Author Topic: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass  (Read 6142 times)

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Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2014, 09:46:55 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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I like Steven Adams and think he could be a realistic target, however I think we need to give up more than Green. I would trade KO for him.
Wait KO and Green for Adams? Are you serious?

OKC's not trading him for Green alone.  Hell, they're not trading him period, but you can't be serious if you think they'd trade Adams for Jeff Green, of all people.

Umm...if they had half a brain, yes.

Jeff Green is playing out of his role in Boston because he's a complementary scorer (a #2 or #3 option optimally) and we are trying to force him to be a #1 scorer.

Do you have any idea how much more deadly OKC would be with Jeff Green as their third scoring option to compliment Westbrook and KD?  He would be the absolute perfect complement for them.  He can shoot from outside AND attack the basket, gets to the line at a decent rate, is a solid free throw shooter, is a proven clutch scorer, and has a history of shutting down opposing elite SF's defensively.

Just imagine if OKC had Green defending the Lebron / Carmello / George types, allowing KD to save his energy for the offensive end of the floor? 

Alternatively they could bring Green off the bench for 30 minutes a night the same way they used to with Harden, allowing them to continue to put offensive pressure on when KD and Westbrook sit.

I can absolutely guarantee Green would help OKC a LOT more than Adam's does with his 3 points, 4 rebounds and 0.5 blocks in 12 minutes a night. 

This is also the reason why I'd never dream of trading Green for Adams.  Adams has attitude problem and at this point in time he's still a nobody.  He's mediocre.  Jeff Green is two-way player and a starting calibre swingman in this league.  I wouldn't even trade Green for Adams and a first round pick, because any OKC first rounder is going to be a borderline 2nd round pick anyway.

Oh and a PER of 11 is not actually good...it's about 25% below average.

Spare me your ridiculous scalding takes.  Having Green does absolutely nothing for OKC if they don't have a low post presence other than the corpse of Perkins.  That's why they traded him in the first place.  Of course you'd know this if you bothered to watch and/or follow OKC instead of just talking grandiosely about how Green would improve them more so than having Adams.  Which is utter nonsense.

(P.S. OKC peaked as a first-round exit with Green as the third option.  Ibaka is far better suited for that job for the Thunder and always will be.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 09:53:21 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2014, 01:37:32 AM »

Offline nostar

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Spare me your ridiculous scalding takes.  Having Green does absolutely nothing for OKC if they don't have a low post presence other than the corpse of Perkins.  That's why they traded him in the first place.  Of course you'd know this if you bothered to watch and/or follow OKC instead of just talking grandiosely about how Green would improve them more so than having Adams.  Which is utter nonsense.

(P.S. OKC peaked as a first-round exit with Green as the third option.  Ibaka is far better suited for that job for the Thunder and always will be.)

You know that the low post presence for Miami was Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem and Chris Andersen? Okay, it was obviously Lebron like everything in Miami. When you have crazy athleticism on the perimeter you can get away with little to no post presence. Jeff Green would fall in the category of crazy athleticism, as would Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Jackson. I'm not saying it's a good idea but we clearly have an example from the very recent past of it working. I'd also argue that OKC's support casting for Durant would be better than Lebron's ever was in Miami. Westbrook/Ibaka/Green > Wade/Bosh/Miller. At least I think so.

So setting aside your first point, which was completely and totally wrong, you're also not factoring in that Green's first year was his and Durant's sophomore campaign and was Westbrook's rookie season. His next season was Ibaka's and Harden's rookie season. Since then Green has significantly improved his 3PT shooting and OKC's players (Durant/Westbrook) have gotten significantly better.

I also think that Green is just a better NBA player now. His statistics are very consistent through his playing career (actually better playing along side go-to scorers) and he's become a very formidable defender at the 3.

And as I mentioned earlier, Adams isn't exactly a prize at this point. He might be, but right now Zeller's numbers are better. I don't want Perk back any more than the next sports statistician but his expiring deal and a couple of young pieces make Green a little less vital to our growth as a team...if you know what I mean.

Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2014, 01:55:20 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Endless was on point till some of the (p.s. stuff) which lead to above. Back on his original point Adams is more of what OKC doesn't have. Green at best just does what Ibaka does. OKC wouldn't be interested in Green.

Good try though Adams is a decent Center.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 02:05:25 AM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2014, 09:07:47 AM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Spare me your ridiculous scalding takes.  Having Green does absolutely nothing for OKC if they don't have a low post presence other than the corpse of Perkins.  That's why they traded him in the first place.  Of course you'd know this if you bothered to watch and/or follow OKC instead of just talking grandiosely about how Green would improve them more so than having Adams.  Which is utter nonsense.

