Tank City USA - Boston

[Moranis]

I want to win titles.  I don't want to put out a mediocre product year after year because the team is too afraid to lose or too afraid to give up a ton of assets to land a star.  I'd much rather be in Philly's position than ours.  At least Philly's ownership and management have established a clear direction and they went all in on that direction.  Boston is poised for a second straight year of bad, but not bad enough, basketball.  That serves no purpose at all.  That is what is disgusting to me.

[nickagneta]

I want to win titles.  I don't want to put out a mediocre product year after year because the team is too afraid to lose or too afraid to give up a ton of assets to land a star.  I'd much rather be in Philly's position than ours.  At least Philly's ownership and management have established a clear direction and they went all in on that direction.  Boston is poised for a second straight year of bad, but not bad enough, basketball.  That serves no purpose at all.  That is what is disgusting to me.

I see what Philly has done and only see the 1980's and 1990's Clippers. All in indeed. for 20 years of suckitude

[Donoghus]

The only thing that Philly has done so far is put together an all-star team of "potential".  Hasn't paid an ounce of dividends yet unless you count one season's "sucktitude" leading to another high pick of "untapped potential".  On paper it might look good, but it hasn't translated to anything yet.

[fairweatherfan]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
EDIT:  Eh, Dons beat me to it.


Philly is a textbook example of how many fans value potential success over actual success.  Potential comes a whole lot cheaper. 

[Mr October]

I want to win titles.  I don't want to put out a mediocre product year after year because the team is too afraid to lose or too afraid to give up a ton of assets to land a star.  I'd much rather be in Philly's position than ours.  At least Philly's ownership and management have established a clear direction and they went all in on that direction.  Boston is poised for a second straight year of bad, but not bad enough, basketball.  That serves no purpose at all.  That is what is disgusting to me.

I see what Philly has done and only see the 1980's and 1990's Clippers. All in indeed. for 20 years of suckitude

Yeah, Philly probably has a higher chance of becoming a revolving door for talent then they do of becoming a year in year out contender for a title. Meanwhile their fans get to watch and pay for tickets to another embarrassing season. That team is going to win 14-20 games tops, and do so when the east is about as bad as it has ever been.

Sign me up for being not impressed with Philly. I am glad to be a Celtic fan.

Wake me up in half a decade when maybe just maybe the Sixers will reach 50 wins.

[boscel33]

I want to win titles.  I don't want to put out a mediocre product year after year because the team is too afraid to lose or too afraid to give up a ton of assets to land a star.  I'd much rather be in Philly's position than ours.  At least Philly's ownership and management have established a clear direction and they went all in on that direction.  Boston is poised for a second straight year of bad, but not bad enough, basketball.  That serves no purpose at all.  That is what is disgusting to me.

I want to win titles too, but I want to do it over a longer period of time.  It seems as though we were ripped off and probably should have had at least one if not two more during the PP, KG, RA era here.

I don't want the one and done, so my instructions to Danny, build a team that can win over a long duration.  If that means sucking for two to three years, I'm in.

[Moranis]

The only thing that Philly has done so far is put together an all-star team of "potential".  Hasn't paid an ounce of dividends yet unless you count one season's "sucktitude" leading to another high pick of "untapped potential".  On paper it might look good, but it hasn't translated to anything yet.

Yeah but that is a better position than Boston who has an injured older Rondo in the last year of his contract and the possibility that Marcus Smart might be very good.  You know what everyone else is and they aren't superstars.  Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Boston doesn't have that.  It has a year where it was a bad team, but not so bad that it could land a top 5 talent (just one less win and the team has Exum - now sure Smart might end up better than Exum, but I think most people right now think Exum is a better prospect).  This year Boston looks to be a 22-28 win team again.  What is the point in that.  Either be very very bad or be good.  This mid level lottery team is just not a position to be in.

[MBunge]

Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Noel is not going to "easily" win rookie of the year when Jabari Parker, a player vastly superior, is also in the running.  Embiid has about as much chance of never playing a fuly season for Philly as he does winning rookie of the year two seasons down the road.  I believe Ricky Rubio was also "one of the best players in Europe".  And as for that reigning rookie of the year?

Evan Turner per 36 minute stats last season -
.425%
.321% from three
6.5 rebounds
3.8 assists
1 steal
2.8 turnovers
16.6 points

Michael Carter Williams per 36 minute stats last season -
.405%
.264% from three
6.5 rebounds
6.6 assists
1.9 steals
3.7 turnovers
17.4 points

And MCW is three years younger but he's 22 to Turner's 25, so it's not like he's 19 or something.

