Author Topic: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron  (Read 13181 times)

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Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2014, 02:05:33 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I see Love and Kyrie both dropping below 20 ppg. They were able to put up pretty killer stats on  unimpressive teams - much like Allen's 26 ppg before he joined Pierce and KG. This isn't imply that they can't win a championship (it's hard not to see the Cavs as at least co-favorites), just that Love and Kyrie aren't the super-duper stars that people may have thought when this team was assembled.

Basically, Love and Kyrie are both about to go through a sharp learning curve - hopefully, for their sakes, they are up for it.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2014, 02:25:05 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Unless he continues to put up the same numbers in Cleveland, and improves his defence (to be at least tolerable), and they win a Ring.  Then maybe he'll get at least a small amount of credit.  Though probably not.

So Love should improve his defense to... the level it's currently at?

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2014, 02:37:21 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Think "the early 90's" but a decade later  ;D

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

If by, "ball movement based," you mean pick and roll based, then we agree.  As for the teams you listed, 1).  Did that Pistons team even have an offense?  I've seen their games and they were absolutely atrocious.  It was all pick and roll and holding the ball for 23 seconds before throwing up a wild shot and getting the offensive rebound.  I'm talking about the 2004 team, btw, as you'd expect.  2).  Our Celtics team was nothing but pick and roll and the occasional post up for KG, as well as a few screens for Ray Allen, and, honestly, despite how much I loved that club, they were hard to watch on offense, especially in the playoffs.  Take Game 7 vs the Cavs, for example - every possession in that game was a high pick and roll with Pierce and Garnett on one end, followed by a high pick and roll of Lebron and Z on the other end.  It was boring, and, quite honestly, pathetic.  We were lucky to win that series with our, "offense."  3).  The Spurs and Mavs, but particularly the Spurs, are nothing more than a high pick and roll with Parker and Duncan, or Ginobili and Duncan, because the latter hardly posts up anymore - even in the playoffs.  So, all in all, you guys are probably right about the iso-stuff, but I'm just tired of the pick and roll.  Stevens', "read and react," offense is anything but.  It's non-stop pick and roll, and, unsurprisingly, it's horrible.

 

There's a reason the pick and roll has been a basketball staple for a very, very long time.  It's because it's effective, and when played well, it can be a joy to watch. 

I'm not sure exactly what it is you are yearning for?  Is it more post up offense?  The triangle?  Isolation plays?

Exactly. The fact that an offense uses the pick and roll doesn't mean it's a pick and roll offense -- the kind that Mike D'Antoni pioneered in Phoenix, where you're looking at 50-60 of them a game.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2014, 03:57:36 PM »

Offline RyNye

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It's also silly to think of "pick-and-roll" as if it were just a single play or move. For example, saying that the most recent Spurs teams were "nothing more than a high pick and roll" indicates to me that they barely watched that team, or if they did they weren't paying enough attention.

"Pick-and-roll" is just an action on the court, that is used in dozens of different ways across hundreds of unique plays used by various teams. Every single team in the league uses pick-and-rolls in some fashion. Even the most basic possible pick-and-roll, you have endless variations, depending on what the other 3 players are doing, whether the player setting the screen sets a hard pick, slips the screen, flips the screen, rolls and passes, rolls and scores, sets a screen for a second player, etc. etc. Heck, most plays that begin with a pick-and-roll are using it as a feint for a secondary action. Boston fans should recognize this: it was one of Doc River's pet plays. A Rondo/KG or Pierce/KG pick and roll at the top while Ray Allen runs against a secondary screen at the baseline. The Rondo/KG pick and roll is designed only to attract player's attentions while Ray Allen sneaks open.

Teams like the Spurs do even more sophisticated things. For example, running double pick-and-rolls, where Ginobli/Duncan run a pick-and-roll up at the top of the arc, but Duncan slips the screen and sets a secondary pick for Parker at the elbow, and Parker curls around the pick into the paint, either scoring or passing off back to Ginobli.

