Poll

Are we tanking this season?

Yes
41 (44.1%)
No
52 (55.9%)

Total Members Voted: 92

Author Topic: Are we tanking this year?  (Read 38698 times)

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Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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No, I'm the best fan....

And in other news...

We tanked last year. Sometimes comically so.

We're not tanking this year from the get go with a roster that was terribly unbalanced and where we were showcasing players to get rid of them.  Whether we find we're effectively out of the running for the playoffs it at some point in the season and then decide to improve our draft position is another story.

I get the sense that Brad will be playing them hard all season.  You'll see a lot of effort out there.  I do think they'll be a lot of showcasing going on too.   The ending might be very similar to last season.

I just don't think we'll win many games because this team just isn't that talented and the Celtics have a redundant roster. 


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Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2014, 12:40:19 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I didn't say that you did, did I? You're hardly the only one posting in this thread.

Sorry about that, then.  I still don't think anyone is judging the worth of any posts based on the perceived "fandom" of the given poster.   

I certainly think that some posters are fed up with other posters advocating tanking.  That may not be fair, but from my vantage point, it is somewhat justifiable.

I try very, very hard to keep my cool, but it's not always easy, I will admit.

Again, though, just too be clear, nobody's a better fan than anyone else, everybody's level of fandom is exactly the same. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2014, 01:20:30 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Even us guys who do not think they will more than 30 will be rooting for the C's.   I see us as tanking but passively due to the roster.   I think we will play hard and be lucky to get a top six pick, but I do not see us making the playoffs.   I am not root for us to tank, I am just a realist, I root for us to win every game once the whistle is blown.

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2014, 02:00:28 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Even us guys who do not think they will more than 30 will be rooting for the C's.   I see us as tanking but passively due to the roster.   I think we will play hard and be lucky to get a top six pick, but I do not see us making the playoffs.   I am not root for us to tank, I am just a realist, I root for us to win every game once the whistle is blown.

This sounds about right.


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Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2014, 02:08:33 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Agreed.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2014, 03:04:47 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Even us guys who do not think they will more than 30 will be rooting for the C's.   I see us as tanking but passively due to the roster.   I think we will play hard and be lucky to get a top six pick, but I do not see us making the playoffs.   I am not rooting for us to tank, I am just a realist, I root for us to win every game once the whistle is blown.

This sounds about right.

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2014, 03:19:36 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Even us guys who do not think they will more than 30 will be rooting for the C's.   I see us as tanking but passively due to the roster.   I think we will play hard and be lucky to get a top six pick, but I do not see us making the playoffs.   I am not root for us to tank, I am just a realist, I root for us to win every game once the whistle is blown.

This sounds about right.
certainly describes my outlook on this season. 

I'm expecting about 27 wins but if they exceed it, I see that as a positive, not a negative.

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2014, 04:30:38 PM »

Offline greece66

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Anyway, since the draft system change did not go through tanking makes less sense. With the newly suggested system, being among the bottom 6 teams made lots of sense. Now (ie with the old system) it does not make a big difference whether you finish 6th or 8th. What I do expect is for the to trade ET, Thornton and maybe even Zeller for future assets and some serious tanking in the last ten or so games (like last year).
I did not even say the R word because I already had enough of this.

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2014, 06:22:12 AM »

Offline greece66

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The 2014 draft class was considered one of the best draft classes in the history of draft classes.  Setting aside the Cavs who got the 1st pick after finishing with the 9th worst record and had the best player in basketball decide to return to his hometown (they are either an example of crazy good luck or the result of some vast NBA conspiracy), does anyone really think that any of the teams that picked two through seven in this year's draft put themselves in a position to be automatic title contenders within the next five years?

Are Philadelphia, Utah, Orlando, Milwaukee, Us, or the Lakers that much further ahead than they were last season?  I look at those teams, and I see the teams that most people expect to be at the bottom of the standings again this year. 

What, now?  Are these really the teams of the future?  Are they going to spend the next five or six years battling to out-tank each other until finally sometime in the mid-2020s, one of them emerges as a championship team?

