Author Topic: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.  (Read 16353 times)

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Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2014, 06:13:40 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I think you nailed the crux of the argument on the head though, it comes down to should the guys actually playing the game have the right to make the decision and take the risk.  I can understand why owners worry about that type of thing when signing 120 million dollar contracts.  They're allowed to force their guys to not ride motorbikes and other things that an athlete might consider is worth the risk.  It would just be another clause thing like that, if you want your multi-million dollar contract and be a famous NBA player, all you have to do is give up your right for a medal.  If you feel that strongly about it, all you have to do is stay in college until there's a tournament.

What they generally don't do is restrict their players from playing basketball, since that is directly related to being good at their jobs.  What's the difference between Paul George breaking his leg in a Team USA exhibition and breaking it in one of those high-level pickup games that happen all summer long?  I don't see much that supports one type of offseason ball being riskier than the other.
Do you honestly think the best players in the world go all out in summer pickup games?  You think guys are running/falling into the stands?  You honestly don't see the difference between playing against practice bodies who are paid first and foremost to not injury anybody vs. guys who are playing for their country on TV with the chance to be known as the best in the world on the line?

I honestly think that in 22 years of NBA participation in USA international basketball, the major injury rate is...one.  One per 22 years, and on a completely routine play that could've happened at any level.

It's pretty hard to argue that international play is substantially more dangerous than the other kinds offseason basketball games that are happening already, no matter how many leading questions get thrown around.  So if we should ban international participation from NBA players, it stands to reason we should also ban them from every other kind of offseason game. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 06:19:39 PM by foulweatherfan »

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2014, 06:20:18 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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I think you nailed the crux of the argument on the head though, it comes down to should the guys actually playing the game have the right to make the decision and take the risk.  I can understand why owners worry about that type of thing when signing 120 million dollar contracts.  They're allowed to force their guys to not ride motorbikes and other things that an athlete might consider is worth the risk.  It would just be another clause thing like that, if you want your multi-million dollar contract and be a famous NBA player, all you have to do is give up your right for a medal.  If you feel that strongly about it, all you have to do is stay in college until there's a tournament.

What they generally don't do is restrict their players from playing basketball, since that is directly related to being good at their jobs.  What's the difference between Paul George breaking his leg in a Team USA exhibition and breaking it in one of those high-level pickup games that happen all summer long?  I don't see much that supports one type of offseason ball being riskier than the other.
Do you honestly think the best players in the world go all out in summer pickup games?  You think guys are running/falling into the stands?  You honestly don't see the difference between playing against practice bodies who are paid first and foremost to not injury anybody vs. guys who are playing for their country on TV with the chance to be known as the best in the world on the line?

I honestly think that in 22 years of NBA participation in USA international basketball, the major injury rate is...one.  One per 22 years, and on a completely routine play that could've happened at any level.

It's pretty hard to argue that international play is substantially more dangerous than the offseason basketball games that are happening either way, no matter how many leading questions get thrown around.

TP, pretty much where I stand.

Personally, I think this the owners' major concern is exactly what Mark Cuban alluded to earlier this summer that seems to have gone relatively under the radar: they don't see a dime from FIBA/Olympic play.  I suspect if owners were able to directly profit off their players' participation in international play, there'd somehow be a hell of a lot less push against it and the injury risk these players face.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2014, 06:22:14 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I'm pretty sure everyone posting in this thread knows what the ownership's stance on international play is.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2014, 06:27:40 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Talking from a media perspective.  I've seen more takes focusing on the injury angle with more cursory glances at the financial motivation.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2014, 06:32:59 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I think you nailed the crux of the argument on the head though, it comes down to should the guys actually playing the game have the right to make the decision and take the risk.  I can understand why owners worry about that type of thing when signing 120 million dollar contracts.  They're allowed to force their guys to not ride motorbikes and other things that an athlete might consider is worth the risk.  It would just be another clause thing like that, if you want your multi-million dollar contract and be a famous NBA player, all you have to do is give up your right for a medal.  If you feel that strongly about it, all you have to do is stay in college until there's a tournament.

