarity for a guard that has as [such visible] shooting issues as Rondo to be the best player on a relevant team.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2014, 01:58:40 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I simply don't believe Rajon Rondo has "severe" shooting issues...just don't.

I don't believe you do, either.

I've seen too many statistics posted on here to believe what you said.

C'mon now.
Rondo's career shooting numbers: 40% on 2s from outside 10 feet, 25% from three, 65% from the foul line. That's not "severe" to you?

Key word "career" vs your assertion of "another season with no visible progress whatsoever".

Funny you mentioned outside of 15 ft. In 2013, prior to his ACL injury he was shooting 48% in the 16-23 feet range. I'd call that a crapload of progress, and to me this year (now with healthy legs for him) I saw visible continuation of that progress he had made, he made his shots last night after all.
Over the last 4 season, Rondo has shot .350 (81 games), .420 (68 games), .390 (53 games), .510 (38 games) from 16-23 range. Forgive me if I'm not willing to hang my hat on a tiny 38 game sample from last year. He's done the hot stretch shooting thing before.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2014, 02:11:45 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I simply don't believe Rajon Rondo has "severe" shooting issues...just don't.

I don't believe you do, either.

I've seen too many statistics posted on here to believe what you said.

C'mon now.
Rondo's career shooting numbers: 40% on 2s from outside 10 feet, 25% from three, 65% from the foul line. That's not "severe" to you?

Key word "career" vs your assertion of "another season with no visible progress whatsoever".

Funny you mentioned outside of 15 ft. In 2013, prior to his ACL injury he was shooting 48% in the 16-23 feet range. I'd call that a crapload of progress, and to me this year (now with healthy legs for him) I saw visible continuation of that progress he had made, he made his shots last night after all.
Over the last 4 season, Rondo has shot .350 (81 games), .420 (68 games), .390 (53 games), .510 (38 games) from 16-23 range. Forgive me if I'm not willing to hang my hat on a tiny 38 game sample from last year. He's done the hot stretch shooting thing before.

That's fine, the only thing I'm taking issue with is with your assertion of "no visible progress" which is flat out wrong.

You can argue about whether he's a good shooter or not with someone else. My problem was with the no visible progress aspect, which is false, even more so after a game in which he actually made his shots.

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2014, 02:19:24 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Unfortunately, being a Celtics' fan in Oklahoma I've had a hard time all off-season convincing my friends that Boston will be a playoff team this year. I'm keeping my expectations tempered, but I did send out a mass text last night letting everyone know the score. I will be making my annual trip to Dallas next Monday to proudly wear my Rondo jersey and support Boston. If anyone is around that area and going to the game I hope to see you there.
Yes, it's generally hard to convince people in something that's not very likely. Sure, a 20+ point win against a dysfunctional squad missing their best player is nice. However, the problems remain.

1. Rondo can't shoot. Not from three, not from outside of 15 feet, and not from the free throw line. After another season with no visible progress whatsoever, I think it's time to accept that he is what he is at this point.
2. No go-to scoring in the starting lineup.
3. No players that can create reliably create their own shot in the clutch.

Sure, it seems that unlike last season, we no longer have to play guys that are not NBA caliber players at this stage of their careers (e.g. Pressey, Wallace), but that's only moderately reassuring.
1. Stevens seems to have devised a lineup in which Rondo's lack of shooting isn't a huge problem. For the majority of the game yesterday they played him with at least 3 above average 3 point shooters. If Sullinger, Olynyk, Green, Thornton, Bradley and Turner can knock down 3's at an above average clip, Rondo's lack of shooting becomes significantly less of a big deal.

2/3. Two and three are essentially the same because the end of the game is when you need a go to cluch scorer. The hope is with the offense and the shooting that the floor is spaced enough to get clutch buckets by running the offense (similar to how the Spurs score in the clutch). Last night their 3 point shooting and spacing allowed a bunch of easy buckets in the pick and roll. I'd always rather have a layup in the pick and roll or an open 3 off penetration over a contested shot from a go to scorer in the clutch. However, when they needed a bucket last night they seemed to rely on matchups (giving the ball to Sully in the post or letting Green create on the wing) but I think you will see the ball go to either Green, Rondo or Sully for clutch/go to scorer shot creation.
The Spurs have Duncan, Ginobili, and Tony Parker. Their ability to score, in the clutch or otherwise, is just a tad different.

If you think you'd get clutch scoring by giving the ball to Rondo (who's not going to give you a long-distance shot or 2 scored free throws with any sort of reliability) and spreading the floor, prepare to lose most of the close games we play in.

As for yesterday, Sullinger worked against the likes of Mason Plumlee and Jerome Jordan, and Green was 4 for 10. That is all.
Not saying we have the same players as the Spurs, just that the idea of scoring by running your offense instead of just giving the ball to your clutch scorer is a viable strategy.

Mason Plumlee is a good enough defender that he made the national team based on his defense and energy.

Jeff Green isn't a world beater but he was a top 50 player in the NBA in clutch scoring last year.

While they might not be great in the clutch, I think their defense and solid offense will allow them to break even in close games this year.

It is a pretty lazy argument to say oh well this team doesn't have a great go to scorer so it can't be better than people think. There are so many facets of the game besides go to scoring. For example our play in the clutch will not just be a function of clutch scoring but clutch scoring defense, which with Bradley, Smart, and Rondo I think will be very good.
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Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2014, 02:22:22 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Some people might say a lazy argument would be throwing out arguable rankings like 'clutch' with no citations.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2014, 02:26:34 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Some people might say a lazy argument would be throwing out arguable rankings like 'clutch' with no citations.
My bad http://www.82games.com/1314/CSORT11.HTM
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Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2014, 02:31:05 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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That's fine, the only thing I'm taking issue with is with your assertion of "no visible progress" which is flat out wrong.
Yesterday, I saw short jump shots which rattled in and didn't look particularly smooth or consistent coming out of his hand, I saw a horrible three-pointer that he banked in, and 4 missed free throws.

I realize it's one game, and that he's dealing with an off-hand issue, but I don't see progress as compared to recent years.
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Re: We are going to be better than people think
« Reply #149 on: October 30, 2014, 02:33:11 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Some people might say a lazy argument would be throwing out arguable rankings like 'clutch' with no citations.
My bad http://www.82games.com/1314/CSORT11.HTM
35% from the field, with 25% from three in the process. Color me unimpressed.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."