Pacers Rebuild

[GetLucky]

"Call me crazy but I think that team is better than the Wizards and the Raptors."

Is that the goal?  It's not crazy that Indy might consider it and Boston doesn't give away the entire store, so it's better than most trade ideas around here.  But do we really want to give away a good chunk of our assets and commit to paying Hibbert at least a near max deal just to be the 4th seed in the East?

Mike

This.  I'd rather rebuild than commit to being a 50-32 team with no future for the foreseeable future.

If we went 52-30 last year we would've been 3rd in the East and tied for 9th best record in the NBA, maybe even higher once all of our extra wins affected the records of other contenders. The two teams ahead of us, Miami and Indiana, got worse. Would you really have not liked where we were in that case? Is a likely Eastern Conference Finals and possible Finals berth not good enough for us? Do we need to have an awful team until Michael Jordan Jr. falls into our lap and LeBrondo AnBryant is made in a lab in Boston? The only real loss here is Olynyk. No one can say they'd rather have Joel Anthony over David West or Marcus Thorton over Hibbert. We would be going all in, so it does come down to preference of known commodity vs. great potential (the picks), but I'm amazed that people don't want to contend ASAP. West and Wallace would be off the books right after this year, putting us in a prime slot to sign a solid free agent.

[Moranis]

Indiana isn't making that sort of trade.  Never happen.

[loco_91]

This is a nice idea. Maybe Hibbert just needs a change of scenery. I'd rather give up Sully than KO, that team will need KO's 3pt shooting.

[Deezzyy]

Why not try and involve Minnesota into this trade
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mfcdkpf

celtics team
Rondo/smart
AB/young
Turner/brewer
West/sullinger
Pekovic / zeller

Pacers
Hill
stuckey
martin
Green
hibbert

timberwolves
Rubio
thornton/wiggins
wiggins/Thaddeus young
thaddeus young/ olynyk
Dieng

[More Banners]

"Call me crazy but I think that team is better than the Wizards and the Raptors."

Is that the goal?  It's not crazy that Indy might consider it and Boston doesn't give away the entire store, so it's better than most trade ideas around here.  But do we really want to give away a good chunk of our assets and commit to paying Hibbert at least a near max deal just to be the 4th seed in the East?

Mike

This.  I'd rather rebuild than commit to being a 50-32 team with no future for the foreseeable future.

First off, I don't give up KO in this deal, or many of them.  7 footer with skills, only going into his second year.

Second, I don't think Indy gives up Hibbert.  George/Hibbert is a duo looking for a third star.

I do see David West being quite easily on the block, and with George out this season, he's likely available now for near-nothing.

And I have no problem with fielding a playoff team this year, even with key players on that team likely rentals (like Bass might be considered, being in the last year of his deal).

After all, Rondo, Bass, and likely JGreen as well, 3 of our likely starters, are in their final years (or opt-out year, in Green's case).  Adding West would be absolutely find with me, and though I'd give up a future pick/late 1st to do it, I wouldn't give up key parts for a rental.

Players we would have readily on the block include Thornton, Favorani, and Anthony.  Throw in the lower of our 1sts one year, and include a bit of cash because Indy is cheap and will likely waive or buy them out.  And we get a one-year rental of David West.

So what if we have a playoff run like the year we traded back for Antoine and Gary Payton.  It would be good for the development of the younger players to get some burn in the playoffs.

[Endless Paradise]

I do see David West being quite easily on the block, and with George out this season, he's likely available now for near-nothing.

I don't agree at all, not at this point in the year.  Maybe if we're talking about at the deadline, if the Pacers are terrible and West has indicated to the front office that he's looking to opt out and leave Indiana.  But now?  Absolutely not.  As far as the Pacers are concerned at the moment, West has 12.6 million reasons not to opt out and as such, there's no reason to sell low on him right now.

[More Banners]

I do see David West being quite easily on the block, and with George out this season, he's likely available now for near-nothing.

I don't agree at all, not at this point in the year.  Maybe if we're talking about at the deadline, if the Pacers are terrible and West has indicated to the front office that he's looking to opt out and leave Indiana.  But now?  Absolutely not.  As far as the Pacers are concerned at the moment, West has 12.6 million reasons not to opt out and as such, there's no reason to sell low on him right now.

Indy is very, very budget conscious, though.  12.6 @ 35, with no chance to win it all this year.

If they could replace him in the lineup with Bass and take Young as a prospect, it's a no brainer for them.

