Chris Bosh says that it was 'frustrating' playing with Lebron

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Bosh may never have won a ring if it wasn't for LeBron, so perhaps he should think about that.

What's truly frustrating is watching a 6-11 guy never get within 5 feet of the hoop on offense.

[loco_91]

I think Love is such a talented offensive player that he will get his looks. Bosh is more of a two-way player, so it made sense for him to focus more on D and to take a complementary role next to LeBron and Wade. Love isn't quite on Lebron's level offensively but he is pretty close, and for a given matchup it might make sense to give him more shots. Even when the offense is operating through LeBron, he should get way more open spot-up 3pt attempts than he's used to; he could have an epically efficient season from 3pt land.

To me it's a bigger question mark what Kyrie's role will be, as he hasn't proven that he can thrive without the ball in his hands. And the really big questionmark is how this team will gel defensively.

[Beat LA]

I think Love is such a talented offensive player that he will get his looks. Bosh is more of a two-way player, so it made sense for him to focus more on D and to take a complementary role next to LeBron and Wade. Love isn't quite on Lebron's level offensively but he is pretty close, and for a given matchup it might make sense to give him more shots. Even when the offense is operating through LeBron, he should get way more open spot-up 3pt attempts than he's used to; he could have an epically efficient season from 3pt land.

To me it's a bigger question mark what Kyrie's role will be, as he hasn't proven that he can thrive without the ball in his hands. And the really big questionmark is how this team will gel defensively.

When compared to Love, perhaps, lol, but Bosh was never a dominant rebounder, shot-blocker, or defensive player.  Ironically, given at how he continued to drift further and further away from the basket over the years, you could make the argument that Bosh was essentially turning into a poor man's Kevin Love, haha, except, you know, without the post play, relentless rebounding, consistent 3-point shooting, or, especially, passing, and that's what could make the Love-Lebron duo an excellent offensive tandem.  Defensively, not so much  

As for Irving, he's more of a scorer than a point guard, who also happens to be an excellent shooter and an assassin in the 4th quarter, even though he's a lousy defender up until this point in his career.  Therefore, letting Lebron be the play-maker shouldn't be anywhere near as problematic as it was between Lebron and Wade.  Who's going to help off of Kyrie?  Offensively, I think that this trio could be much better than the one Lebron was a part of in Miami, honestly. but we'll see.  There will obviously be an adjustment period.  For instance, who is the 3rd banana?  My money is on Irving, whether he likes it or not lol, but that's nothing to complain about, imo. 

[Beat LA]

I'm not a Lebron fan, but I don't really see any anti-Lebron sentiment in Bosh's comments. Basically he is just venting at how frustrating it can be to have to sacrifice parts of your game for the good of the team, which is normal, especially when you are younger.

It was much easier for Pierce, KG, and Ray to do it because they were all past their peaks when they joined up and had already built their individual legacies.

I don't agree.  Yes, Pierce, KG, and Ray were all at, or near the end of, their respective primes, but the reasons why they played so well together was 1).  because of Garnett.  His team-first, self-sacrificing attitude and play made passing contagious among our guys, and 2). and this might be the most important factor as to why our guys really clicked - their styles of play complemented each other so well.  We had a slasher in Pierce, a shooter in Ray, and a dominant post-player in Garnett.  Additionally, they were all excellent passers and unselfish players, but, more importantly, especially when you compare them to Miami's trio, they were all GREAT SHOOTERS.  From any range.  Pierce still has the best midrange game in the league and is also an excellent 3-point shooter, so you couldn't help off of him, let alone Ray Allen, and Garnett, when he first arrived, I was concerned that he took so many midrange shots instead of posting up, but my god, did he ever miss one lol?  That's the difference.  Miami's 3 never complimented each other, and you could make the argument that Bosh was the best shooter of the group.  He was also the only one who could play without the ball, while Wade and Lebron practically took turns on each possession because they couldn't do anything else.  Why else did the Heat assemble so many shooters on their team?  Wade used to be a good midrange player, but he was never on Pierce's level, and only last year did Lebron's jumper look greatly improved from any distance.  Still, if one of them had the ball, it was easy to double team the other guy because that guy who was left uncovered (whether it was Lebron or Wade) didn't have the range, ability, or, especially, the consistency to make the defense pay for helping off of him.  They did improve at moving off the ball, particularly in their last 2 years together, but I just never got the sense that their respective styles of play ever clicked like it did for our guys.

