Author Topic: Tank City USA - Boston  (Read 26093 times)

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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2014, 10:31:38 AM »

Online Donoghus

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In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

For some people, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are two of the easiest examples. Kobe Bryant's Blue Period (post-Shaq, pre-Pau) is another.

Yeah, I think Melo is the easiest argument to make these days.    Iverson was a huge lightening rod for that.

EDIT:  George McGinnis comes to mind. Helluva scorer but a helluva turnover machine too.


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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2014, 10:36:39 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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And, in both of those cases, the people making the arguments are probably doing it to vindicate a viewpoint, rather than actually look at it with any sort of reasonable expectation that they might be wrong.

Anthony in New York has been a good example: The Knicks are typically terrible in spite of his play, not because of it. The numbers bear that out, but it doesn't fit with the storyline that people concoct around hoops, so the converse is parroted instead.

edit to edit: I'm too young to have seen McGinnis, so I'll take your word for it.
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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2014, 10:40:24 AM »

Online Donoghus

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And, in both of those cases, the people making the arguments are probably doing it to vindicate a viewpoint, rather than actually look at it with any sort of reasonable expectation that they might be wrong.

Anthony in New York has been a good example: The Knicks are typically terrible in spite of his play, not because of it. The numbers bear that out, but it doesn't fit with the storyline that people concoct around hoops, so the converse is parroted instead.

edit to edit: I'm too young to have seen McGinnis, so I'll take your word for it.

Well, of course it's completely subjective.  The argument usually swings one of two ways depending on POV;  he's doing his best but his teammates blow or he's getting his but not doing anything to make the people around him better.

Like anything else, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle more than anything.


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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2014, 10:45:16 AM »

Offline chambers

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A lot of people are ragging on Phillies strategy and team but if you compared their roster to ours, both teams having 'potential' in the sense of what their players might one day achieve as NBA players....I find it pretty reasonable to say that they likely have more All Stars and higher ceilings than our squad.
Obviously that potential has to be reached on both teams but they do have a very nice haul of assets there.
Who on our squad under the age of 25 has the potential to be an All Star vs the philly squad?

Smart
Sullinger
Bradley
James Young
Olynyk.

With sully and smart as the go to guys of potential.

Philly:
Noel
Embid
Mcw
Saric
McDaniels
Jerami Grant

If we had the above rosters swap uniforms and there was no Rondo, I think a lot of critics would be talking about how hopeless the Celtics future would be.
I'll make a topic on the realGM general board for some more opinion but I personally wouldn't be upset with the above roster with those two big men, saric,mcw and a top 4 2015 pick.

If you are going to throw Grant and McDaniels in there, you might as well add Zeller and Powell to the Celtics list. You are right that Philly's roster overall probably has more potential from its young guys, but who knows if it will work out for them. Their organization doesn't have the greatest reputation, and it could fall apart on them in a bad way. I think MCW was overrated his rookie year. Noel will be good, imo. Embiid will be great if he remains injury free, but that is hardly a given unfortunately. Saric? I mean he has good potential, but he's not off the charts or anything. Honestly the main difference maker in terms of potential between the two rosters is Embiid, and he has huge injury question marks. Other than that neither is way ahead of the other in terms of potential. If anything, our guys have more skill, which I appreciate.

I hear you, but I think the 76ers are way ahead of us in terms of potential.
They have far more all star potential than our crew- McDaniels will start for them at SF most likely after dropping significantly in the draft.
Embid is the best big man in the draft since Anthony Davis and the best center since DeMarcus Cousins (as a more complete player given his defensive dominance and combined skill on both ends).
They have Embid, Noel,MCW and Saric as the elite young core. We have Smart and Sullinger and Olynyk as our potential elites under 25.
I'd have to say I'd gamble on the 4 above over our 3. We are lucky that we'll have a good shot at retaining Rondo. Still going to need valuable trade assets or 2 of the above to turn into near All Stars at the very least.

I just think it's important to look at our own situation and if you think it's fair to criticize them then look at our roster and other than Smart and Sully we aren't really looking at any future All Stars.
They'll also likely have a better pick this season vs our pick.


Michael carter Williams rookie comparison for y'all.....
Carter Williams: 17.4 points, 6.6 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 steals, 24.6% 3 pt, 40.5% FG
Per 36 minutes mystery player: 17.6 points 3 assists 4.3 rebounds 1.6 steals, 37.5% 3 pt,  41.7% FG = ???


Kobe.

MCW was 22.  Kobe was 18.  Want to compare his stats to what Kobe was doing at 22 on a Laker team that won 56 games?

Mike

No, we can't do that until MCW has been in the league for 4 years, silly.
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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2014, 11:00:25 AM »

Offline Moranis

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In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

For some people, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are two of the easiest examples. Kobe Bryant's Blue Period (post-Shaq, pre-Pau) is another.
But those are pretty silly examples.  I mean did you look at the teams those guys were on.  Someone needed to score.  In fact if any one of those players was on Boston last year, Boston likely makes the playoffs.  There is nothing wrong with being a #1 scorer.  When said #1 scorer is on a bad team he is less efficient of course, but somebody needs to shoot.  I mean 2 of Iverson's 3 most efficient seasons are when he was playing Anthony in Denver (Melo's best shooting season was Iverson's full season in Denver as well).

