Author Topic: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together  (Read 10119 times)

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Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2014, 02:51:45 AM »

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I thought we were going in a Sully/Zeller debate direction, in which case they play different positions.  Sully can be better than Zeller, while Zeller still starts.

I mean, I guess.

It becomes a matter of how to approach filling the starting 4 spot next to Zeller, which is where we get two POV's.

Sully is better, but KO presents a nice look next to Zeller, who we established is starting 5.

I'd try to "go big" before I'd try anything else, and go with KO at the 4, and Green at the 3 for a big/long front line.

Turner at SG adds to the length on the court even more.

But as Celtics, we can accept that a better player might come off the bench for the good of the team, balance, chemistry, and winning, and be 6th man.  The 6th man is supposed to be a starter-level talent anyway, so it's no demotion.

And they make a nice, young and improving, and very talented 3-big rotation.
I'm not sure I consider that "very talented" by NBA standards. Yeah, they can outplay Philly with the Sixers missing their two best bigs. We have legitimate NBA players, but they aren't even definite starters on good teams.

I hope to see a lot of development this season. I will also keep things in perspective.

Talented, yes.

Consistent, not even close.

I'm looking forward to seeing them develop together as well.  Hopefully in time they'll be able to execute on the defensive end, but the offense is where their skills come together best.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2014, 03:29:07 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Watch the defensive play at 2:07 . Tross loses Jeff Green. Then goes up for a layup.  But KO with his mobility , reach and improved leaping ability is able to bother the shot , Tross changes hand position in mid air and Zeller comes next to swat the shot.   

If Sully was either in Zeller or KO's shoes what would he been able to do in that instance?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1SAp_kIGPs

Hmm not sure why you're bringing that up. We're discussing Sully vs. KO as defenders, and KO didn't look all that well in that

But that's the problem with your arguments you try to make, you look into one instance in which your binky did something "spectacular"and then try to extrapolate from that the future norm. Things don't quite work that way.

But as i mentioned, I'm done with that argument because it's going nowhere. Sully rotates better, reacts better, defends the post better, etc. And for all your "look at how much Olynyk blocked", funny thing that Sully actually blocked shots at a slightly better rate than Olynyk last season.

And since you're so fond of +/-, I exhort you to look up some stats from Sully's rookie campaign and see the defensive impact he had on that team. You'll be quite surprised.

When you have KG playing along your side, as long as your not a dummy, he can make anyone look decent/bail you out on the defensive end. 

Sullinger like i said has a good iq, enough so he doesn't get burnt when he should.  I never said he is a bad defender but he will likely not be a an above avg defender for his position bc he has very little lift/is not quick off the ground, and does not have the longest wingspan nor reach.   You can't be a plus PF defender just by being in position majority of the time. 

Your right about Sully having more blocked shots last season vs KO. But already in like 4 or 5 pre season games so far, Sully has 0 blocked shots , while KO has 6.

All fine and dandy other than we're comparing how the team performed when Sullinger was on the floor or not, so all other players Sullinger is being compared to also benefited from playing alongside KG. That said the improvement defensively with Sullinger on the floor was quite significant, particularly when you consider how much of a liability he was (mainly because of poor rotations) earlier in the season of his rookie campaign, it makes his "final" numbers that much more impressive.

Here's an article from January 2013 to see if it jogs some recollection of Sully's defensive performance back then:
http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html

His total rebound rate per 36 minutes of play is 10.8… HIGHEST ON THE TEAM. Oh and also he has the second best defensive rating on the Celtics at 102, behind only KG’s 100. Garnett is in the upper echelon of defensive rating for the league and ranked close behind him is Sully ranked at 72nd overall. The rankings from Basketball Reference are a little skewed because they have guys that have only played a few minutes but still for an undersized power forward that is just crazy...

But it’s without a question that Sullinger is playing the second best defense for big guys besides KG, until I looked at the stats I didn’t realize how close it was.