(P.S. OKC peaked as a first-round exit with Green as the third option.  Ibaka is far better suited for that job for the Thunder and always will be.)

You know that the low post presence for Miami was Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem and Chris Andersen? Okay, it was obviously Lebron like everything in Miami. When you have crazy athleticism on the perimeter you can get away with little to no post presence. Jeff Green would fall in the category of crazy athleticism, as would Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Jackson. I'm not saying it's a good idea but we clearly have an example from the very recent past of it working. I'd also argue that OKC's support casting for Durant would be better than Lebron's ever was in Miami. Westbrook/Ibaka/Green > Wade/Bosh/Miller. At least I think so.

So setting aside your first point, which was completely and totally wrong, you're also not factoring in that Green's first year was his and Durant's sophomore campaign and was Westbrook's rookie season. His next season was Ibaka's and Harden's rookie season. Since then Green has significantly improved his 3PT shooting and OKC's players (Durant/Westbrook) have gotten significantly better.

I also think that Green is just a better NBA player now. His statistics are very consistent through his playing career (actually better playing along side go-to scorers) and he's become a very formidable defender at the 3.

And as I mentioned earlier, Adams isn't exactly a prize at this point. He might be, but right now Zeller's numbers are better. I don't want Perk back any more than the next sports statistician but his expiring deal and a couple of young pieces make Green a little less vital to our growth as a team...if you know what I mean.

Your argument already fell apart when you brought up Miami.  D-Wade and LeBron were effectively the low-post presence for Miami.  Why do you think Bosh had to turn into a spot up shooter?  Why do you think Miami stopped starting guys like Joel Anthony and fully embraced small ball?  Because D-Wade and LeBron were the guys doing the work down low.  KD and Westbrook don't have that in their game; they're developing it, but it's not even remotely comparable to what the Heat ran.  That comparison is silly.

Green does not improve OKC to any meaningful extent if they have to get rid of Adams.  It doesn't matter if he's currently a better player than Adams (he should be, since he's been in the league since 2007, compared to the second-year Adams); he's not a better fit.  This isn't fantasy basketball, where you can just throw the best players on one squad regardless of how the pieces actually work together and say, "well, let's go wreck this league."  Green has no purpose on an OKC squad that would have to rely on KENDRICK PERKINS in the year 2014 as their primary post player.  It's as silly as saying, "hey, Klay Thompson would really improve the Celtics" as though the team's main weakness right now isn't the fact that they don't have a true, starting-caliber center.

As for the rest of your argument: Ibaka immediately became one of the most productive players for OKC following the Green trade, posting the second highest numbers of wins produced once he moved into the starting lineup.  Their net rating went from +2.6 to +7.2. With his promotion to a starter, Ibaka became the backbone of their defense.  If you think OKC's improvement is entirely or largely unrelated to the fact that they swapped Green for Ibaka and is purely explained by the Thunder roster gaining more experience, you clearly haven't been paying attention to that team.  There was an immediate and noticeable impact post-trade and that is simply undeniable.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 09:33:01 AM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2014, 09:39:41 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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If you think OKC's improvement is entirely or largely unrelated to the fact that they swapped Green for Ibaka and is purely explained by the Thunder roster gaining more experience, you clearly haven't been paying attention to that team.  There was an immediate and noticeable impact post-trade and that is simply undeniable.

Agreed.
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Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2014, 12:23:04 PM »

Offline nostar

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Your argument already fell apart when you brought up Miami.  D-Wade and LeBron were effectively the low-post presence for Miami.

I actually mentioned that. It was my second sentence. Did you not make it to the second sentence?

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Why do you think Miami stopped starting guys like Joel Anthony and fully embraced small ball?  Because D-Wade and LeBron were the guys doing the work down low. KD and Westbrook don't have that in their game; they're developing it, but it's not even remotely comparable to what the Heat ran.  That comparison is silly.

They did it because their big guys sucked actually. They didn't want to. They kept trying to find a post player. Remember Curry/Oden/Andersen? Lebron and Wade had to play in the post because they couldn't pay a decent post player to come there after the Heatles ate up the entire salary cap. Doh!

If you look at the rebounding numbers for Wade/Westbrook and Durant/Lebron from last season they are nearly identical. Sure the OKC guys shoot more from the outside but then again they have a completely different system. They could definitely run a small-ball system in OKC. I would even go so far as to say they should. Their players are athletic, long and excellent shooters. There might not be a better team in the league for that paradigm.

