I like Olynyk and Zeller playing together

[BudweiserCeltic]

Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

[Eddie20]

Sure, these are valid points, but again I think developing talent is what matters most in this team, and Zeller has almost nothing to develop.

Zeller is only 24. Plus, he's playing the 5 exclusively for the first time in his career. It's at this position where he can take advantage of one of his biggest assets (his mobility) against slower 5's. I think he can continue to develop.

[Celtics18]

The Ivory Towers.

Ha ha.  Please not.  That's kind of too good not to stick, though. 

[Tr1boy]

Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

Yikes a game! +/-!

But yeah, I watch games with my eyes closed. You got me.

[Tr1boy]

Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

Yikes a game! +/-!

But yeah, I watch games with my eyes closed. You got me.

well you get your guy who scores 8 but has a -5 and i will get my guy who scores 4 but is a plus 10.

Open your eyes when you watch the games then.  Please rewatch the raptors and tonights game if you can.  And when you watch the games, take off your Sullinger jersey/glasses also

[BudweiserCeltic]

Sullinger is the best big we have in our roster. You guys are on a trip.

i guess you haven't been watching him closely on the defensive end. He has zero blocks so far

KO and Zeller each have several

Are you going to bring up block stats as measure of good defense? Come on now. That's just plain lazy.

Sully messed up his offseason by basically doing nothing to improve his body.    Bc of his iq he doesn't get as burnt as much as he should on the defensive end. 

I like Sully but if you have seen most of our preseason games, we have been getting beat up pretty good under the basket (KO/Sully duo). On the other hand KO/Zeller duo has been really good.  They make it hard for the opponents to drive in to score layups or best make them have second thoughts   

If you want to make a case for Zeller's presence on the merit of good defense, you sit KO and work the Sully/Zeller combo.

And sorry, Sully is currently more fit than he was last year. And aside from that, he's simply better on both sides of the ball than KO.

And I like KO, and quite tired of this Sully vs. KO debates, but hands down at the moment Sully is the better player and more importantly in the interest of this thread the better defender.

Have you been watching the pre season games?

Last night do you not remember the team being down more than 12 twice then KO/Zeller combo helping the team close that gap to within 4?

Sullinger got beatup by almost every big he matched up vs the raptors (lengthy, athletic). KO on the other hand held his ground. He was a +17 while Sully was a 0.   

 

Yikes a game! +/-!

But yeah, I watch games with my eyes closed. You got me.

well you get your guy who scores 8 but has a -5 and i will get my guy who scores 4 but is a plus 10.

Open your eyes when you watch the games then.  Please rewatch the raptors and tonights game if you can.  And when you watch the games, take off your Sullinger jersey/glasses also

I like my Sullinger glasses, they're quite cool and they tell me that entertaining any argument that tries to "proof" that Olynyk is a better defender than him it's a complete waste of time.

So I'll leave it at that.

+/- a useless measure in itself as well.

[hwangjini_1]

You are both good posters. Please do not hijack a thread with arguments. It would be better for all concerned if you respected each others opinion as different and moved on. Thank you.

[Tr1boy]

Watch the defensive play at 2:07 . Tross loses Jeff Green. Then goes up for a layup.  But KO with his mobility , reach and improved leaping ability is able to bother the shot , Tross changes hand position in mid air and Zeller comes next to swat the shot.   

If Sully was either in Zeller or KO's shoes what would he been able to do in that instance?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1SAp_kIGPs

[Asher77]

It is too early for me to take sides but one aspect I see that may benefit the Ivory Towers is that they compliment each other well on defense. Both KO and Zeller are very athletic for 7ft compared to most in the NBA. I don't think they get the credit in this regard they deserve. What they lack is strength to muscle and this is Sully's deal. Both KO and Z have high IQ and quickness. They are great team defenders who position themselves very well. Having two guys on the court with this same skill set magnifies the effectivess. They support each other with there steadiness and it gives an illusion to other teams when the ball swings that neither side is open for attack.

A rim defender can rotate to clean up the mistakes teammates have made around him. KO can not do this well but he  may need this skill a lot less with a similar high IQ defender next to him staying in his proper position such as Z does.

Sully has his own positives in strenght  offense and rebounding. Not saying he shouldn't be the starter but if defensive effectiveness is the only measure it may prove to be KO/Z with the upper hand.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Watch the defensive play at 2:07 . Tross loses Jeff Green. Then goes up for a layup.  But KO with his mobility , reach and improved leaping ability is able to bother the shot , Tross changes hand position in mid air and Zeller comes next to swat the shot.   

