Author Topic: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense  (Read 8142 times)

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Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2014, 11:18:42 AM »

Offline JBcat

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How many true NBA centers are there anymore? The definition of the position  has totally changed from what it used to be. We look at a guy like Dwight Howard, the best Center in the league... and he'd probably be playing PF in the late 90s because he has absolutely no post moves, not to mention that he's the same size and build as Karl Malone. That's what the league's best C looks like now. The whole point is that if you use the model of the Spurs and Heatles from the last 3 years, the 4 is a spread player and the 5 can be undersized without being any liability. Since the top 3 bigmen on the Celtics are all spread and undersized, why wouldnt they be interchangeable.

I think there are enough of them out there just hardly any at the elite level.  Off of the top of my head all legit centers are:

Brooks Lopez
The Raptors center( can't spell his name)
P Gasol or Noah can be considered a center
Hibbert
L Sanders
Drummond even arguably Monroe
Vuvicic
Gortat
Al Jefferson
Al Horford
Howard
Miles Plumlee
Kanter or Favors
Bogut
Asik
Pekovic
Cousins
Chandler
M Gasol
Duncan (playing mostly center now)
Jordan

All of these could be considered legit 5's and give us trouble.

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2014, 12:03:44 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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It doesn't really matter that much on the offense end - but we need someone who can play the 5, legitimately, on D.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Unfortunately, Danny and Brad seem to think 4s and 5s are interchangeable on D as well.
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Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2014, 12:40:48 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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How many true NBA centers are there anymore? The definition of the position  has totally changed from what it used to be. We look at a guy like Dwight Howard, the best Center in the league... and he'd probably be playing PF in the late 90s because he has absolutely no post moves, not to mention that he's the same size and build as Karl Malone. That's what the league's best C looks like now. The whole point is that if you use the model of the Spurs and Heatles from the last 3 years, the 4 is a spread player and the 5 can be undersized without being any liability. Since the top 3 bigmen on the Celtics are all spread and undersized, why wouldnt they be interchangeable.

I think there are enough of them out there just hardly any at the elite level.  Off of the top of my head all legit centers are:

Brooks Lopez
The Raptors center( can't spell his name)
P Gasol or Noah can be considered a center
Hibbert
L Sanders
Drummond even arguably Monroe
Vuvicic
Gortat
Al Jefferson
Al Horford
Howard
Miles Plumlee
Kanter or Favors
Bogut
Asik
Pekovic
Cousins
Chandler
M Gasol
Duncan (playing mostly center now)
Jordan

All of these could be considered legit 5's and give us trouble.

You could also make the argument that roughly half of those guys are Power Forwards.  ;)
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Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2014, 12:42:19 PM »

Offline Fred Roberts

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How many true NBA centers are there anymore? The definition of the position  has totally changed from what it used to be. We look at a guy like Dwight Howard, the best Center in the league... and he'd probably be playing PF in the late 90s because he has absolutely no post moves, not to mention that he's the same size and build as Karl Malone. That's what the league's best C looks like now. The whole point is that if you use the model of the Spurs and Heatles from the last 3 years, the 4 is a spread player and the 5 can be undersized without being any liability. Since the top 3 bigmen on the Celtics are all spread and undersized, why wouldnt they be interchangeable.

I think there are enough of them out there just hardly any at the elite level.  Off of the top of my head all legit centers are:

Brooks Lopez
The Raptors center( can't spell his name)
P Gasol or Noah can be considered a center
Hibbert
L Sanders
Drummond even arguably Monroe
Vuvicic
Gortat
Al Jefferson
Al Horford
Howard
Miles Plumlee
Kanter or Favors
Bogut
Asik
Pekovic
Cousins
Chandler
M Gasol
Duncan (playing mostly center now)
Jordan

All of these could be considered legit 5's and give us trouble.

I'd exclude Favors, Horford and Al Jefferson from this list. Those are guys that should be 4's playing at center. They happen to be good, but they can be guarded by a legit 4. The others I agree with.

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2014, 01:38:15 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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How many true NBA centers are there anymore? The definition of the position  has totally changed from what it used to be. We look at a guy like Dwight Howard, the best Center in the league... and he'd probably be playing PF in the late 90s because he has absolutely no post moves, not to mention that he's the same size and build as Karl Malone. That's what the league's best C looks like now. The whole point is that if you use the model of the Spurs and Heatles from the last 3 years, the 4 is a spread player and the 5 can be undersized without being any liability. Since the top 3 bigmen on the Celtics are all spread and undersized, why wouldnt they be interchangeable.

I think there are enough of them out there just hardly any at the elite level.  Off of the top of my head all legit centers are:

Brooks Lopez
The Raptors center( can't spell his name)
P Gasol or Noah can be considered a center
Hibbert
L Sanders
Drummond even arguably Monroe
Vuvicic
Gortat
Al Jefferson
Al Horford
Howard
Miles Plumlee
Kanter or Favors
Bogut
Asik
Pekovic
Cousins
Chandler
M Gasol
Duncan (playing mostly center now)
Jordan

All of these could be considered legit 5's and give us trouble.