Regarding Miami, yeah I agree. Wade and Lebron were actually too similar to each other in style in that they are both better doing the slashing game. Neither could be a complementary spot-up shooter to the other one, so they had to have Mike Miller, etc for that role. Pierce, Allen, Garnett was a better mix, much like Parish, Bird, McHale. Of course in that case they also had Ainge as second spot-up shooter and a GREAT point guard in DJ. So, in spite of what Pat Riley thinks of Lebron leaving, that team was not built for epic greatness

You know, as someone who has achieved such tremendous success over the course of his career, it's kind of surprising that Riley didn't foresee the problems of having two non-shooting ball hogs on the court at the same time.  Perhaps he was trying to create the next Jordan-Pippen wing trio defensively, because for a few years, Lebron and Wade were quicker than the pass, which is why their defense was so formidable.  Now, is that because teams today don't swing the ball nearly as effectively as in the past, therefore making Lebron's and Wade's jobs easier?  I would say yes, but that's because of the offensive era that the league is in right now, and has been since the bad boys won their titles - thanks guys (sarcasm)!  I'm not trying to diminish their accomplishments, but today's offenses are pathetic, quite honestly.  It's just a nauseating amount of pick and roll, because apparently that's all that these guys know how to do nowadays. 

In regards to the teams of the 80s that you mentioned, yes, DJ was a great point guard, but his jumper was suspect, at best, and he certainly didn't have 3-point range, which allowed Riley to get away with his guys never getting out of the paint.  They played illegal defense for a decade, lol.  As for Ainge, I always thought that he was a streak shooter, but I wasn't around then, so you'll have to fill me in on that.  He certainly wasn't Byron Scott or Joe Dumars, let alone Mark Price (he would have single-handedly destroyed LA's defense if he had been a Celtic, just like Jeff Hornacek decimated Riley in 1990, and that's just with his shooting.  He was such a great passer and excellent defender.).  I will say this, though - what made those teams unbelievable was their passing ability, with Bird setting the tone.  How many teams can have a starting lineup where 3 of their starters have at least 6 assists every game?  I've looked over a lot of old box scores, and it's insane   The passing ability of DJ, Ainge, and Bird, was amazing, and Parish was pretty good, too.  Even McHale drastically improved over the course of his career.  I miss that kind of basketball.  Intelligent basketball, where passing becomes contagious.  Sigh.

Sorry for the tangent.  I think that Deng will actually be a better fit with Wade and Bosh than Lebron was, at least offensively, because he can actually shoot lol.

[D.o.s.]

That's a statement (above) that looks good on paper but has no bearing in reality, at least not until 2005 or so.

The offensive schemes of, say, the post Bad Boys era have little in common with the constant pick and roll that was popularized by the Phoenix Suns and the second wave of the San Antonio Spurs (post Robinson). There's an entire era, give or take 15 years, between the Pistons and what you're describing -- the constant pick and roll. The early aughts and mid to late 90's were heavily isolation based games, which apparently just don't exist in this retelling.

You don't think you 'miss' a certain style of basketball, you're misremembering it because you were too young to experience it meaningfully in person, is my guess.

[Diggles]

Ray Allen and KG both "fell off" too.  Are they human, or just doing what it takes to help the team.   It will be normal and expected his numbers to drop.   I don't understand whats wrong with that. 

A very interesting article here, with Chris Bosh giving some feedback on what it's like to play with Lebron James.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2225639-kevin-love-faces-unsettling-transition-alongside-lebron-says-chris-bosh

I've been saying ever since the Cleveland trade that Kevin Love is going to look much more 'human' now that he's in Cleveland.  I predicted that his numbers would fall off very similar to how Chris Bosh's did (remember he was a 24/12 guy in Toronto) and that Love will probably be more like an 18/9 guy from now on.

I find this article interesting because not only does it suggest that this is likely to be the case, but it also gives some insight into why. 

Sounds like Lebron James is every bit the prima donna he comes across as.  The vibe I get is that any team Lebron is on basically needs to mould their entire gameplay to him, and everyone else on the team (no matter how high profile) basically needs to take a back seat and do what they are told.

