Author Topic: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?  (Read 10514 times)

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Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2014, 03:49:23 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I don't think his value is low because of his injury.  I think it's just that there has always been a belief around the league that he was the beneficiary of great players, a great system, and a great coach.  Now that he's leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record, he's basically been exposed for what a lot of people thought he always was... a really good PG with major flaws.  I doubt he makes another all-star team.

I just don't understand this belief. First, I don't believe All-Star Rondo was completely a product of his environment. His great performances were too dominant. He wasn't just knocking down open shots or anything. And as far as last year, we weren't expecting 100% Rondo, right? He'll definitely be much better than last year. I just don't see how a recovering from a torn ACL player is "exposed" as not being that good. Unless you think the injury has a permanent effect on his game. But that's not been our experience with that particular injury.

If Rondo really was a product of the great players around him, it will be this year, not last, that we will find out.

Beyond Bernard King, which players have recovered 100% from ACL injuries?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2014, 03:53:28 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Well....we know what happens if he don't.


Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2014, 04:29:37 PM »

Offline gift

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I don't think his value is low because of his injury.  I think it's just that there has always been a belief around the league that he was the beneficiary of great players, a great system, and a great coach.  Now that he's leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record, he's basically been exposed for what a lot of people thought he always was... a really good PG with major flaws.  I doubt he makes another all-star team.

I just don't understand this belief. First, I don't believe All-Star Rondo was completely a product of his environment. His great performances were too dominant. He wasn't just knocking down open shots or anything. And as far as last year, we weren't expecting 100% Rondo, right? He'll definitely be much better than last year. I just don't see how a recovering from a torn ACL player is "exposed" as not being that good. Unless you think the injury has a permanent effect on his game. But that's not been our experience with that particular injury.

If Rondo really was a product of the great players around him, it will be this year, not last, that we will find out.

Beyond Bernard King, which players have recovered 100% from ACL injuries?

Al Harrington
Bonzi Wells
Ricky Rubio
Al Jefferson
Baron Davis
David West
Jamal Crawford
Kyle Lowry

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2014, 04:31:41 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Clearly we have different opinions on what constitutes "recovered 100%".
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2014, 05:11:36 PM »

Offline mgent

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I don't really see how you can sensibly argue with a single one of those.  Throw our boy Tony up there as well.
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Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »

Offline mgent

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I don't think his value is low because of his injury.  I think it's just that there has always been a belief around the league that he was the beneficiary of great players, a great system, and a great coach.  Now that he's leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record, he's basically been exposed for what a lot of people thought he always was... a really good PG with major flaws.  I doubt he makes another all-star team.

I just don't understand this belief. First, I don't believe All-Star Rondo was completely a product of his environment. His great performances were too dominant. He wasn't just knocking down open shots or anything. And as far as last year, we weren't expecting 100% Rondo, right? He'll definitely be much better than last year. I just don't see how a recovering from a torn ACL player is "exposed" as not being that good. Unless you think the injury has a permanent effect on his game. But that's not been our experience with that particular injury.

If Rondo really was a product of the great players around him, it will be this year, not last, that we will find out.
Great points, especially that one.

It's not safe to say that ACL injuries don't have permanent effects on athletes, but it's probably pretty safe to say it would have been much more noticeable his first year back if Rondo was permanently troubled.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2014, 05:22:45 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I don't think his value is low because of his injury.  I think it's just that there has always been a belief around the league that he was the beneficiary of great players, a great system, and a great coach.  Now that he's leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record, he's basically been exposed for what a lot of people thought he always was... a really good PG with major flaws.  I doubt he makes another all-star team.

Re: The present tense of the assertion in bold.   

Are you asserting that Rondo is, at this moment, leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record?  That seems strange to say since the team is not, at this moment, playing basketball.

Did you mean to suggest that Rondo was responsible for leading last year's team to a bottom 5 record?

Or are you suggesting that he is going to lead this coming season's team to a bottom 5 record?

Or both?

Was Kevin Love exposed as "a really good PF with major flaws" for "leading a bunch of bums to a 17 win season in 2010-11?  Or a 26 win season in 2011-12?

Was Kevin Durant exposed as "a really good SF with major flaws" for "leading a bunch of bums to a 20 win season in 2007-08?  Or a 23 win season in 2008-09?