Here's a bit more +/- reference that you like even though it's not specifically defense related:
http://www.celticstown.com/2013/01/12/jared-sullinger-happy-to-hack-and-the-kevin-garnett-effect/


Sullinger has been on a tear of late, as the 20 year old has averaged 13 points and 13.5 rebound over his last two games.  The competitive spirit is there, as after the game against Houston, Sully was asked about his physical play and responded, “As long as we’re winning I’m happy. Happy to hack.”

This soundbite could have easily come from Garnett, but instead it is the rookie showing the willingness to sacrifice for the team, taking the extra step to secure wins.  Sullinger leads the Celtics this past month with a +66 plus/minus, while his frontcourt buddy Garnett is second on the team with +44.  Whether or not you place importance on plus/minus as a statistic, it is difficult to deny that Sullinger is playing winning basketball.


So we can also talk all we want about how Garnett influenced the players, but I think you're selling short how goo Sullinger was becoming as he matured in his rookie season to the point that you can say that his presence also reduced Garnett's pressure in the defensive end, often matching-up to the most dominant/physical of their opponent's bigs.

Now I'm not arguing that Sully is a defensive savant, but he's a good defender who's usually asked to do more than he should be doing and often forced to play out of position.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2014, 09:00:07 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Rebounds are nice but I consider only defensive ones part of defense.  Using over all rebound to claim he is a elite defender is dishonest.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2014, 09:05:42 AM »

Offline CelticsFanFromNYC

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Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

Yikes a game! +/-!

But yeah, I watch games with my eyes closed. You got me.

well you get your guy who scores 8 but has a -5 and i will get my guy who scores 4 but is a plus 10.

Open your eyes when you watch the games then.  Please rewatch the raptors and tonights game if you can.  And when you watch the games, take off your Sullinger jersey/glasses also

I like my Sullinger glasses, they're quite cool and they tell me that entertaining any argument that tries to "proof" that Olynyk is a better defender than him it's a complete waste of time.

So I'll leave it at that.

+/- a useless measure in itself as well.

Totally agree. Lets say you have 25 points and your man doesn't score once! AT THE SAME TIME,  KOBE feels young again  is going for 60 AND you been playing the whole game.. your bound to be negative no matter how good you played. It's a legit statistical formula to gauge players but, only to a certain extent

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2014, 09:55:22 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

Yikes a game! +/-!

But yeah, I watch games with my eyes closed. You got me.

well you get your guy who scores 8 but has a -5 and i will get my guy who scores 4 but is a plus 10.

Open your eyes when you watch the games then.  Please rewatch the raptors and tonights game if you can.  And when you watch the games, take off your Sullinger jersey/glasses also

I like my Sullinger glasses, they're quite cool and they tell me that entertaining any argument that tries to "proof" that Olynyk is a better defender than him it's a complete waste of time.

So I'll leave it at that.

+/- a useless measure in itself as well.

Totally agree. Lets say you have 25 points and your man doesn't score once! AT THE SAME TIME,  KOBE feels young again  is going for 60 AND you been playing the whole game.. your bound to be negative no matter how good you played. It's a legit statistical formula to gauge players but, only to a certain extent

yeah but this is not 1 on 1 basketball. Its 5 on 5. 

KO has been +17, +7 + etc bc when he is out on the floor with sully, bass, zeller etc. Overall teams either are not having an easy time scoring or the Celts are offensively in a groove.  Usually its a combination of both.

For some ppl it can be considered a negative that KO passes up shots he can and should make. But for me, i consider it unselfish basketball at its best. Spurs kind of basketball. 

Sullinger has also played decent on both ends, especially shooting at a very nice rate from the 3 pt line. But defensively he has no blocks so far (indication he does very little to bother shots), barely any steals , but yeah is rotating, taking a few charges and being in position for the most part (vs his man).  KO on the other hand is doing all of these things, plus he is stealing the ball, altering/blocking shots (for example last night on Sims turnaround jumper was sweet),  providing weakside defense  and provides extra effort to contest jump shooters (half time time they are not the man he is covering). 

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2014, 09:56:48 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Rebounds are nice but I consider only defensive ones part of defense.  Using over all rebound to claim he is a elite defender is dishonest.