[BASS_THUMPER]

Talkin smack after the fact

makes bosh more of a busta in my eyes

[Beat LA]

That's a statement (above) that looks good on paper but has no bearing in reality, at least not until 2005 or so.

The offensive schemes of, say, the post Bad Boys era have little in common with the constant pick and roll that was popularized by the Phoenix Suns and the second wave of the San Antonio Spurs (post Robinson). There's an entire era, give or take 15 years, between the Pistons and what you're describing -- the constant pick and roll. The early aughts and mid to late 90's were heavily isolation based games, which apparently just don't exist in this retelling.

You don't think you 'miss' a certain style of basketball, you're misremembering it because you were too young to experience it meaningfully in person, is my guess.

No, I just miss classic basketball, and the only team that plays it nowadays is the UCONN Women.  Once the Bad Boys won, aside from Bird's and Magic's teams, everyone played follow the leader.  When Pat Riley took over in New York, and later in Miami, practically all they did was pick and roll and the occasional post up - that is, if any of the guards could even feed the post, lol.  Seriously, that's considered a skill now.  Insert facepalm here. 

I may not have been watching at the time, but I have seen many games from that era on YouTube, btw, so I'm not making this up.  No one moves without the ball anymore, which has made the job of a team's defense much easier, so what I'm saying is that all the little nuances and skills that were taken for granted in the 80s are practically nonexistent now, and the game has greatly suffered as a result, imo.  Whatever happened to back-door plays, taking advantages of mismatches, and exploiting foul trouble?  There is very little around-the-horn in today's game, as most possessions are nothing but a nauseating amount of pick and roll, which is only a two-man game.  Even Jerry Sloan, who coached the masters of that play, said that he preferred not to use it that much because it takes away from the other players, which is why his teams actually ran either the lowest or close to the lowest amount of pick and rolls per game.  I found that in some article a few years ago, but I don't remember what it was called.  Imo, the pick and roll is the most effective when used in transition on a hesitation fast break, because the defense isn't properly aligned and often times the guy with the ball can get right to the basket.  If you watched Jordan and Kobe play, I'd say about a third of their points in any given game came off of the transition pick and roll, so it is effective, but if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, teams are going to adjust to it.  I just think that it's a stupid way to play basketball.

Btw, what is, "the early aughts?"

[D.o.s.]

Think "the early 90's" but a decade later 

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

[Celtics18]

Think "the early 90's" but a decade later 

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

[Beat LA]

Think "the early 90's" but a decade later 

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

If by, "ball movement based," you mean pick and roll based, then we agree.  As for the teams you listed, 1).  Did that Pistons team even have an offense?  I've seen their games and they were absolutely atrocious.  It was all pick and roll and holding the ball for 23 seconds before throwing up a wild shot and getting the offensive rebound.  I'm talking about the 2004 team, btw, as you'd expect.  2).  Our Celtics team was nothing but pick and roll and the occasional post up for KG, as well as a few screens for Ray Allen, and, honestly, despite how much I loved that club, they were hard to watch on offense, especially in the playoffs.  Take Game 7 vs the Cavs, for example - every possession in that game was a high pick and roll with Pierce and Garnett on one end, followed by a high pick and roll of Lebron and Z on the other end.  It was boring, and, quite honestly, pathetic.  We were lucky to win that series with our, "offense."  3).  The Spurs and Mavs, but particularly the Spurs, are nothing more than a high pick and roll with Parker and Duncan, or Ginobili and Duncan, because the latter hardly posts up anymore - even in the playoffs.  So, all in all, you guys are probably right about the iso-stuff, but I'm just tired of the pick and roll.  Stevens', "read and react," offense is anything but.  It's non-stop pick and roll, and, unsurprisingly, it's horrible.

[crimson_stallion]

A very interesting article here, with Chris Bosh giving some feedback on what it's like to play with Lebron James.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2225639-kevin-love-faces-unsettling-transition-alongside-lebron-says-chris-bosh

I've been saying ever since the Cleveland trade that Kevin Love is going to look much more 'human' now that he's in Cleveland.  I predicted that his numbers would fall off very similar to how Chris Bosh's did (remember he was a 24/12 guy in Toronto) and that Love will probably be more like an 18/9 guy from now on.

I find this article interesting because not only does it suggest that this is likely to be the case, but it also gives some insight into why. 