What they generally don't do is restrict their players from playing basketball, since that is directly related to being good at their jobs.  What's the difference between Paul George breaking his leg in a Team USA exhibition and breaking it in one of those high-level pickup games that happen all summer long?  I don't see much that supports one type of offseason ball being riskier than the other.
Do you honestly think the best players in the world go all out in summer pickup games?  You think guys are running/falling into the stands?  You honestly don't see the difference between playing against practice bodies who are paid first and foremost to not injury anybody vs. guys who are playing for their country on TV with the chance to be known as the best in the world on the line?

I honestly think that in 22 years of NBA participation in USA international basketball, the major injury rate is...one.  One per 22 years, and on a completely routine play that could've happened at any level.

It's pretty hard to argue that international play is substantially more dangerous than the offseason basketball games that are happening either way, no matter how many leading questions get thrown around.

TP, pretty much where I stand.

Personally, I think this the owners' major concern is exactly what Mark Cuban alluded to earlier this summer that seems to have gone relatively under the radar: they don't see a dime from FIBA/Olympic play.  I suspect if owners were able to directly profit off their players' participation in international play, there'd somehow be a hell of a lot less push against it and the injury risk these players face.

I think the owners are aware they indirectly benefit from international play via international exposure for the game, but there's a tragedy of the commons-type issue at play; if we all get the reward, let the other guy take the risk.

Something as small as letting franchises sell their player's international jersey would help, but there's no chance in hell FIBA/Olympics lets them.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2014, 06:45:48 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I like the piece but kind of don't buy it as a recruiting ploy by K. Sure he glory hounds a little but what high profile coach in college basketball doesn't. In my opinion it takes a lot more than coaching NBA players to recruit a kid. The college itself has to fit a student athlete as well. Woj has to know that so don't know why so much fuss.

As for international play for NBA players I think that is a players choice I do feel teams should voice their opinions in private but honor a players wishes.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2014, 06:52:18 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Well, I have some strong words for Woj, you are a piece of crap.

Seriously, why the need to disparage the best basketball coach on any level in all the world? Coach K has earned his respect, what have you earned Woj?

And people wonder why journalists are looked upon with disdain.

Coach K isn't even the best basketball coach on the Southeastern Seaboard.

Now how is anyone supposed to take to you seriously.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2014, 08:13:38 PM »

Offline mgent

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I think you nailed the crux of the argument on the head though, it comes down to should the guys actually playing the game have the right to make the decision and take the risk.  I can understand why owners worry about that type of thing when signing 120 million dollar contracts.  They're allowed to force their guys to not ride motorbikes and other things that an athlete might consider is worth the risk.  It would just be another clause thing like that, if you want your multi-million dollar contract and be a famous NBA player, all you have to do is give up your right for a medal.  If you feel that strongly about it, all you have to do is stay in college until there's a tournament.

What they generally don't do is restrict their players from playing basketball, since that is directly related to being good at their jobs.  What's the difference between Paul George breaking his leg in a Team USA exhibition and breaking it in one of those high-level pickup games that happen all summer long?  I don't see much that supports one type of offseason ball being riskier than the other.
Do you honestly think the best players in the world go all out in summer pickup games?  You think guys are running/falling into the stands?  You honestly don't see the difference between playing against practice bodies who are paid first and foremost to not injury anybody vs. guys who are playing for their country on TV with the chance to be known as the best in the world on the line?

George got hurt in a scrimmage doing a routine move he very well might've done in a streetball/pickup game solely to draw "oohs" and "aahs" from the crowd.  George's injury was very much so the definition of "freak accident that could've happened playing basketball anywhere."
I never said it wasn't.

So I don't see the point of pointing out how much players feel compelled to go "all out" when that wasn't even really the cause behind the injuries suffered by Team USA this year, including George's.  It was all fairly mundane stuff: losing footing (Kyrie), bad defensive plays by the other team (Gay), a scramble for a loose ball (Cousins).  That last one happens at every single level of play, by the way.

If you're concerned about players getting hurt in the World Cup/Olympics, why not express that same concern for guys playing in pickup games?  If you're playing in a pickup game, your focus is probably more so on entertaining the crowd; you might feel more compelled to do flashier dunks and dribble moves that, while more exciting, could potentially be more dangerous.