Kevin Durant shot 28.8% from three and 45.5% from two his rookie year.  Next year with Westbrook on the team taking more of the scoring load he improves to 42.2% from three and 48.6% from two.  His two point percentage has never been below 50% since though that was his career high from three he never came any where near his rookie shooting percentage.  Now sure some of that is being a rookie, but the vast majority of the increase is having a guy like Westbrook on the team that can shoulder some of the burden allowing both to take better shots and increase their percentages.

Being a volume scorer on a bad team is not a bad thing.  Being a volume scorer on a good team is.  You just can't know what type of a player a person is after one year in the league.  Frankly you might not know for years.  I mean is Kevin Love a guy putting up big numbers on a bad team or is really good but just doesn't have good enough teammates.  Lebron James is the rare player that is so good, he can take crappy teammates to the NBA Finals virtually by himself, he is the exception not the rule.
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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2014, 11:26:34 AM »

Offline gpap

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In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

For some people, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are two of the easiest examples. Kobe Bryant's Blue Period (post-Shaq, pre-Pau) is another.
But those are pretty silly examples.  I mean did you look at the teams those guys were on.  Someone needed to score.  In fact if any one of those players was on Boston last year, Boston likely makes the playoffs.  There is nothing wrong with being a #1 scorer.  When said #1 scorer is on a bad team he is less efficient of course, but somebody needs to shoot.  I mean 2 of Iverson's 3 most efficient seasons are when he was playing Anthony in Denver (Melo's best shooting season was Iverson's full season in Denver as well).

Kevin Durant shot 28.8% from three and 45.5% from two his rookie year.  Next year with Westbrook on the team taking more of the scoring load he improves to 42.2% from three and 48.6% from two.  His two point percentage has never been below 50% since though that was his career high from three he never came any where near his rookie shooting percentage.  Now sure some of that is being a rookie, but the vast majority of the increase is having a guy like Westbrook on the team that can shoulder some of the burden allowing both to take better shots and increase their percentages.

Being a volume scorer on a bad team is not a bad thing.  Being a volume scorer on a good team is.  You just can't know what type of a player a person is after one year in the league.  Frankly you might not know for years.  I mean is Kevin Love a guy putting up big numbers on a bad team or is really good but just doesn't have good enough teammates.  Lebron James is the rare player that is so good, he can take crappy teammates to the NBA Finals virtually by himself, he is the exception not the rule.

And that's what made me question this "good player on a bad team" label that some people direct at players they don't feel are that good.

It drove me nuts this summer when some people would say "why would the Celts want Kevin Love? He just pads stats on a really bad team and is overrated, yada yada."

Well, my respone would be if the TWolves still suck even though Love is putting the numbers on the board, that speaks alot more about how bad the rest of the team is and alot less about how Kevin Love is allegedly "sellfish" or "stat padding" or whatever word you want to use.

Brian Scalabrine was on the 2008 championship team yet contributed absolutely nothing.

If being a "good player on a bad team" is a negative then is being a "bad player on a good team" what everyone should strive for?

Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2014, 11:34:19 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

For some people, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are two of the easiest examples. Kobe Bryant's Blue Period (post-Shaq, pre-Pau) is another.
But those are pretty silly examples.  I mean did you look at the teams those guys were on.  Someone needed to score.  In fact if any one of those players was on Boston last year, Boston likely makes the playoffs.  There is nothing wrong with being a #1 scorer.  When said #1 scorer is on a bad team he is less efficient of course, but somebody needs to shoot.  I mean 2 of Iverson's 3 most efficient seasons are when he was playing Anthony in Denver (Melo's best shooting season was Iverson's full season in Denver as well).

Kevin Durant shot 28.8% from three and 45.5% from two his rookie year.  Next year with Westbrook on the team taking more of the scoring load he improves to 42.2% from three and 48.6% from two.  His two point percentage has never been below 50% since though that was his career high from three he never came any where near his rookie shooting percentage.  Now sure some of that is being a rookie, but the vast majority of the increase is having a guy like Westbrook on the team that can shoulder some of the burden allowing both to take better shots and increase their percentages.

Being a volume scorer on a bad team is not a bad thing.  Being a volume scorer on a good team is.  You just can't know what type of a player a person is after one year in the league.  Frankly you might not know for years.  I mean is Kevin Love a guy putting up big numbers on a bad team or is really good but just doesn't have good enough teammates.  Lebron James is the rare player that is so good, he can take crappy teammates to the NBA Finals virtually by himself, he is the exception not the rule.

I agree with you.


MCW was 22.  Kobe was 18.  Want to compare his stats to what Kobe was doing at 22 on a Laker team that won 56 games?

Mike

No, we can't do that until MCW has been in the league for 4 years, silly.

Gotta agree with Chambers here -- when the age disparity is that large, judging them by their NBA experience makes a little more sense.
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Re: Tank City USA - Boston
« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2015, 05:52:45 AM »

Offline cb8883

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I told you guys the only way to secure a good future was to a proper tank much like Philadelphia. For weeks you have mentioned to me that it didn't work for them. Did they get Okafor? Well, yes...yes they did. How does it feel that essentially our entire draft is full of combo guards? That's what happens when you don't tank! The thoughts of free agents coming here? Come on be realistic, no one is coming through that door not even Monroe. The Celtics are a second class destination for these players at best. The one way to make it a top destination is to draft and keep these players here. If CBS or Danny aren't on board with doing the right thing thenn Wyc needs to be a man and show them the door.