Sounds like Lebron James is every bit the prima donna he comes across as.  The vibe I get is that any team Lebron is on basically needs to mould their entire gameplay to him, and everyone else on the team (no matter how high profile) basically needs to take a back seat and do what they are told.

Love is a much better shooter and rebounder than Bosh will ever be. Love's impact will be felt in other ways too., such as his exceptional outlet passes and his signature baby hook when he posts. Bosh often struggled to stay relevant on the court because his rebounding really fell off and he became primarily a glorified stretch 4.

Bosh averaged 24 points, 11 rebounds and 1 block a game in his final season with the Raptors, while also shooting 52 from the field, 36% from three and 80% from the line. 

If you read the comments from Bosh you will see that playing with Lebron basically forced him to accept a role as a 'stretch 4', hence explaining why his rebounding and inside scoring fell off so much after joining the Heat. 

Because Wade and Lebron were not great shooters, they needed Bosh to be the guy to step out and stretch the floor.  This will be no different really with Love out there.   

Bosh, at least to my eyes, also was (and is) a far better defensive player than Love, even though he's not an outstanding one.  Love is a horrible defensive player.  Bosh (with his length, height and athleticism) can play something that at least somewhat resembles defence.  Love is slow, has dinosaur arms (by NBA standards), has zero height advantage at his position, and has the defensive IQ of a brick.

Consider that Love in his best season so far shot 2 PPG more than Bosh but shot 0.4% worse from the field...offensively they were basically a wash. 

Also, consistency.  If you ignore the first two seasons for both guys...

Kevin Love in 4 seasons has averaged 20, 24, 19, 26 points per 36 minutes and shot 47%, 45%, 35%, 46%.

Chris Bosh averaged 20, 21, 22, 21, 24 and has shot 51%, 50%, 50%, 49%, 52%, 50%, 49%, 54%, 52%.

If you think Kevin Love is a superior player to Chris Bosh in his prime, you are very much mistaken.  Love is a better three point shooter and a better rebounder...Bosh was (and pretty much still is) better at everything else.

[D.o.s.]

I'd agree with that, although Love's a much better stretch 4 than Bosh was at the same age.

[crimson_stallion]

Ray Allen and KG both "fell off" too.  Are they human, or just doing what it takes to help the team.   It will be normal and expected his numbers to drop.   I don't understand whats wrong with that. 

In KG's finals season in Minnesota his per-36 minute stats were 20.5 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1.1 steals, 1.5 blocks, 47.6% FG and 83.5% FT.

In his first season in Boston (2008) his per-36 minute stats were 20.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.4 blocks, 54% FG and 80.1% FT.

Where is that dramatic drop-off?  There was none.  KG's minutes dropped from 39.4 MPG in Minnesota to 32.8 MPG in Boston...that's the only reason why his overall stats dropped.  He was every bit as productive as a #2 or #3 option in Boston as he was as a #1 option in Minnesota.     This to me is a clear indication of an elite basketball star, because it proves he will get his production no matter what the scenario - even when he isn't the central focus of the offense.

He did experience some drop-off in his second season in Boston, but he was also 32 years old at that point in time...about where you expect any NBA player to start dropping off a little. 

In Chris Bosh's case his playing time didn't drop off at all.  He played 36.1 MPG in Toronto (2009-10) and 36.3 MPG in Miami (2010-11). His final season in Toronto his per-36 minute stats were 23.9 points, 10.8 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.0 blocks, 51.8% FG and 79.7% FT.

In his first season with Miami Bosh's per-36 stats were 18.5 points, 8.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 0.8 steals, 0.6 blocks,49.6% FG and 81.5% FT. 

With the exception of steals and free throw percentage, his numbers dropped off significantly across the board despite the fact that his playing time.  This to me indicates one of two things:

1) Bosh was a "good player on a bad team" type guy.  He was undoubtedly an excellent player, but his statistical production was exaggerated by the fact that he was playing on a bad team, and so everything went through him.  As soon as he joined a team where he was no longer the #1 option, his number came back down to earth.

OR

2) LeBron was so obsessive about making everything work for him, that other players on his team needed to play outside of their comfort zone in order to tailor to his special needs. 