Injuries can happen anywhere; there's an inherent risk involved in any physical activity.  I don't think players are necessarily at greater risk playing in international competitions than they are simply playing basketball anywhere.  It just seems like a fairly arbitrary line to draw.
Because you asked what the difference was between playing in summer pick-up games/practice and committing to the freaking Olympics(/World Cup).  You didn't ask me if I thought Paul George should have gone the entire summer without playing basketball to save himself from injury. 

I think you're 100% wrong that NBA players are focusing on the crowd during practice games and trying to be flashy or trying risky moves.  If anything they are much lazier and don't try 1-in-10 chase-down blocks like the one George got injured on.  THAT was probably for the crowd, which he never would have done in his home gym or the Pacer's practice facility to "show off" to his personal trainers or coaching staff (and again, there wouldn't have even been a stanchion, and it would have definitely been different if he was trying to block some non-NBA player instead of James Harden).

Of course the NBA owners want money in exchange for somebody else using their product, because money is exactly what they stand to lose.  It basically comes down to the same CBA argument, owners vs. players.  We as fans also stand to lose, do you have any idea what this thread would look like if George was a Celtic?
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Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2014, 08:30:11 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Did Woj actually write that Coach K would have a hard time making eye contact with a 16 year old at an AAU game? Did he say that?

If you're a coach trying to recruit kids I'm not 100% sure the best strategy is to spend lots of time with players that aren't eligible to play for you. Coach Cal gets tons of good kids every single year. He doesn't need FIBA. It wasn't even an Olympic year, and then what if the US team lost? Like it has in the past. Would that help him?

But this whole unfair thing? What would not be unfair? If an NBA coach were coaching NBA players wouldn't he have "unfair" access to future free agents?  If an NBA coach were coaching college players...that would be healthy? If a college coach were coaching the best college guys? Yeah, just wait for one of them to transfer to Duke.

K and Boeheim coaching NBA guys makes the most sense and it makes our players the most happy.  FIBA is way more competitive than it ever was and it is exactly because we send good players. The Dream Team started it and now we have Euro countries with multiple all stars. 
This is a good thing.

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2014, 10:31:39 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Quote
As for international play for NBA players I think that is a players choice I do feel teams should voice their opinions in private but honor a players wishes.

I agree with this only if there starts to be out clauses in contracts for the nba team. If you get hurt then we can get out of your deal. Or you only get half your deal that year and the team can use that other half as an exception for a replacement player.

From a financial standpoint the Nba teams take all the risk and get nothing in return for it. Fiba makes money. The players will still get paid healthy or not also.


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Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2014, 11:18:13 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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I think you nailed the crux of the argument on the head though, it comes down to should the guys actually playing the game have the right to make the decision and take the risk.  I can understand why owners worry about that type of thing when signing 120 million dollar contracts.  They're allowed to force their guys to not ride motorbikes and other things that an athlete might consider is worth the risk.  It would just be another clause thing like that, if you want your multi-million dollar contract and be a famous NBA player, all you have to do is give up your right for a medal.  If you feel that strongly about it, all you have to do is stay in college until there's a tournament.

What they generally don't do is restrict their players from playing basketball, since that is directly related to being good at their jobs.  What's the difference between Paul George breaking his leg in a Team USA exhibition and breaking it in one of those high-level pickup games that happen all summer long?  I don't see much that supports one type of offseason ball being riskier than the other.
Do you honestly think the best players in the world go all out in summer pickup games?  You think guys are running/falling into the stands?  You honestly don't see the difference between playing against practice bodies who are paid first and foremost to not injury anybody vs. guys who are playing for their country on TV with the chance to be known as the best in the world on the line?

George got hurt in a scrimmage doing a routine move he very well might've done in a streetball/pickup game solely to draw "oohs" and "aahs" from the crowd.  George's injury was very much so the definition of "freak accident that could've happened playing basketball anywhere."
I never said it wasn't.

So I don't see the point of pointing out how much players feel compelled to go "all out" when that wasn't even really the cause behind the injuries suffered by Team USA this year, including George's.  It was all fairly mundane stuff: losing footing (Kyrie), bad defensive plays by the other team (Gay), a scramble for a loose ball (Cousins).  That last one happens at every single level of play, by the way.