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2014, 05:43:31 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I don't really see how you can sensibly argue with a single one of those.  Throw our boy Tony up there as well.

The argument isn't that players can't continue to play at an NBA level -- it's that they made a full recovery.

Rubio, in particular, hasn't looked the same since tearing his ACL. Tony Allen and Baron Davis never 'really' recovered from theirs. Al Jefferson just played worse than people expected until his ceiling got adjusted accordingly.

So now we're batting .500 on a cherrypicked list of the eight players that you could maybe say came back from an ACL injury, since the list of NBA players who have torn their ACLs is significantly larger than that.

Occasionally, people actually win the lottery. That doesn't make it a common occurrence.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2014, 05:49:37 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I don't think his value is low because of his injury.  I think it's just that there has always been a belief around the league that he was the beneficiary of great players, a great system, and a great coach.  Now that he's leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record, he's basically been exposed for what a lot of people thought he always was... a really good PG with major flaws.  I doubt he makes another all-star team.

Re: The present tense of the assertion in bold.   

Are you asserting that Rondo is, at this moment, leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record?  That seems strange to say since the team is not, at this moment, playing basketball.

Did you mean to suggest that Rondo was responsible for leading last year's team to a bottom 5 record?

Or are you suggesting that he is going to lead this coming season's team to a bottom 5 record?

Or both?

Was Kevin Love exposed as "a really good PF with major flaws" for "leading a bunch of bums to a 17 win season in 2010-11?  Or a 26 win season in 2011-12?

Was Kevin Durant exposed as "a really good SF with major flaws" for "leading a bunch of bums to a 20 win season in 2007-08?  Or a 23 win season in 2008-09?
I think what you mean to say is that having a bottom 5 record doesn't necessarily reveal much about the best player on the team. The previous poster was saying that this team will verify the flaws that people were already saying that Rondo had. People were not talking about Durant that way. Durant was also just getting started in the NBA, a few years from his prime.

Regardless, last year is meaningless for evaluating Rondo as it was his recovery year. This year is what matters. Now he is on the clock. Wins will not be the deciding factor in evaluating him as this team lacks players. But he will need to contribute more this year than last year as he has had plenty of time to return to peak physical condition.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2014, 05:51:50 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I don't really see how you can sensibly argue with a single one of those.  Throw our boy Tony up there as well.
I was about to add him to the list before I got to this comment.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2014, 06:27:06 PM »

Offline gift

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I don't really see how you can sensibly argue with a single one of those.  Throw our boy Tony up there as well.

The argument isn't that players can't continue to play at an NBA level -- it's that they made a full recovery.

Rubio, in particular, hasn't looked the same since tearing his ACL. Tony Allen and Baron Davis never 'really' recovered from theirs. Al Jefferson just played worse than people expected until his ceiling got adjusted accordingly.

So now we're batting .500 on a cherrypicked list of the eight players that you could maybe say came back from an ACL injury, since the list of NBA players who have torn their ACLs is significantly larger than that.

Occasionally, people actually win the lottery. That doesn't make it a common occurrence.

You do know a few players on that list, like Baron Davis, had the injury entirely before their pro careers, right? Also, a few of them had their best seasons after the injury. Sure, you can cherrypick the list as well as anyone can. But I think I provided solid examples.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2014, 06:29:55 PM »

Offline mgent

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I don't really see how you can sensibly argue with a single one of those.  Throw our boy Tony up there as well.

The argument isn't that players can't continue to play at an NBA level -- it's that they made a full recovery.

Rubio, in particular, hasn't looked the same since tearing his ACL. Tony Allen and Baron Davis never 'really' recovered from theirs. Al Jefferson just played worse than people expected until his ceiling got adjusted accordingly.

So now we're batting .500 on a cherrypicked list of the eight players that you could maybe say came back from an ACL injury, since the list of NBA players who have torn their ACLs is significantly larger than that.

Occasionally, people actually win the lottery. That doesn't make it a common occurrence.
So just because they haven't looked the same to you?  Despite recovering statistically?

Rubio shot 36% his first two years, there's not a lot for him to come back to.  He's still got his assists, his rebounds, and his garbage buckets.  Plus a guy hampered by his leg doesn't usually continue to average 2.3 steals for the full 82 games.