Mike

[Mr October]

The only thing that Philly has done so far is put together an all-star team of "potential".  Hasn't paid an ounce of dividends yet unless you count one season's "sucktitude" leading to another high pick of "untapped potential".  On paper it might look good, but it hasn't translated to anything yet.

Yeah but that is a better position than Boston who has an injured older Rondo in the last year of his contract and the possibility that Marcus Smart might be very good.  You know what everyone else is and they aren't superstars.  Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Boston doesn't have that.  It has a year where it was a bad team, but not so bad that it could land a top 5 talent (just one less win and the team has Exum - now sure Smart might end up better than Exum, but I think most people right now think Exum is a better prospect).  This year Boston looks to be a 22-28 win team again.  What is the point in that.  Either be very very bad or be good.  This mid level lottery team is just not a position to be in.

I would rather have Smart than Carter-Williams. I am jealous of Noel and Embiid for sure. But that is all i am envious of concerning Philly. lets let Philly develop those guys get them healthy, and then when they want to bail, we can swoop in an sign them. 

If the Celtics win 22-28 games they will probably land the top 5 pick you want. Next years draft could be loaded with bigs up and down the lottery.

What should the Celtics be doing to getting to title contention faster?
Or what do you want to see them do to tank as hard as Philly?

[LooseCannon]

As always, I'll be rooting for the Celtics to win every time they step on the floor. 

I could not imagine ever hoping the team lost, I'd feel ashamed.

I agree - can't imagine wanting this team to lose.  If they do because they're not very good, so be it, but I can't understand not wanting to see the team win. 

as much as the team's talent level is knocked here and their likelihood of winning games is much less than in the latter part of the PP/KG years, at least this team doesn't mail it in like those prior years.  when these guys lose it's not from a lack of effort.  that I can deal with.  losing because players don't put in their best effort is intolerable

Or losing because that is the plan coming from the front office like during that ML Carr year or latein 2007 when Danny and Doc were holding out a healthy Al Jefferson and Paul Pierce until after they clinched the league's 2nd worst record. I found those years disgusting to watch.

I'm okay with holding them out after the season had become a lost cause.  I am totally against going into the season and treating it as a lost cause from the get-go (unless you are already facing overwhelming injury problems).

[Rondo9]

The only thing that Philly has done so far is put together an all-star team of "potential".  Hasn't paid an ounce of dividends yet unless you count one season's "sucktitude" leading to another high pick of "untapped potential".  On paper it might look good, but it hasn't translated to anything yet.

Yeah but that is a better position than Boston who has an injured older Rondo in the last year of his contract and the possibility that Marcus Smart might be very good.  You know what everyone else is and they aren't superstars.  Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Boston doesn't have that.  It has a year where it was a bad team, but not so bad that it could land a top 5 talent (just one less win and the team has Exum - now sure Smart might end up better than Exum, but I think most people right now think Exum is a better prospect).  This year Boston looks to be a 22-28 win team again.  What is the point in that.  Either be very very bad or be good.  This mid level lottery team is just not a position to be in.

I would rather have Smart than Carter-Williams. I am jealous of Noel and Embiid for sure. But that is all i am envious of concerning Philly. lets let Philly develop those guys get them healthy, and then when they want to bail, we can swoop in an sign them. 

If the Celtics win 22-28 games they will probably land the top 5 pick you want. Next years draft could be loaded with bigs up and down the lottery.

What should the Celtics be doing to getting to title contention faster?
Or what do you want to see them do to tank as hard as Philly?

Embiid has some red flags due to injuries, I'm not really jealous at all.

[fairweatherfan]

The only thing that Philly has done so far is put together an all-star team of "potential".  Hasn't paid an ounce of dividends yet unless you count one season's "sucktitude" leading to another high pick of "untapped potential".  On paper it might look good, but it hasn't translated to anything yet.

Yeah but that is a better position than Boston who has an injured older Rondo in the last year of his contract and the possibility that Marcus Smart might be very good.  You know what everyone else is and they aren't superstars.  Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Boston doesn't have that.  It has a year where it was a bad team, but not so bad that it could land a top 5 talent (just one less win and the team has Exum - now sure Smart might end up better than Exum, but I think most people right now think Exum is a better prospect).  This year Boston looks to be a 22-28 win team again.  What is the point in that.  Either be very very bad or be good.  This mid level lottery team is just not a position to be in.

That's an awful lot of "might"s and "could"s to give Philly the edge, which is what Dons and I mean about potential being overweighted. 

Here's the case for our side as I see it:

- We have veterans who can help with young player development.  This is the single biggest downside to Philly's approach that gets ignored.  Centering your team around a bunch of rookie contract guys all trying to put up big numbers to cash in on their 2nd contract - guys who also know wins aren't what your organization wants right now - and supplementing them with a bunch of D-Leaguers just clinging to the league is a recipe for terrible habits, selfishness, and discord.  This isn't fantasy ball - environment and culture is crucial for young guys.