If Sully was either in Zeller or KO's shoes what would he been able to do in that instance?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1SAp_kIGPs

Hmm not sure why you're bringing that up. We're discussing Sully vs. KO as defenders, and KO didn't look all that well in that

But that's the problem with your arguments you try to make, you look into one instance in which your binky did something "spectacular"and then try to extrapolate from that the future norm. Things don't quite work that way.

But as i mentioned, I'm done with that argument because it's going nowhere. Sully rotates better, reacts better, defends the post better, etc. And for all your "look at how much Olynyk blocked", funny thing that Sully actually blocked shots at a slightly better rate than Olynyk last season.

And since you're so fond of +/-, I exhort you to look up some stats from Sully's rookie campaign and see the defensive impact he had on that team. You'll be quite surprised.

[Tr1boy]

Watch the defensive play at 2:07 . Tross loses Jeff Green. Then goes up for a layup.  But KO with his mobility , reach and improved leaping ability is able to bother the shot , Tross changes hand position in mid air and Zeller comes next to swat the shot.   

If Sully was either in Zeller or KO's shoes what would he been able to do in that instance?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1SAp_kIGPs

Hmm not sure why you're bringing that up. We're discussing Sully vs. KO as defenders, and KO didn't look all that well in that

But that's the problem with your arguments you try to make, you look into one instance in which your binky did something "spectacular"and then try to extrapolate from that the future norm. Things don't quite work that way.

But as i mentioned, I'm done with that argument because it's going nowhere. Sully rotates better, reacts better, defends the post better, etc. And for all your "look at how much Olynyk blocked", funny thing that Sully actually blocked shots at a slightly better rate than Olynyk last season.

And since you're so fond of +/-, I exhort you to look up some stats from Sully's rookie campaign and see the defensive impact he had on that team. You'll be quite surprised.

When you have KG playing along your side, as long as your not a dummy, he can make anyone look decent/bail you out on the defensive end. 

Sullinger like i said has a good iq, enough so he doesn't get burnt when he should.  I never said he is a bad defender but he will likely not be a an above avg defender for his position bc he has very little lift/is not quick off the ground, and does not have the longest wingspan nor reach.   You can't be a plus PF defender just by being in position majority of the time. 

Your right about Sully having more blocked shots last season vs KO. But already in like 4 or 5 pre season games so far, Sully has 0 blocked shots , while KO has 6.

[Tr1boy]

You are both good posters. Please do not hijack a thread with arguments. It would be better for all concerned if you respected each others opinion as different and moved on. Thank you.

+1

It's all good. Just a friendly debate. 

[More Banners]

I thought we were going in a Sully/Zeller debate direction, in which case they play different positions.  Sully can be better than Zeller, while Zeller still starts.

I mean, I guess.

It becomes a matter of how to approach filling the starting 4 spot next to Zeller, which is where we get two POV's.

Sully is better, but KO presents a nice look next to Zeller, who we established is starting 5.

I'd try to "go big" before I'd try anything else, and go with KO at the 4, and Green at the 3 for a big/long front line.

Turner at SG adds to the length on the court even more.

But as Celtics, we can accept that a better player might come off the bench for the good of the team, balance, chemistry, and winning, and be 6th man.  The 6th man is supposed to be a starter-level talent anyway, so it's no demotion.

And they make a nice, young and improving, and very talented 3-big rotation.

[guava_wrench]

I thought we were going in a Sully/Zeller debate direction, in which case they play different positions.  Sully can be better than Zeller, while Zeller still starts.

I mean, I guess.

It becomes a matter of how to approach filling the starting 4 spot next to Zeller, which is where we get two POV's.

Sully is better, but KO presents a nice look next to Zeller, who we established is starting 5.

I'd try to "go big" before I'd try anything else, and go with KO at the 4, and Green at the 3 for a big/long front line.

Turner at SG adds to the length on the court even more.

But as Celtics, we can accept that a better player might come off the bench for the good of the team, balance, chemistry, and winning, and be 6th man.  The 6th man is supposed to be a starter-level talent anyway, so it's no demotion.

And they make a nice, young and improving, and very talented 3-big rotation.

I'm not sure I consider that "very talented" by NBA standards. Yeah, they can outplay Philly with the Sixers missing their two best bigs. We have legitimate NBA players, but they aren't even definite starters on good teams.

I hope to see a lot of development this season. I will also keep things in perspective.