I'd exclude Favors, Horford and Al Jefferson from this list. Those are guys that should be 4's playing at center. They happen to be good, but they can be guarded by a legit 4. The others I agree with.

Yeah, I'd second that modification and conclusion.
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Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2014, 02:44:24 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Translation....

We are going to continue to get killed in the paint until we find a legitimate big man.

Based on the preseason, I'm not seeing any indication that we are going to get "killed in the paint."
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SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2014, 04:22:49 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Translation....

We are going to continue to get killed in the paint until we find a legitimate big man.

Based on the preseason, I'm not seeing any indication that we are going to get "killed in the paint."
Based on the preseason, it seems that the Celtics front court will be able to hold their own against second- and third-string players.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2014, 04:48:29 PM »

Offline greece66

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Translation....

We are going to continue to get killed in the paint until we find a legitimate big man.

Based on the preseason, I'm not seeing any indication that we are going to get "killed in the paint."
Based on the preseason, it seems that the Celtics front court will be able to hold their own against second- and third-string players.
Stevens is making a virtue of necessity. Yet, there are some advantages in playing without a pure Center. Obradovic played many years in the Euroleague without a Center and he was fine.

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2014, 05:23:23 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Stevens is making a virtue of necessity. Yet, there are some advantages in playing without a pure Center. Obradovic played many years in the Euroleague without a Center and he was fine.
What Obradovic did in a league without a defensive three second rule where players generally lack extraordinary athleticism (or size, for that matter) is not particularly relevant.

Stevens is obviously working with what he has. But the fact that the team can't field a better center than Olynyk or Sullinger will never be a virtue.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2014, 05:40:49 PM »

Offline greece66

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Stevens is making a virtue of necessity. Yet, there are some advantages in playing without a pure Center. Obradovic played many years in the Euroleague without a Center and he was fine.
What Obradovic did in a league without a defensive three second rule where players generally lack extraordinary athleticism (or size, for that matter) is not particularly relevant.

Stevens is obviously working with what he has. But the fact that the team can't field a better center than Olynyk or Sullinger will never be a virtue.
I wouldn't be so dismissive of such a great coach. In any case, there are plenty of teams in the NBA too that play without a Center. Reason is to get a legit Center you have to pay too a high a price. And you might be better off investing your money in other positions.
Personally I like a lot how Stevens uses Sullynyk in the offense. Victory-wise it will not get us much, but these two guys are developing in a direction that maximizes their respective strengths.

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2014, 05:41:25 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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obviously stevens doesn't have many good options at center. but if this is him telling us we don't need a center? then get rid of him now.

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2014, 05:45:02 PM »

Offline greece66

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obviously stevens doesn't have many good options at center. but if this is him telling us we don't need a center? then get rid of him now.
IMHO whether we get a legitimate Center or not is for Ainge not Stevens to decide.

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2014, 06:10:05 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Translation....

We are going to continue to get killed in the paint until we find a legitimate big man.

Based on the preseason, I'm not seeing any indication that we are going to get "killed in the paint."
Based on the preseason, it seems that the Celtics front court will be able to hold their own against second- and third-string players.

Like Jonas Valanciunas and Mason Plumlee?
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2014, 06:15:06 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Stevens is making a virtue of necessity. Yet, there are some advantages in playing without a pure Center. Obradovic played many years in the Euroleague without a Center and he was fine.
What Obradovic did in a league without a defensive three second rule where players generally lack extraordinary athleticism (or size, for that matter) is not particularly relevant.

Stevens is obviously working with what he has. But the fact that the team can't field a better center than Olynyk or Sullinger will never be a virtue.
I wouldn't be so dismissive of such a great coach. In any case, there are plenty of teams in the NBA too that play without a Center. Reason is to get a legit Center you have to pay too a high a price. And you might be better off investing your money in other positions.
Personally I like a lot how Stevens uses Sullynyk in the offense. Victory-wise it will not get us much, but these two guys are developing in a direction that maximizes their respective strengths.
It's a different league. The coaching qualities of Obradovic are not the topic of debate here.

Also, while people insist on lamenting the "lack of real centers in the NBA", the truth is that most teams do have legit centers. That is, players that are big and strong enough to defend the 5 position in the NBA. The fact that most of those players are now skilled enough to not have to depend on brute force on the offensive end is a completely different topic.

Anyhow, here's a depth chart for all NBA teams: http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/depth-charts/nba.aspx. In my mind, there's overwhelming evidence that the average NBA starting center is bigger than Jared Sullinger, and more athletic than Kelly Olynyk.
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Re: 4s and 5s Are Interchangeable in the Celtics Offense
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2014, 06:21:47 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Translation....

We are going to continue to get killed in the paint until we find a legitimate big man.

Based on the preseason, I'm not seeing any indication that we are going to get "killed in the paint."
Based on the preseason, it seems that the Celtics front court will be able to hold their own against second- and third-string players.

Like Jonas Valanciunas and Mason Plumlee?

Against 18 minutes of preseason Valanciunas, maybe.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.