The comparison isn't silly. You disagree with it which is fine. Unfortunately you just unilaterally pan the suggestion without any support for your claims. "They don't have it in their game." Like it's a recipe and you're tasting for the subtle hints of coriander. Did you mean they lack the ability to play small ball? Well the small ball unit from last season (Durant-Sefolosha-Westbrook-Ibaka-Jackson) was a +50. Much better than the Durant-Sefolosha-Westbrook-Ibaka-Perkins unit at -15. Seems like they might have it in their games eh?

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Green does not improve OKC to any meaningful extent if they have to get rid of Adams. 

Please explain why a very talented NBA starting SF wouldn't improve OKC. You might be right but I would have no idea because you don't say why.

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It doesn't matter if he's currently a better player than Adams (he should be, since he's been in the league since 2007, compared to the second-year Adams);

Very solid logic. I'm sure that Corey Brewer should be a better player than Anthony Davis because he's been in the league longer.

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he's not a better fit.  This isn't fantasy basketball, where you can just throw the best players on one squad regardless of how the pieces actually work together and say, "well, let's go wreck this league."  Green has no purpose on an OKC squad that would have to rely on KENDRICK PERKINS in the year 2014 as their primary post player.

Perkins wasn't the primary post player. Actually Durant was their primary post player, not only in shots taken in the paint but also in percentage of shots made in the paint. Perk shot 48% in the pain while Durant put in 65% of his baskets.

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It's as silly as saying, "hey, Klay Thompson would really improve the Celtics" as though the team's main weakness right now isn't the fact that they don't have a true, starting-caliber center.

Klay Thompson would improve the Celtics. He's a really good player. If I grant you that our biggest problem is the lack of a true starting center, even then I don't think that is our only problem. I'm not going to say that Klay would make as good as say, Anthony Davis. I am going to say that both players would significantly improve our roster and our talent level. This just seems obvious. Why talk about these things like they're mutually exclusive? I guess if OKC thinks that Adams is their long term solution in the post then maybe they wouldn't want to trade him. I have no idea why they'd think that. He had worse numbers Tyler Zeller did last season.

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As for the rest of your argument: Ibaka immediately became one of the most productive players for OKC following the Green trade, posting the second highest numbers of wins produced once he moved into the starting lineup.  Their net rating went from +2.6 to +7.2. With his promotion to a starter, Ibaka became the backbone of their defense.  If you think OKC's improvement is entirely or largely unrelated to the fact that they swapped Green for Ibaka and is purely explained by the Thunder roster gaining more experience, you clearly haven't been paying attention to that team.  There was an immediate and noticeable impact post-trade and that is simply undeniable.

Correlation doesn't not equal causation. Trading Jeff Green and the rise in Ibaka's numbers might have happened at roughly the same time (it didn't actually but whatever) but that doesn't mean it was the cause of it. His scoring actually went down slightly the next year, his rebounds remained the same and his mpg remained the same. The 2012-13 season is actually when Ibaka became a noticeably better player for OKC and that corresponded with the trading of James Harden.

So Denied...I guess. Ibaka could easily play along side Green right now. Actually it would be amazing to watch. See, we can all say things with no evidence to back up our claims. It's easy!

Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2014, 01:42:57 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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They did it because their big guys sucked actually. They didn't want to. They kept trying to find a post player. Remember Curry/Oden/Andersen? Lebron and Wade had to play in the post because they couldn't pay a decent post player to come there after the Heatles ate up the entire salary cap. Doh!

Nonsense.  They did it specifically because Wade wasn't a floor spacer and needed the ball in his hands, whereas Bosh was capable of functioning as a spot-up big.  Hint: that's exactly why Bosh's role on offense became increasingly marginalized and drew him further away from the basket.

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The comparison isn't silly. You disagree with it which is fine. Unfortunately you just unilaterally pan the suggestion without any support for your claims. "They don't have it in their game." Like it's a recipe and you're tasting for the subtle hints of coriander. Did you mean they lack the ability to play small ball? Well the small ball unit from last season (Durant-Sefolosha-Westbrook-Ibaka-Jackson) was a +50. Much better than the Durant-Sefolosha-Westbrook-Ibaka-Perkins unit at -15. Seems like they might have it in their games eh?

Westbrook and Durant don't have the post games of Wade and LeBron.  Am I supposed to provide numbers showing that Westbrook and Durant can't post-up to the same level of Wade and LeBron?  Watch the tape.  Their post games aren't as advanced.  That's clearly what I'm referring to, considering, you know, I even said that "Wade and LeBron do the work down low for Miami." 