Not only does every single team in the league run multiple pick-and-rolls per game, but most of those teams use pick-and-rolls in different ways in different plays with different end goals and contingency plays. And this isn't even taking pick-and-pops into account. I think it's useless to talk about an offense based on the "pick-and-roll" without also considering how and in what contexts they're used. The Miami Heat used Dwyane Wade/Lebron James pick-and-rolls to force switches and create mismatchs for one or another player to take in an iso or post-up. The Spurs use pick-and-rolls for misdirection and to initiative sophisticated multiple-action multiple-pass sets. The Clippers use pick-and-rolls to give Blake Griffin room and momentum to improvise in the paint (either with post moves, passing, or pure athleticism). The Golden Warriors use pick-and-rolls to give Curry open off-the-dribble three-pointers. All of these are variations of a basic pick-and-roll, but are all incredibly different basketball situations.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2014, 04:12:30 PM »

Offline soap07

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Sounds like Lebron James is every bit the prima donna he comes across as.  The vibe I get is that any team Lebron is on basically needs to mould their entire gameplay to him, and everyone else on the team (no matter how high profile) basically needs to take a back seat and do what they are told.

Would you mind posting the exact quote(s) from anything Bosh said that alluded to LeBron being a prima donna?

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2014, 04:40:24 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Sounds like Lebron James is every bit the prima donna he comes across as.  The vibe I get is that any team Lebron is on basically needs to mould their entire gameplay to him, and everyone else on the team (no matter how high profile) basically needs to take a back seat and do what they are told.

Would you mind posting the exact quote(s) from anything Bosh said that alluded to LeBron being a prima donna?

He's the resident Hot Sports Take provider.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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This thread title is click-bait. Bosh says nothing negative about Lebron. He just talks about going from the focus of a team's offense to a complimentary piece and how difficult it is.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2014, 05:28:41 PM »

Offline Who

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I think LeBron should be the one to adjust his role the most rather than Kyrie or K-Love.

That LeBron should take a step back this season as a scorer and concentrate more on being a facilitator. LeBron is playing with the best scoring PG in all of basketball in Kyrie Irving and the 2nd best PF in the league offensively speaking in Kevin Love. LeBron is the most well-rounded player in the league and should adjust his game to his teammates and allow them to play to their best strengths instead of forcing his teammates to adjust their (lesser) games to him.

Become the ultimate facilitator in the league today. In the lineage of the great Bill Russell, Bill Walton and Magic Johnson. Ultimate team stars. Guys who focused on team contributions and maximizing the players around them instead being a more typical score first star player.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2014, 05:32:57 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Think "the early 90's" but a decade later  ;D

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

If by, "ball movement based," you mean pick and roll based, then we agree.  As for the teams you listed, 1).  Did that Pistons team even have an offense?  I've seen their games and they were absolutely atrocious.  It was all pick and roll and holding the ball for 23 seconds before throwing up a wild shot and getting the offensive rebound.  I'm talking about the 2004 team, btw, as you'd expect.  2).  Our Celtics team was nothing but pick and roll and the occasional post up for KG, as well as a few screens for Ray Allen, and, honestly, despite how much I loved that club, they were hard to watch on offense, especially in the playoffs.  Take Game 7 vs the Cavs, for example - every possession in that game was a high pick and roll with Pierce and Garnett on one end, followed by a high pick and roll of Lebron and Z on the other end.  It was boring, and, quite honestly, pathetic.  We were lucky to win that series with our, "offense."  3).  The Spurs and Mavs, but particularly the Spurs, are nothing more than a high pick and roll with Parker and Duncan, or Ginobili and Duncan, because the latter hardly posts up anymore - even in the playoffs.  So, all in all, you guys are probably right about the iso-stuff, but I'm just tired of the pick and roll.  Stevens', "read and react," offense is anything but.  It's non-stop pick and roll, and, unsurprisingly, it's horrible.
The NBA changed the rules to add more ball movement. Remember Barkley's isos? Of Mark Jackson backing people down in the post for 15 seconds? Rules were changed to stop those types of iso plays. If there are less ways to do isos, you will see a lower percentage of plays being isos. It is easy to forget how ugly basketball became in the 90s with the hacking on defense and the isos.

While pick & roll is a staple of NBA offense, we should keep in mind that there are 5 players out on the floor and the 2 or 3 guys not around the ball can have varying degrees of activity. When people think of San Antonio, they think of all 5 guys moving around. They also think of a lot of people touching the ball and having the chance to make decisions. The converse of this would be, for example, Rondo deciding who will shoot by holding the ball himself until someone is in position for a shot. Ball movement means trusting players to make the right plays. This is different from having guys play off of start players and being ready to shoot when the start player draws 3 defenders and kicks out.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2014, 05:35:34 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I think LeBron should be the one to adjust his role the most rather than Kyrie or K-Love.