- We have assets we haven't used yet, unlike Philly who's completely sold off all their established talent.  There's "potential" that goes unaccounted for - we can still make meaningful trades.

- A "could" on our side - Marcus Smart could also be rookie of the year (which you aren't factoring in) or more importantly, wind up better than whoever wins it. 

- Unlike Philly many of our first round picks aren't based on our own team's performance.  We can play to win and get better and still get good picks if Brooklyn implodes.  We also have many more 1sts than Philly does right now, which gives us more to use in deals and a better chance to take risks later in the round.  Philly has no choice but to suck and then flip the magic "reverse winning %" switch a few years later.

I prefer our position both in the short-term and the long-term.  I think Philly, and people who support Philly's approach, are going to find out over the next few years what the success rate on "might"s and "could"s tends to be.

[nickagneta]

My hope is the Philly approach so p!sses off their young talent because they can never win that Nerlens Noel decides to come home and sign with Boston after his rookie contract.

If so, then thanks Philly approach!!!

[Moranis]

Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Noel is not going to "easily" win rookie of the year when Jabari Parker, a player vastly superior, is also in the running.  Embiid has about as much chance of never playing a fuly season for Philly as he does winning rookie of the year two seasons down the road.  I believe Ricky Rubio was also "one of the best players in Europe".  And as for that reigning rookie of the year?

Evan Turner per 36 minute stats last season -
.425%
.321% from three
6.5 rebounds
3.8 assists
1 steal
2.8 turnovers
16.6 points

Michael Carter Williams per 36 minute stats last season -
.405%
.264% from three
6.5 rebounds
6.6 assists
1.9 steals
3.7 turnovers
17.4 points

And MCW is three years younger but he's 22 to Turner's 25, so it's not like he's 19 or something.

Mike

here are some other per 36 numbers for R.O.Y. wings (and Lillard since he was the 2nd most recent)

Lillard
17.8 p, 2.9 r, 6.0 a, 0.8 s, 2.8 t, 42.9/36.8

Evans
19.5 p, 5.1 r, 5.6 a, 1.5 s, 2.9 t, 45.8/25.5

Rose
16.3 p, 3.8 r, 6.1 a, 0.8 s, 2.4 t, 47.5/22.2

Durant
21.1 p, 4.5 r, 2.5 a, 1.0 s, 3.0 t, 43.0/28.8

Roy
17.1 p, 4.5 r, 4.1 a, 1.2 s, 2.1 t, 45.6/37.7

James
19.1 p, 5.0 r, 5.4 a, 1.5 s, 3.1 t, 41.7/29.0


I have no idea if MCW will end up more like Tyreke Evans or Lebron James, but to somehow act like his rookies stats are bad by coming him to Evan Turner, doesn't exactly prove your point when he compares very favorably with Lebron James, Kevin Durant, and Derrick Rose's rookie seasons.  I mean unless you don't think the last 6 MVP award winners are good basketball players anyway.

[Moranis]

The only thing that Philly has done so far is put together an all-star team of "potential".  Hasn't paid an ounce of dividends yet unless you count one season's "sucktitude" leading to another high pick of "untapped potential".  On paper it might look good, but it hasn't translated to anything yet.

Yeah but that is a better position than Boston who has an injured older Rondo in the last year of his contract and the possibility that Marcus Smart might be very good.  You know what everyone else is and they aren't superstars.  Philly has the reigning rookie of the year in MCW, has a guy who very easily could win the rookie of the year in Noel, has another guy that might win the rookie of the year next year (already on the team), one of the best players in Europe, and will very likely have another top 5 pick next year. 

Boston doesn't have that.  It has a year where it was a bad team, but not so bad that it could land a top 5 talent (just one less win and the team has Exum - now sure Smart might end up better than Exum, but I think most people right now think Exum is a better prospect).  This year Boston looks to be a 22-28 win team again.  What is the point in that.  Either be very very bad or be good.  This mid level lottery team is just not a position to be in.

I would rather have Smart than Carter-Williams. I am jealous of Noel and Embiid for sure. But that is all i am envious of concerning Philly. lets let Philly develop those guys get them healthy, and then when they want to bail, we can swoop in an sign them. 

If the Celtics win 22-28 games they will probably land the top 5 pick you want. Next years draft could be loaded with bigs up and down the lottery.

What should the Celtics be doing to getting to title contention faster?
Or what do you want to see them do to tank as hard as Philly?

probably too late to do much of anything at this point, but at the trade deadline last year, I would have been very aggressive in either adding to the roster or dumping veterans, which would have then continued into this summer.