Here we go!!  Let's restore Celtic pride!!  If we continue down this path, we'll have close to a 20% chance of being in contention by 2023!!

I'm so excited about the strategy of tanking for the greatest franchise in US sports history.  What could go wrong?
IMHO Milwaukee will be much better this year, and with two future all-stars (Giannis and Parker) is to a situation similar to OKC in 2008 after they drafted Durant and Westbrook. As for Philly, they ll be a hell of a team in 3-4 years from now.

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2014, 06:24:17 AM »

Offline greece66

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And in any case, if draft picks do not matter, then why does Ainge keep making trades to acquire future draft picks?  ::)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 07:20:20 AM by greece666 »

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #175 on: October 24, 2014, 09:05:02 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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And in any case, if draft picks do not matter, then why does Ainge keep making trades to acquire future draft picks?  ::)

I think you missed my point.  Draft picks are nice, but I'm not a proponent of a strategy in which the primary goal is to lose as much as you can to get a chance at higher picks.

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #176 on: October 24, 2014, 09:19:01 AM »

Offline greece66

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And in any case, if draft picks do not matter, then why does Ainge keep making trades to acquire future draft picks?  ::)

I think you missed my point.  Draft picks are nice, but I'm not a proponent of a strategy in which the primary goal is to lose as much as you can to get a chance at higher picks.
Fair enough.
But in this case also bear in mind that tanking in this strict sense rarely occurs. Purposefully losing games is a tactic rather than a strategy usually employed towards the end of the season, when you 'rest' your best players or ask your team to do silly things (like AB shooting 11 3's against Philly if I remember correctly).
Tanking (aka rebuilding) as a strategy has multiple rewards. For instance, this year's C's will play fast and shoot lots of 3's. IMHO this will not improve their win record (and strictly speaking since "the team is not doing the best it can to win" it is "tanking"). But it is reasonable to expect that over time the players will improve in playing this way and the strategy will bear fruits (say in 2015-16). Similarly, buying players cheap and then selling as soon as they start performing well (eg Crawford last year) is not helping you in the short term, but you can make the case that it improves the team's prospects in the long term.
So, tanking involves many things: experimenting with new strategies, giving more time to young talents, gambling with players' contracts, and when really necessary purposefully losing a game or two.
(I hope I did not miss your point again, if I did, by all means do correct me.)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 09:42:35 AM by greece666 »

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #177 on: October 24, 2014, 12:07:17 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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And in any case, if draft picks do not matter, then why does Ainge keep making trades to acquire future draft picks?  ::)

I think you missed my point.  Draft picks are nice, but I'm not a proponent of a strategy in which the primary goal is to lose as much as you can to get a chance at higher picks.
Fair enough.
But in this case also bear in mind that tanking in this strict sense rarely occurs. Purposefully losing games is a tactic rather than a strategy usually employed towards the end of the season, when you 'rest' your best players or ask your team to do silly things (like AB shooting 11 3's against Philly if I remember correctly).
Tanking (aka rebuilding) as a strategy has multiple rewards. For instance, this year's C's will play fast and shoot lots of 3's. IMHO this will not improve their win record (and strictly speaking since "the team is not doing the best it can to win" it is "tanking"). But it is reasonable to expect that over time the players will improve in playing this way and the strategy will bear fruits (say in 2015-16). Similarly, buying players cheap and then selling as soon as they start performing well (eg Crawford last year) is not helping you in the short term, but you can make the case that it improves the team's prospects in the long term.
So, tanking involves many things: experimenting with new strategies, giving more time to young talents, gambling with players' contracts, and when really necessary purposefully losing a game or two.
(I hope I did not miss your point again, if I did, by all means do correct me.)

Well, you are actually way off my original point, which was simply that of course I'm not anti draft picks.  As to all the rest of it, now we are just into the semantics of what constitutes "tanking."

To me, what we are putting on the floor does not constitute a tanking team.  It's possible that Ainge could have made some short term moves this off-season that would have helped us this year, but possibly set us back as far as the future goes.