OR

3) Both of the above

I see Kevin Love as another guy in the Chris Bosh scenario.  I don't believe Love is an elite talent, not by any means.  I believe he is a very good talent, and a legit All-Star...but I don't think he is superstar material.  I think he's an All-Star player who was made to LOOK like a superstar because he played on a terrible team where everything went through him, and hence all of his statistical numbers have been highly elevated. 

I also think that with Lebron needing his space to drive, Kevin Love is going to be mostly limited to becoming a pure stretch 4 - doing little more than standing at the three point line and chucking up bricks at his standard 35%-36% rate.  Pulling him out away from the basket will also reduce his rebounding, as will the fact that he's now playing with Andersen Varejao, who is a very good rebounder (whereas he was pretty much the lone elite rebounder in Minny). 

I think Kevin Love as a player will be very much brought down earth in Cleveland.  When you're putting up 26/13 people tend to ignore your other deficiencies, such as your fairly average inside game and the fact that you are a major liability on defence.

Once his numbers are down to a (more human) 18/9 with a lower FG% (due to less touches inside) suddenly his production is no longer going to be impressive enough to offset his lack of athleticism and 'open door policy' defence.

Note that Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters are not exceptional defensive player, and Varejao also is not the defender he once was.  Lebron James is really the only noteworthy defensive talent in that starting five.  Kevin Love's defensive limitations are going to be emphasised more than ever because now, in Cleveland, all eyes will be on him.  That Cavs team is going to be defensively horrendous.  Honestly, even Miami have been pretty poor defensively the last couple of seasons, and they have more defensive talent then the Cavs do right now. 

This situation is not a great one for Love.  He may or not get a ring.  If he does get a ring, he'll be known as the guy who rode the coattails of Lebron and cheated his way to a ring because lets be honest - he couldn't even lead the Timberwolves to a single playoff appearance, so everybody knows that the Cavs winning a Ring isn't from his influence.  If he doesn't get a ring, he will be mocked as the guy who never led his team to the playoffs...and then could never win a ring, even WITH Lebron.  For Love, any chance of him every getting respect is pretty much out the door.

Unless he continues to put up the same numbers in Cleveland, and improves his defence (to be at least tolerable), and they win a Ring.  Then maybe he'll get at least a small amount of credit.  Though probably not. 

[Celtics18]

Think "the early 90's" but a decade later 

What you're still ignoring is the isolation-heavy style of basketball that dominated the late 90's and the early 00's (aughts). The 'one superstar takes on an entire team' that defined the entire post-Jordan vacuum, even though Jordan was still playing at the time. That's hardly analogous to what's being played today, but it just doesn't seem to exist on your timeline.

I concur with this statement.  Today's game is actually much more ball movement based than the basketball that we saw during the Jordan era and the period immediately following.

Look at some recent champions:

Spurs
Pistons
Celtics
Mavericks

have all won titles without isolation-heavy offenses.   

If by, "ball movement based," you mean pick and roll based, then we agree.  As for the teams you listed, 1).  Did that Pistons team even have an offense?  I've seen their games and they were absolutely atrocious.  It was all pick and roll and holding the ball for 23 seconds before throwing up a wild shot and getting the offensive rebound.  I'm talking about the 2004 team, btw, as you'd expect.  2).  Our Celtics team was nothing but pick and roll and the occasional post up for KG, as well as a few screens for Ray Allen, and, honestly, despite how much I loved that club, they were hard to watch on offense, especially in the playoffs.  Take Game 7 vs the Cavs, for example - every possession in that game was a high pick and roll with Pierce and Garnett on one end, followed by a high pick and roll of Lebron and Z on the other end.  It was boring, and, quite honestly, pathetic.  We were lucky to win that series with our, "offense."  3).  The Spurs and Mavs, but particularly the Spurs, are nothing more than a high pick and roll with Parker and Duncan, or Ginobili and Duncan, because the latter hardly posts up anymore - even in the playoffs.  So, all in all, you guys are probably right about the iso-stuff, but I'm just tired of the pick and roll.  Stevens', "read and react," offense is anything but.  It's non-stop pick and roll, and, unsurprisingly, it's horrible.

 

There's a reason the pick and roll has been a basketball staple for a very, very long time.  It's because it's effective, and when played well, it can be a joy to watch. 

I'm not sure exactly what it is you are yearning for?  Is it more post up offense?  The triangle?  Isolation plays?