Rondo/Bradley/Green/West/Zeller ain't a bad starting 5 in any book.

[Fafnir]

Pacers current plan is to make the playoffs as a low seed and hope George can come back for the playoffs.

I expect them to fall short, but they won't make moves until the deadline and even then only if their record is dire.

[Endless Paradise]

I do see David West being quite easily on the block, and with George out this season, he's likely available now for near-nothing.

I don't agree at all, not at this point in the year.  Maybe if we're talking about at the deadline, if the Pacers are terrible and West has indicated to the front office that he's looking to opt out and leave Indiana.  But now?  Absolutely not.  As far as the Pacers are concerned at the moment, West has 12.6 million reasons not to opt out and as such, there's no reason to sell low on him right now.

Indy is very, very budget conscious, though.  12.6 @ 35, with no chance to win it all this year.

If they could replace him in the lineup with Bass and take Young as a prospect, it's a no brainer for them.

Rondo/Bradley/Green/West/Zeller ain't a bad starting 5 in any book.

Well, yeah, but that trade approaches "fair value" for the Pacers more so than your initial proposal of expirings + a low first.  Considering that whole proposal was centered around the notion of West as a pseudo-expiring (that is, a potential expiring), they'd effectively be trading him for a low first rounder.  I just don't see it -- not before the deadline and even then, only if it's clear they have no shot at making the playoffs and that he doesn't want to stick around.  He's still a good, solid player, however misplaced he might ultimately be on the George-less Pacers.

That said, Indiana is budget conscious, yes -- which is why they have even more incentive to push for the playoffs.  A reasonably competitive team + playoff revenue is their best and preferred outcome.  The fans will spend to see a good team and they'll obviously spend if the team reaches the postseason.

[MBunge]

Is a likely Eastern Conference Finals and possible Finals berth not good enough for us? Do we need to have an awful team until Michael Jordan Jr. falls into our lap and LeBrondo AnBryant is made in a lab in Boston? The only real loss here is Olynyk. No one can say they'd rather have Joel Anthony over David West or Marcus Thorton over Hibbert. We would be going all in, so it does come down to preference of known commodity vs. great potential (the picks), but I'm amazed that people don't want to contend ASAP.

The team you suggest isn't a contender.  It would probably make the playoffs but beat Cleveland?  Chicago?  Heck, I'm not sure it even gets past Atlanta, forget about the best of the West.

My point is that Boston could pretty easily have a team that makes the playoffs as soon as the season after this, if not this year, by doing nothing by adding multiple first round picks again in the next draft.  You've yet to explain how your move gets us any closer to being a real contender, not just somebody happy to make the playoffs.

Mike

[MBunge]

Second, I don't think Indy gives up Hibbert.  George/Hibbert is a duo looking for a third star.

I do see David West being quite easily on the block, and with George out this season, he's likely available now for near-nothing.

And I have no problem with fielding a playoff team this year, even with key players on that team likely rentals (like Bass might be considered, being in the last year of his deal).

After all, Rondo, Bass, and likely JGreen as well, 3 of our likely starters, are in their final years (or opt-out year, in Green's case).  Adding West would be absolutely find with me, and though I'd give up a future pick/late 1st to do it, I wouldn't give up key parts for a rental.

Adding West absolutely does not guarantee the playoffs for Boston this year.  I'm not sure West will give us more than Sully will in the regular season, though I acknowledge West would likely be a far better playoff performer.

Mike

[nostar]

Basically the Pacers would be trading West and Hibbert (arguably the best defensive center) for KO and cap space?  There is NO WAY the Pacers would do that.  You might get West for some combination o that package and thrown ins but not both...

This is over simplifying things. Yes they are trading a great defensive center with severe offensive deficiencies along with an aging PF with a high cap figure. In exchange they get a ton of cap space, a really good prospect in Olynyk and two first round picks. You're also forgetting to mention that both of Indiana's players can (and at least Hibbert should) opt out next summer so they could lose them both for nothing.

Indy is very, very budget conscious, though.  12.6 @ 35, with no chance to win it all this year.

Yeah Herb Simon basically told Larry he wasn't going to pay tax.

If I were the Pacers I'd move Hibbert, West and Scola for assets and then tank to get a lotto pick. That kind of one year turn around is the same thing that the Spurs did to nab Duncan. Seems like a win to me. The problem is that with Hibbert/West/Hill the Pacers are still better than the bottom feeders in the East. They would have to really sell the farm to compete with Philly but even a top-3 pick in this draft is going to net a huge asset I think.