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Please explain why a very talented NBA starting SF wouldn't improve OKC. You might be right but I would have no idea because you don't say why.

"I actually mentioned that. It was my second sentence. Did you not make it to the second sentence?"

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Very solid logic. I'm sure that Corey Brewer should be a better player than Anthony Davis because he's been in the league longer.

This would be a useful snide rebuttal if, you know, Corey Brewer and Anthony Davis were both regarded as role playing prospects.  But nice attempt at a red herring.  B+ for effort.

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Perkins wasn't the primary post player. Actually Durant was their primary post player, not only in shots taken in the paint but also in percentage of shots made in the paint. Perk shot 48% in the pain while Durant put in 65% of his baskets.

... that does not mean Durant is the primary post player.  Durant's not primarily getting fed the ball in the low-post and he's most certainly not parking himself around the basket on offense.

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Klay Thompson would improve the Celtics. He's a really good player. If I grant you that our biggest problem is the lack of a true starting center, even then I don't think that is our only problem. I'm not going to say that Klay would make as good as say, Anthony Davis. I am going to say that both players would significantly improve our roster and our talent level. This just seems obvious. Why talk about these things like they're mutually exclusive?

Klay Thompson would be the best shooting guard on this roster.  Klay Thompson wouldn't change the fact that the Celtics would continue to have very weak interior defense.  It's a very simple concept.  They'd have a solid shooting guard who's still one less guy who can help stop shots at the rim.

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I guess if OKC thinks that Adams is their long term solution in the post then maybe they wouldn't want to trade him. I have no idea why they'd think that. He had worse numbers Tyler Zeller did last season.

Gee, I dunno, maybe it has something to do with the fact that his numbers were already largely better than those of their current starting center, despite the fact that Adams was a 20-year-old rookie?  Or maybe it has to do with observable improvements during the playoffs in his defense and tenacity?  Or maybe it has to do with observable improvements in his game during summer league?  Or perhaps it's his on-going performance in preseason, where he's showcasing a veritable offensive game, including last night's game where he scored 12 straight points to bring the Thunder from deficit of 11 to a lead of 1?

Couldn't even begin to possibly fathom why the Thunder might be thinking he's the center of the future.

Also, did you even look at those stats you just linked to?  Or did you merely note that Adams scored fewer points (... on fewer shots) on lower percentages with a lower PER than Zeller just to make the ridiculous generalization that "he had worse numbers than Tyler Zeller did last season"?  Because, if you look at them, you see that - *gasp* - there are certain areas Adams did better in (ORtg/DRtg differential, blocks, offensive rebounding, and so on).  Meaning... that link doesn't prove much of anything you seem to be implying. Zeller had better numbers in some regards, Adams had better numbers in other regards.  Whoopty-doo.

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Correlation doesn't not equal causation. Trading Jeff Green and the rise in Ibaka's numbers might have happened at roughly the same time (it didn't actually but whatever) but that doesn't mean it was the cause of it. His scoring actually went down slightly the next year, his rebounds remained the same and his mpg remained the same. The 2012-13 season is actually when Ibaka became a noticeably better player for OKC and that corresponded with the trading of James Harden.

Let me guess: you say 2012-13 is when Ibaka became "noticeably better" because he got more shots and thus scored more than he did in 2011-12.  Which is why Steven Adams also had generally "worse" numbers than Tyler Zeller, right?  ::)

(Because, otherwise, there's no improvements in his stats from 2011-12 to 2012-13 that are particularly any more notable than the improvements observed from 2009-10 to 2010-11, 2010-11 to 2011-12, and 2012-13 to 2013-14.)

It's cool that you know the phrase "correlation does not equal causation," I guess.

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So Denied...I guess. Ibaka could easily play along side Green right now. Actually it would be amazing to watch. See, we can all say things with no evidence to back up our claims. It's easy!

The fact that you can't understand what I'm saying as it pertains to OKC because you don't actually pay enough attention to the Thunder beyond being able to read Basketball Reference numbers is no fault of mine.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:57:50 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Trade Idea for center and giving up bass
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2014, 11:17:53 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Adams is too unproven for me.  I'd rather try to get Hibbert from Indiana.  Would Jeff Green and Bass and/or Sullinger make a palatable trade for the Pacers?  I hear the Cavs are trying to pry Hibbert from Indy and they are offering something like Varejao + Waiters.

http://hoopshabit.com/2014/09/29/nba-rumors-cavaliers-trade-roy-hibbert/

PS  Green might be an attractive player for the Pacers who need a SF until Paul George returns to health.  And even when George comes back, Green has the flexibility to defend the 3/4 for them.