If this fits your definition of tanking, then I guess we are tanking.  My definition is a little different.  For me, tanking is making losing the primary goal of the season.  I don't think that's the case this year.  I think everybody involved with the Celtics organization is going to make a concerted effort to get the current roster to perform at its top level and win as many games as possible.

Thankfully, this year these forums don't seem to be as inundated with the "Wiggins or Bust" type sentiments of last season.  Most people don't think we'll be good, but less seem to be staunchly opposed to making an effort to win.  That's a positive as far as I'm concerned.

I'm truly excited to see how the 2014-2015 season unfolds for our beloved Celtics. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #178 on: October 24, 2014, 12:25:31 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I have a question related to whether they should tank or not. If following guys will be
-Smart, an All-star pg
-Young, a Klay Thompson type
-Turner, 75% Pierce
-Sully, putting up David Lee #s
-Olynyk, a healthy Ryan Anderson
-Bradley, a 6th man of the year candidate

do the C's want to tank or get these guys playoff experience as quickly as possible?

Re: Are we tanking this year?
« Reply #179 on: October 24, 2014, 03:47:18 PM »

Offline greece66

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And in any case, if draft picks do not matter, then why does Ainge keep making trades to acquire future draft picks?  ::)

I think you missed my point.  Draft picks are nice, but I'm not a proponent of a strategy in which the primary goal is to lose as much as you can to get a chance at higher picks.
Fair enough.
But in this case also bear in mind that tanking in this strict sense rarely occurs. Purposefully losing games is a tactic rather than a strategy usually employed towards the end of the season, when you 'rest' your best players or ask your team to do silly things (like AB shooting 11 3's against Philly if I remember correctly).
Tanking (aka rebuilding) as a strategy has multiple rewards. For instance, this year's C's will play fast and shoot lots of 3's. IMHO this will not improve their win record (and strictly speaking since "the team is not doing the best it can to win" it is "tanking"). But it is reasonable to expect that over time the players will improve in playing this way and the strategy will bear fruits (say in 2015-16). Similarly, buying players cheap and then selling as soon as they start performing well (eg Crawford last year) is not helping you in the short term, but you can make the case that it improves the team's prospects in the long term.
So, tanking involves many things: experimenting with new strategies, giving more time to young talents, gambling with players' contracts, and when really necessary purposefully losing a game or two.
(I hope I did not miss your point again, if I did, by all means do correct me.)

Well, you are actually way off my original point, which was simply that of course I'm not anti draft picks.  As to all the rest of it, now we are just into the semantics of what constitutes "tanking."

To me, what we are putting on the floor does not constitute a tanking team.  It's possible that Ainge could have made some short term moves this off-season that would have helped us this year, but possibly set us back as far as the future goes.

If this fits your definition of tanking, then I guess we are tanking.  My definition is a little different.  For me, tanking is making losing the primary goal of the season.  I don't think that's the case this year.  I think everybody involved with the Celtics organization is going to make a concerted effort to get the current roster to perform at its top level and win as many games as possible.

Thankfully, this year these forums don't seem to be as inundated with the "Wiggins or Bust" type sentiments of last season.  Most people don't think we'll be good, but less seem to be staunchly opposed to making an effort to win.  That's a positive as far as I'm concerned.

I'm truly excited to see how the 2014-2015 season unfolds for our beloved Celtics.
This is a very strong definition. If you think about it for a moment, not even Hinkie makes losing the primary goal of the season. Player development and gathering talents are his primary goal - not losing per se. Losing is a means to an end, not an end in itself because losing always comes with a cost (lower games attendance, less ads, your players' value goes down etc).
Anyway, you do have a point, there is no point debating semantics unless we are at Chomsky's seminar at MIT. Having said this, your remark that "everybody involved with the Celtics organization is going to make a concerted effort to get the current roster to perform at its top level and win as many games as possible" made me chuckle. Not even Ainge could say this with a straight face.