Now to address all of Mike's nay saying

The team you suggest isn't a contender.  It would probably make the playoffs but beat Cleveland?  Chicago?  Heck, I'm not sure it even gets past Atlanta, forget about the best of the West.

My point is that Boston could pretty easily have a team that makes the playoffs as soon as the season after this, if not this year, by doing nothing by adding multiple first round picks again in the next draft.  You've yet to explain how your move gets us any closer to being a real contender, not just somebody happy to make the playoffs.

We probably do have a fringe playoff team this year because we're in the East. I'm not sure we'll play like one for obvious reasons but talent-wise we might. If you think that Hibbert/West don't take us from a fringe playoff team to a contender I'm not sure what you think will. I actually think with those two on our team we'd be better than the Pacers were the last 2 years and I don't think it's crazy to say they were contenders.

By your logic we should not trade to make the team more competitive unless it puts us among the top 5-7 NBA teams. Or, maybe I'm misinterpreting you. Are you saying we should wait until a superstar wants to come here as a free agent? Can anyone remember the last superstar that came to Boston as a free agent? Or try to pry one of the dozens of disgruntled superstars from their teams. What is your plan? If your plan is to just wait until our draft picks turn in to super stars then I have to ask why you're hanging out in the trades section of Celticsblog.

Then you have this:

Boston could be competitive in just another year or two by doing nothing.  Does your proposal get the team better positioned to win a title?  Is is worth sacrificing all the potential moves Boston won't be able to make because of what they give away for West and Hibbert?

Bombshell!!!!!! What's that you say? Every trade we make should have the goal of positioning us to win a title? Holy cow man you're a genius! I just wanted to position us to be better volleyball players but man you're really on to something with that "competing for a title" idea. I can't believe no one before you had posted that on this board.

You think that with our numerous 1st round picks that we'll be able to compete for a title sooner than trading for good players? Do you not remember the Celtics that existed in the decade and a half prior to the trade for KG and Ray Allen?

I have to end this tirade here to trash another post you wrote about Paul George. To be continued.

[MBunge]

I have to end this tirade here to trash another post you wrote about Paul George. To be continued.

You wouldn't need a tirade if you could just defend your proposed trade.  West is aging.  Hibbert is a headcase.  It doesn't make us a real contender.  The need to resign Hibbert would probably kill Boston's short term ability to get a free agent.  If we resigned West, it kills our long term free agent prospects.

Frankly, you're proposing the equivalent of trading for Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright.  You need to have a better reason for that than "just because".

Mike

[nostar]

You wouldn't need a tirade if you could just defend your proposed trade. 

I have and am continuing to defend this proposed trade. With Hibbert and West the Pacers were clearly contending for a title. They went to the conference finals the last two years and most people considered them at least a possibility to come out of the East. You don't think taking those two starters from an Eastern Conference Finals team and putting it on a lotto team makes the lotto team better? Tell me why you don't think that? And give me some evidence of why we'd wouldn't be better if you don't mind.

West is aging.  Hibbert is a headcase.  It doesn't make us a real contender.

Hilariously you haven't actually given any evidence supporting your claim that we wouldn't be any better. Because West is old? Age doesn't mean that players aren't good. It can actually mean the contrary. Both the Spurs and the Heat were in the top-10 in average age last season. The top-5 youngest teams all ended up in the lotto. West in particular is still very productive having a PER better than Stephenson, Howard, Lawson and Deron Williams.

Hibbert might be a headcase but while being a headcase he managed to be one of the best defensive centers in the league and helped lead his team to back-to-back conference finals games.

The need to resign Hibbert would probably kill Boston's short term ability to get a free agent.

What free agent would we not be able to sign? Which free agent is dying to come play in Boston that would be better than Roy Hibbert? Do go on with all of your insight.

If we resigned West, it kills our long term free agent prospects.

How would it kill our "free agent prospects". What salary would we sign him for and how many years. I'm really curious how you know this. Please get back to me with all of your prognostications.

[MBunge]

You wouldn't need a tirade if you could just defend your proposed trade. 

I have and am continuing to defend this proposed trade. With Hibbert and West the Pacers were clearly contending for a title.

No, they were contending to get out of the East and didn't even do that.  And you've essentially admitted that your trade DOESN'T make Boston a real "contender".

Again, what's the point?

Mike