That LeBron should take a step back this season as a scorer and concentrate more on being a facilitator. LeBron is playing with the best scoring PG in all of basketball in Kyrie Irving and the 2nd best PF in the league offensively speaking in Kevin Love. LeBron is the most well-rounded player in the league and should adjust his game to his teammates and allow them to play to their best strengths instead of forcing his teammates to adjust their (lesser) games to him.

Become the ultimate facilitator in the league today. In the lineage of the great Bill Russell, Bill Walton and Magic Johnson. Ultimate team stars. Guys who focused on team contributions and maximizing the players around them instead being a more typical score first star player.
Lebron is usually happy to facilitate. I expect to see him setting up those guys really well. I also expect Kyrie to enjoy penetrating with the threat of a lob to Lebron or a kickout to Love (that pulls a big out of the lane).

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2014, 06:30:37 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Think "the early 90's" but a decade later  ;D

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

If by, "ball movement based," you mean pick and roll based, then we agree.  As for the teams you listed, 1).  Did that Pistons team even have an offense?  I've seen their games and they were absolutely atrocious.  It was all pick and roll and holding the ball for 23 seconds before throwing up a wild shot and getting the offensive rebound.  I'm talking about the 2004 team, btw, as you'd expect.  2).  Our Celtics team was nothing but pick and roll and the occasional post up for KG, as well as a few screens for Ray Allen, and, honestly, despite how much I loved that club, they were hard to watch on offense, especially in the playoffs.  Take Game 7 vs the Cavs, for example - every possession in that game was a high pick and roll with Pierce and Garnett on one end, followed by a high pick and roll of Lebron and Z on the other end.  It was boring, and, quite honestly, pathetic.  We were lucky to win that series with our, "offense."  3).  The Spurs and Mavs, but particularly the Spurs, are nothing more than a high pick and roll with Parker and Duncan, or Ginobili and Duncan, because the latter hardly posts up anymore - even in the playoffs.  So, all in all, you guys are probably right about the iso-stuff, but I'm just tired of the pick and roll.  Stevens', "read and react," offense is anything but.  It's non-stop pick and roll, and, unsurprisingly, it's horrible.

 

There's a reason the pick and roll has been a basketball staple for a very, very long time.  It's because it's effective, and when played well, it can be a joy to watch. 

I'm not sure exactly what it is you are yearning for?  Is it more post up offense?  The triangle?  Isolation plays?

Definitely more post ups with cutters, backdoor plays, splits, etc.  I guess that that's just my taste lol.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2014, 06:36:10 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I wonder if it was frustrating for him getting rings he would have never led Toronto to. Hey Bosh. If you feel like it was frustrating playing with Bron then maybe you shoulda thought about that BEFORE you decided to be your own GMs and agents and collude.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2014, 06:38:42 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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It's also silly to think of "pick-and-roll" as if it were just a single play or move. For example, saying that the most recent Spurs teams were "nothing more than a high pick and roll" indicates to me that they barely watched that team, or if they did they weren't paying enough attention.

"Pick-and-roll" is just an action on the court, that is used in dozens of different ways across hundreds of unique plays used by various teams. Every single team in the league uses pick-and-rolls in some fashion. Even the most basic possible pick-and-roll, you have endless variations, depending on what the other 3 players are doing, whether the player setting the screen sets a hard pick, slips the screen, flips the screen, rolls and passes, rolls and scores, sets a screen for a second player, etc. etc. Heck, most plays that begin with a pick-and-roll are using it as a feint for a secondary action. Boston fans should recognize this: it was one of Doc River's pet plays. A Rondo/KG or Pierce/KG pick and roll at the top while Ray Allen runs against a secondary screen at the baseline. The Rondo/KG pick and roll is designed only to attract player's attentions while Ray Allen sneaks open.

Teams like the Spurs do even more sophisticated things. For example, running double pick-and-rolls, where Ginobli/Duncan run a pick-and-roll up at the top of the arc, but Duncan slips the screen and sets a secondary pick for Parker at the elbow, and Parker curls around the pick into the paint, either scoring or passing off back to Ginobli.

