Author Topic: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG  (Read 35476 times)

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Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #195 on: October 14, 2014, 06:27:51 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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We definitely were watching different things then. KG would hardly ever go in the post and it became worse as he continued his tenure with us. His entire career his knock should be that he needed to be more in the post. I could make a highlight reel of Rondo shooting 3s and what does that really prove? Is he the second coming of Mark Price?
Pre-injury our offense was built off KG post ups both high and low and Pierce on the elbow.

Post injury his post game frequency declined to conserve his energy as much as anything. Though the C's used it with a purpose in the playoffs and for stretches during big games.

His post play was one of the two mismatches that won the Cleveland series in 09-10 and in 10-11 he played down there a ton as well. After that he became much more of a jumpshooter until he moved to the C position mid-season. Once that happened he became much more of a threat both with his jumper and in the post with his renewed quickness advantage.

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #196 on: October 14, 2014, 06:30:11 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Some actual numbers on KG:

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/826-Kevin-Garnett/season/2010-2011-REG

Nice. I wish they had a shot chart of how many shots he took off post up attempts though. In order to filter the putbacks, lobs, and fastbreaks from the equation.

The NBA.com stats page does that, but the data doesn't back enough to be useful.

Also, for no real reason (except that I've found his passing to be similar to Rondo's), here's 38 year old Jason Williams in a pickup game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4dlIJpHYCZk
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Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #197 on: October 14, 2014, 06:35:29 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I found this. You can rule out the ones "at rim" as far as post up goes. These will occur in the 3-9 ft range and obviously not all will be postups. So assuming 75% of the shots here were postups that would be approximately 100. He played 71 games that year so that means he averaged roughly 1.4 postup attempts a game.


Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #198 on: October 14, 2014, 06:38:18 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Some actual numbers on KG:

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/826-Kevin-Garnett/season/2010-2011-REG

64% of his shots from the left side of the paint down low, just where I described his favorite post-up move.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 06:47:43 PM by mmmmm »
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Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #199 on: October 14, 2014, 06:42:40 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I found this. You can rule out the ones "at rim" as far as post up goes. These will occur in the 3-9 ft range and obviously not all will be postups. So assuming 75% of the shots here were postups that would be approximately 100. He played 71 games that year so that means he averaged roughly 1.4 postup attempts a game.



Convenient logic.   Completely baseless.  But convenient.
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Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #200 on: October 14, 2014, 06:46:05 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I found this. You can rule out the ones "at rim" as far as post up goes. These will occur in the 3-9 ft range and obviously not all will be postups. So assuming 75% of the shots here were postups that would be approximately 100. He played 71 games that year so that means he averaged roughly 1.4 postup attempts a game.



Convenient logic.   Completely baseless.  But convenient.

How so?

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2014, 06:54:11 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I found this. You can rule out the ones "at rim" as far as post up goes. These will occur in the 3-9 ft range and obviously not all will be postups. So assuming 75% of the shots here were postups that would be approximately 100. He played 71 games that year so that means he averaged roughly 1.4 postup attempts a game.



Convenient logic.   Completely baseless.  But convenient.

How so?

Provide some basis for asserting that no 'at rim' shots are the results of post-ups.

You can't.  Because it is a complete fabrication on your part.

There are wide variety of post-up plays and among them, the up-and-under moves almost always result in 'at-rim' shots.  As do base-line drop-steps.  But even basic spin moves that normally result in a short jumper often result in an open look resulting in a flush.
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Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2014, 06:59:51 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Yeah the best post up moves = layups/dunks.

Anyways boys this is firmly OT, so start new topic if you'd like. This thread is about how a rookie is better than Rondo for this team.

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2014, 07:01:58 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I found this. You can rule out the ones "at rim" as far as post up goes. These will occur in the 3-9 ft range and obviously not all will be postups. So assuming 75% of the shots here were postups that would be approximately 100. He played 71 games that year so that means he averaged roughly 1.4 postup attempts a game.



Convenient logic.   Completely baseless.  But convenient.

How so?

Provide some basis for asserting that no 'at rim' shots are the results of post-ups.

You can't.  Because it is a complete fabrication on your part.

There are wide variety of post-up plays and among them, the up-and-under moves almost always result in 'at-rim' shots.  As do base-line drop-steps.  But even basic spin moves that normally result in a short jumper often result in an open look resulting in a flush.

At rim is point blank shots. KG would use mostly fadeaways, usually off his right shoulder, for his post up moves. He was never the type that would just pin you down under the basket and use his power to post you up. He was a finesse player. Now I'm not saying he wasn't a very effective player in the post. He actually was, with his combination of footwork, length, athleticism, and high release point. My point is that he way too often shied away from the inside game and preferred to stay along the perimeter. This happened throughout his career dating back to his days in Minnesota.