Tony Allen is a perennial all-NBA first defense.  Post-ACL he transformed his game to the point that he's no longer known as Turnover-Tony and is now actually respected on Celticsblog.  The biggest problem guys coming back from ACL have is lack of explosiveness, so I guess I can't figure out what Tony is missing.  He's still one of the most explosive players in the league and one of the best in lateral quickness.

Big Al went from a 20-10-50% guy to a 20-10-50% guy, who also cut back on turnovers and improved his passing.  Not to mention now he's doing it on a playoff team rather than the worst team in the league.

I'm not sure if Baron Davis was an MVP candidate before his injury (I can guess), but he managed to put together a bunch of 20-8 seasons and some all-star appearances after.

If those aren't full recoveries then what is?  If they didn't recover to 100% then they surely recovered to 98%.
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Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2014, 06:31:20 PM »

Offline gift

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I don't think his value is low because of his injury.  I think it's just that there has always been a belief around the league that he was the beneficiary of great players, a great system, and a great coach.  Now that he's leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record, he's basically been exposed for what a lot of people thought he always was... a really good PG with major flaws.  I doubt he makes another all-star team.

Re: The present tense of the assertion in bold.   

Are you asserting that Rondo is, at this moment, leading a bunch of bums to a bottom 5 record?  That seems strange to say since the team is not, at this moment, playing basketball.

Did you mean to suggest that Rondo was responsible for leading last year's team to a bottom 5 record?

Or are you suggesting that he is going to lead this coming season's team to a bottom 5 record?

Or both?

Was Kevin Love exposed as "a really good PF with major flaws" for "leading a bunch of bums to a 17 win season in 2010-11?  Or a 26 win season in 2011-12?

Was Kevin Durant exposed as "a really good SF with major flaws" for "leading a bunch of bums to a 20 win season in 2007-08?  Or a 23 win season in 2008-09?
I think what you mean to say is that having a bottom 5 record doesn't necessarily reveal much about the best player on the team. The previous poster was saying that this team will verify the flaws that people were already saying that Rondo had. People were not talking about Durant that way. Durant was also just getting started in the NBA, a few years from his prime.

Regardless, last year is meaningless for evaluating Rondo as it was his recovery year. This year is what matters. Now he is on the clock. Wins will not be the deciding factor in evaluating him as this team lacks players. But he will need to contribute more this year than last year as he has had plenty of time to return to peak physical condition.

This is what I'm saying. Last year was a throw away. If you believe Rondo was never that great, this coming year is the one to use as evidence.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2014, 06:32:05 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think Rondo played enough last year to show that from a health stand point, he is going to be fine.  I think the biggest issue for him is that he is going to be trying to "lead" a young, poorly constructed team with limited talent.  His value is not going to go up or down all that much.  He is a good player that can help an established veteran team.

As to the chorus of "keep Rondo", I don't think he is very likely to choose to sign with the Celtics.  It is not as easy as to say let's just decide to keep him.  He will be a free agent who we will need to 'attract' to the Celtics, who will likely still be a young, poorly constructed team with limited talent.

Re: What if Rondo completely reestablishes his value?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2014, 06:32:54 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I don't really see how you can sensibly argue with a single one of those.  Throw our boy Tony up there as well.

The argument isn't that players can't continue to play at an NBA level -- it's that they made a full recovery.

Rubio, in particular, hasn't looked the same since tearing his ACL. Tony Allen and Baron Davis never 'really' recovered from theirs. Al Jefferson just played worse than people expected until his ceiling got adjusted accordingly.

So now we're batting .500 on a cherrypicked list of the eight players that you could maybe say came back from an ACL injury, since the list of NBA players who have torn their ACLs is significantly larger than that.

Occasionally, people actually win the lottery. That doesn't make it a common occurrence.

  I'd say Tony Allen recovered very well from his knee injury, but his game evolved somewhat so you see fewer "athletic" drives to the hoop. Perimeter players with gimpy legs generally don't finish top 6 in DPOY voting 3 years in a row. I'd also argue that Big Al, though he took a while, came back all the way as well, and I doubt the book's  closed on Rubio.