Not only does every single team in the league run multiple pick-and-rolls per game, but most of those teams use pick-and-rolls in different ways in different plays with different end goals and contingency plays. And this isn't even taking pick-and-pops into account. I think it's useless to talk about an offense based on the "pick-and-roll" without also considering how and in what contexts they're used. The Miami Heat used Dwyane Wade/Lebron James pick-and-rolls to force switches and create mismatchs for one or another player to take in an iso or post-up. The Spurs use pick-and-rolls for misdirection and to initiative sophisticated multiple-action multiple-pass sets. The Clippers use pick-and-rolls to give Blake Griffin room and momentum to improvise in the paint (either with post moves, passing, or pure athleticism). The Golden Warriors use pick-and-rolls to give Curry open off-the-dribble three-pointers. All of these are variations of a basic pick-and-roll, but are all incredibly different basketball situations.

No, I've seen plenty of Spurs games over the years, and every possession is one pick and roll, two pick and roll, three pick and roll four, 5 pick and roll, 6 pick and roll, 7 pick and roll more ;D.  I don't care how many variations of it are used, because, as you pointed out, it's all based off of the same play, and I just like basketball where guys are moving all the time instead of standing around and watching while two guys do all the work.  The play does have it's advantages, such as gaining low post position, and, imo, is especially effective in transition, but I would like to see how many points any of these teams could score if that play was outlawed or something for a game or two, just as an experiment. 

In watching the Clippers play last year, btw, I was reminded of just how much I don't miss that, "offense," lol ;D.

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2014, 06:44:57 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Think "the early 90's" but a decade later  ;D

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

If by, "ball movement based," you mean pick and roll based, then we agree.  As for the teams you listed, 1).  Did that Pistons team even have an offense?  I've seen their games and they were absolutely atrocious.  It was all pick and roll and holding the ball for 23 seconds before throwing up a wild shot and getting the offensive rebound.  I'm talking about the 2004 team, btw, as you'd expect.  2).  Our Celtics team was nothing but pick and roll and the occasional post up for KG, as well as a few screens for Ray Allen, and, honestly, despite how much I loved that club, they were hard to watch on offense, especially in the playoffs.  Take Game 7 vs the Cavs, for example - every possession in that game was a high pick and roll with Pierce and Garnett on one end, followed by a high pick and roll of Lebron and Z on the other end.  It was boring, and, quite honestly, pathetic.  We were lucky to win that series with our, "offense."  3).  The Spurs and Mavs, but particularly the Spurs, are nothing more than a high pick and roll with Parker and Duncan, or Ginobili and Duncan, because the latter hardly posts up anymore - even in the playoffs.  So, all in all, you guys are probably right about the iso-stuff, but I'm just tired of the pick and roll.  Stevens', "read and react," offense is anything but.  It's non-stop pick and roll, and, unsurprisingly, it's horrible.
The NBA changed the rules to add more ball movement. Remember Barkley's isos? Of Mark Jackson backing people down in the post for 15 seconds? Rules were changed to stop those types of iso plays. If there are less ways to do isos, you will see a lower percentage of plays being isos. It is easy to forget how ugly basketball became in the 90s with the hacking on defense and the isos.

While pick & roll is a staple of NBA offense, we should keep in mind that there are 5 players out on the floor and the 2 or 3 guys not around the ball can have varying degrees of activity. When people think of San Antonio, they think of all 5 guys moving around. They also think of a lot of people touching the ball and having the chance to make decisions. The converse of this would be, for example, Rondo deciding who will shoot by holding the ball himself until someone is in position for a shot. Ball movement means trusting players to make the right plays. This is different from having guys play off of start players and being ready to shoot when the start player draws 3 defenders and kicks out.

Personally, I think that that is the dumbest rule in the game today.  Just because one guy backs a guy down for a long time doesn't mean that players should now only have 5 seconds to make their move.  It's ridiculous, imo.  Players should be allowed to post a guy up for 15 seconds if they want, imo.  Jackson wasn't even a marquee player, so it's not like when the dunk was outlawed.  I just think that it's stupid.  Btw, all you hear is how guys have, "to trust each other," lol.  Do these guys have trust issues or something, because that never used to be a pet phrase or even an issue.  Oh, never mind, that was a Michael Jordan problem, so of course it has to be good for basketball (sarcasm).

Re: Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2014, 06:45:57 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I guess that all I'm saying is, don't you guys like variety? ;D