Agreed, but I'd be interesting to know the defensive impact an offensive rebound, as in, it might prevent a fast breaks, forces teams to focus on defensive rebounding rather than cheating to run up the floor etc. So I don't think offensive rebounds (as a factor in a teams' defense) is all that irrelevant, though probably not that significant either.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2014, 09:59:53 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

Yikes a game! +/-!

But yeah, I watch games with my eyes closed. You got me.

well you get your guy who scores 8 but has a -5 and i will get my guy who scores 4 but is a plus 10.

Open your eyes when you watch the games then.  Please rewatch the raptors and tonights game if you can.  And when you watch the games, take off your Sullinger jersey/glasses also

I like my Sullinger glasses, they're quite cool and they tell me that entertaining any argument that tries to "proof" that Olynyk is a better defender than him it's a complete waste of time.

So I'll leave it at that.

+/- a useless measure in itself as well.

Totally agree. Lets say you have 25 points and your man doesn't score once! AT THE SAME TIME,  KOBE feels young again  is going for 60 AND you been playing the whole game.. your bound to be negative no matter how good you played. It's a legit statistical formula to gauge players but, only to a certain extent

yeah but this is not 1 on 1 basketball. Its 5 on 5. 

KO has been +17, +7 + etc bc when he is out on the floor with sully, bass, zeller etc. Overall teams either are not having an easy time scoring or the Celts are offensively in a groove.  Usually its a combination of both.

For some ppl it can be considered a negative that KO passes up shots he can and should make. But for me, i consider it unselfish basketball at its best. Spurs kind of basketball. 

Sullinger has also played decent on both ends, especially shooting at a very nice rate from the 3 pt line. But defensively he has no blocks so far (indication he does very little to bother shots), barely any steals , but yeah is rotating, taking a few charges and being in position for the most part (vs his man).  KO on the other hand is doing all of these things, plus he is stealing the ball, altering/blocking shots (for example last night on Sims turnaround jumper was sweet),  providing weakside defense  and provides extra effort to contest jump shooters (half time time they are not the man he is covering). 


I'll say this about "Spurs basketball", Gregg Popovich doesn't like players passing up shots they should be taking. So if you want to use that as a basis to applaud Olynyk's lack of shooting when he should be shooting, you're working from a wrong assessment of the Spurs system. Yes, they make passes when another teammate seems to have a better shooting opportunity, but not shooting the ball when he should shoot it (because he's open most of the time), then that's not good decision making.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2014, 07:25:26 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Someone needs to tell Olynyk he is seven feet tall.
I don't think he knows it.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2014, 07:52:30 PM »

Offline greece66

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The real question for us this year is not Sully or Kelly, but Okafor or Towns.
The rest is semantics subtleties.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2014, 03:30:54 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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+1

Very decent job on the defensive games 2 games in a row.   Yes the pair may struggle against some really athletic frontcourt pairs , but also gives us the best chance to prevent easy baskets under the basket.  Better than having Sullinger or Bass out there.  Sullinger should be coming off the bench.

I give you a TP for this - few people have the guts to utter the words 'Sullinger' and 'bench' in the same sentence on this forum.  He is what Kobe is to Laker fans - can do no wrong.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2014, 03:42:07 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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+1

Very decent job on the defensive games 2 games in a row.   Yes the pair may struggle against some really athletic frontcourt pairs , but also gives us the best chance to prevent easy baskets under the basket.  Better than having Sullinger or Bass out there.  Sullinger should be coming off the bench.

I give you a TP for this - few people have the guts to utter the words 'Sullinger' and 'bench' in the same sentence on this forum.  He is what Kobe is to Laker fans - can do no wrong.

For me , there is no degression nor really progression  (outside of improved 3 pt shooting). His body looks the same as it did in year 1 and last season (disappointing). 

I don't think pairing him up with KO to start/finish games is going to help the team move fwd on the defensive end.  But KO/Zeller combo provides us with an improvement

we will see

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2014, 05:21:16 AM »

Offline clover

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+1

Very decent job on the defensive games 2 games in a row.   Yes the pair may struggle against some really athletic frontcourt pairs , but also gives us the best chance to prevent easy baskets under the basket.  Better than having Sullinger or Bass out there.  Sullinger should be coming off the bench.