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #204 on: October 14, 2014, 07:32:50 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Some actual numbers on KG:


Also, for no real reason (except that I've found his passing to be similar to Rondo's), here's 38 year old Jason Williams in a pickup game:


His handles look amazing in that video.  So many little tricks in every play.  That rec league looks super fun

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #205 on: October 14, 2014, 08:17:49 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I found this. You can rule out the ones "at rim" as far as post up goes. These will occur in the 3-9 ft range and obviously not all will be postups. So assuming 75% of the shots here were postups that would be approximately 100. He played 71 games that year so that means he averaged roughly 1.4 postup attempts a game.



Convenient logic.   Completely baseless.  But convenient.

How so?

Provide some basis for asserting that no 'at rim' shots are the results of post-ups.

You can't.  Because it is a complete fabrication on your part.

There are wide variety of post-up plays and among them, the up-and-under moves almost always result in 'at-rim' shots.  As do base-line drop-steps.  But even basic spin moves that normally result in a short jumper often result in an open look resulting in a flush.

At rim is point blank shots. KG would use mostly fadeaways, usually off his right shoulder, for his post up moves. He was never the type that would just pin you down under the basket and use his power to post you up. He was a finesse player. Now I'm not saying he wasn't a very effective player in the post. He actually was, with his combination of footwork, length, athleticism, and high release point. My point is that he way too often shied away from the inside game and preferred to stay along the perimeter. This happened throughout his career dating back to his days in Minnesota.

I'm not about to disagree with any of that, but it appears that you were actually claiming that none of his 241 at the rim attempts from the season that you showed the stats for could have come from post up situations.

Obviously, you must be aware that this is a just plain ridiculous claim. 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #206 on: October 21, 2014, 02:01:41 PM »

Offline greece66

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IMHO Smart has still a lot to learn. But this is one of the positive aspects of a Rondo trade. It will give the rookie more playing time, ie more opportunities to learn from his mistakes. I d hate to see him rotting on the bench.

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #207 on: October 21, 2014, 02:22:16 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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IMHO Smart has still a lot to learn. But this is one of the positive aspects of a Rondo trade. It will give the rookie more playing time, ie more opportunities to learn from his mistakes. I d hate to see him rotting on the bench.

I don't think there's much chance of him "rotting on the bench" in his role as a back up combo guard behind Rondo and Bradley. 

I'm guessing he'll get somewhere between 20-25 MPG this coming season. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #208 on: October 21, 2014, 02:28:48 PM »

Offline greece66

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IMHO Smart has still a lot to learn. But this is one of the positive aspects of a Rondo trade. It will give the rookie more playing time, ie more opportunities to learn from his mistakes. I d hate to see him rotting on the bench.

I don't think there's much chance of him "rotting on the bench" in his role as a back up combo guard behind Rondo and Bradley. 

I'm guessing he'll get somewhere between 20-25 MPG this coming season.
Thanks for the reply. Both Rondo and AB are 30+ MPG players. And we also have ET, Pressey, Young and Thornton (some of them can also play SF but you get the point). I do not see him playing more than 10-15 MPG with Rondo in the team. Moreover, I don't really see him as a combo guard. IMHO he has to play his natural position, ie PG.

Re: I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG
« Reply #209 on: October 21, 2014, 02:38:33 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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IMHO Smart has still a lot to learn. But this is one of the positive aspects of a Rondo trade. It will give the rookie more playing time, ie more opportunities to learn from his mistakes. I d hate to see him rotting on the bench.

I don't think there's much chance of him "rotting on the bench" in his role as a back up combo guard behind Rondo and Bradley. 

I'm guessing he'll get somewhere between 20-25 MPG this coming season.
Thanks for the reply. Both Rondo and AB are 30+ MPG players. And we also have ET, Pressey, Young and Thornton (some of them can also play SF but you get the point). I do not see him playing more than 10-15 MPG with Rondo in the team. Moreover, I don't really see him as a combo guard. IMHO he has to play his natural position, ie PG.

In my honest opinion. Marcus Smart will definitely get a lot of playing time early on. He will start somewhere in 15-20 mpg from the start, and will probably move upward from there. I think Young will spend a lot of time in the D-League and Pressey's minutes will decrease as Smart gets better and chips into his minutes. ET in my opinion, we do not have to worry about. He will split his playing time between guard and forward. Maybe something like, when Smart is playing point, he plays forward or something of that...

I do not agree with "WE HAVE TO TRADE RONDO TO GIVE SMART PLAYING TIME". Smart is good, and I have high expectations for him, but trading Rondo is not really a solution. If Rondo is any of a leader, he will be teaching Smart, and Smart has an elite point guard to learn from rather than have him learn on the fly.