I give you a TP for this - few people have the guts to utter the words 'Sullinger' and 'bench' in the same sentence on this forum.  He is what Kobe is to Laker fans - can do no wrong.

For me , there is no degression nor really progression  (outside of improved 3 pt shooting). His body looks the same as it did in year 1 and last season (disappointing). 

I don't think pairing him up with KO to start/finish games is going to help the team move fwd on the defensive end.  But KO/Zeller combo provides us with an improvement

we will see

For me, the reason to start Sully would be to fatten his stat sheet for an ultimate trade. I too like the KO/Zeller combo.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2014, 05:41:04 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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+1

Very decent job on the defensive games 2 games in a row.   Yes the pair may struggle against some really athletic frontcourt pairs , but also gives us the best chance to prevent easy baskets under the basket.  Better than having Sullinger or Bass out there.  Sullinger should be coming off the bench.

I give you a TP for this - few people have the guts to utter the words 'Sullinger' and 'bench' in the same sentence on this forum.  He is what Kobe is to Laker fans - can do no wrong.

I think you've been visiting the wrong forum, Sullinger gets criticized plenty around here, almost to the point of absurdity on some regards.

And suggesting Sullinger coming off the bench  doesn't really take any guts when he's rooting for his two binkies (KO / Zeller) to succeed, he's been at it all Summer. Under those circumstances, it's quite easy to suggest it.

I mean, it only took a couple of minutes here and there of them playing together to jump on the opportunity to push that agenda, which is interesting considering how dominant Sullinger has looked in preseason so far.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2014, 08:02:23 AM »

Offline soccerstock

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Brad Stevens is getting paid big bucks to figure out how to best use Sullinger, KO and Z in the lineup.  These players are quite skilled with high basketball IQ's.  They are all terric passers and can shoot the rock.  KO & Z need to stay on the weights to get stronger and learn how to use their height and body positioning in the paint to get more rebounds.  They could also use some footwork lessons from Kevin McHale,one of the best ever.  None of the three are very athletic but all are good basketball players. Buy the way, they can shoot foul shots too but need to get to the line more by being more aggressive.

I think Sullinger was an absolute steal in the draft.  I look for him to be significantly better this year, if healthy.  Yes, he's chubby but so was/is Charles Barkley.

Danny Ainge needs to do some magic to add a rim protector to the team.  We need a beast on the inside to block shots, rebound and take away most of the dribble penetration the Celts get burned on game after game.

It's hard to accurately evaluate a team in the pre-season due to so much experimentation going on with the team and opponents.  What I see so far is better spacing, better ball movement, more quickness and more of an attacking mode than last season.  The ugly parts are really ugly; too many turnovers, not enough rebounding and little to no rim protecting. The ugly parts have to be fixed soon in order to improving on the dismal record of last season.

Re: I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2014, 08:14:51 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Let's put some things in perspective:

The KO/Zeller front court played and excelled against Toronto against Patrick Patterson and Tyler Hansborough and Sully played almost all his minutes that game versus Amir Johnson and Jonas Valunciunas The KO/Tyler frontcourt then played well versus the frontcourt of the Sixers that was Henry Sims and Brandon Davies. Heck that entire team of players that played for the Sixers that night probably shouldn't be playing in the NBA.

Basing an opinion on the KO/Zeller frontcourt on those games against that competition is patently absurd and ridiculously pre-mature.

Also, keeping things in reality if we want to discuss defensive stats of Sully versus Olynyk let's use last year's stats where the games counted and coaches and players were actually trying to win games and not this pre-season. In those stats Sully had the lower defensive rating, the higher defensive rebounding percentage, the better +/-, the better modified +/-, and the higher number of blocks Per 36. He also drew way more charges and the eye test showed he was the superior defender by a wide margin.

Both players look much more comfortable in the system this year but until the games count and they are playing real competition, basing anything on pre-season stats  is a bit preposterous.

The best frontcourt thus far this season has been Sully at the 4 and Olynyk at the 5. And its not even close.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 08:28:39 AM by nickagneta »