If you're concerned about players getting hurt in the World Cup/Olympics, why not express that same concern for guys playing in pickup games?  If you're playing in a pickup game, your focus is probably more so on entertaining the crowd; you might feel more compelled to do flashier dunks and dribble moves that, while more exciting, could potentially be more dangerous.

Injuries can happen anywhere; there's an inherent risk involved in any physical activity.  I don't think players are necessarily at greater risk playing in international competitions than they are simply playing basketball anywhere.  It just seems like a fairly arbitrary line to draw.
Because you asked what the difference was between playing in summer pick-up games/practice and committing to the freaking Olympics(/World Cup).  You didn't ask me if I thought Paul George should have gone the entire summer without playing basketball to save himself from injury. 

I think you're 100% wrong that NBA players are focusing on the crowd during practice games and trying to be flashy or trying risky moves.  If anything they are much lazier and don't try 1-in-10 chase-down blocks like the one George got injured on.  THAT was probably for the crowd, which he never would have done in his home gym or the Pacer's practice facility to "show off" to his personal trainers or coaching staff (and again, there wouldn't have even been a stanchion, and it would have definitely been different if he was trying to block some non-NBA player instead of James Harden).

Of course the NBA owners want money in exchange for somebody else using their product, because money is exactly what they stand to lose.  It basically comes down to the same CBA argument, owners vs. players.  We as fans also stand to lose, do you have any idea what this thread would look like if George was a Celtic?

1. I never asked you anything prior to the post you replied to; I made a statement in response to one of your posts and you responded in kind.
2. "I think you're 100% wrong that NBA players are focusing on the crowd during practice games and trying to be flashy or trying risky moves." ... is something I never said.  I never said anything about practice; I said pickup games.  I'm referring to things like Seattle Pro Am, Drew League, Rucker.  There are most certainly crowds beyond team officials and trainers at those games.  And you clearly aren't watching those games if you think guys aren't doing their best to impress and entertain the crowd.  The focus on those games has never been about the final score; it's been about seeing guys show out and put on dominating performances.
3. So if you acknowledge that this purely boils down to owners wanting a cut from FIBA, then there's no point in arguing from this "it's dangerous to play in international games" angle if you're not going to raise the same concern about pickup games.  Unless you've got stats showing the injury rate of players in FIBA play vs. offseason pro-am play, that argument is nonsense at its very core.
4. You basically addressed my entire fundamental issue with this debate: players aren't the owners' "products." They're not property that owners have full oversight over and can dictate everything they can do in their own personal time.  If guys want to play basketball in the offseason, they should be able to do so.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 11:25:46 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2014, 01:07:50 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 01:24:12 AM by indeedproceed »

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Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2014, 09:52:01 AM »

Offline mgent

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Sorry, that was FWF who asked.

But yeah dude, I'd watch a thousand more summer league games if I were you before I continued comparing them to the Olympics/World Cup.  Sure they dunk for the crowd, but there is absolutely no defense whatsoever.  Guys literally get out of the way in transition.  Everybody basically gets together before the game and agrees not to contest or foul if they get beat.  Not to mention those things typically consist of like 1 NBA all star and then high school kids.

No NBA player cares about winning those games, they don't matter.  There's a reason they play the All-Star game the way they do, it's to mitigate risk.  If you give Kobe a bloody nose you have to apologize afterwards.

Here, watch the first video I found of the Seattle Pro-Am.

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/huskymensbasketball/2014/08/24/video-uw-players-chris-paul-highlight-seattle-pro-am-midnight-madness/

That's basketball?  Those guys aren't playing defense, they're just jogging/watching.
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Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2014, 10:34:01 AM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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The level of defense has nothing to do with blowing your knee out after attempting a dunk, a la Tony Allen.  Freak accidents are not suddenly an impossibility in pickup games just because no one's playing defense beyond going for flashy blocks or steals leading to fast breaks.

Regardless, as already pointed out, the level of defense in international play has led to exactly one serious injury to NBA players in 22 years.  I'm not buying the idea that it's so much more dangerous than playing any kind of basketball, especially when every single injury Team USA suffered this year - save for Rudy Gay's - was due to a routine play gone wrong.


Re: Strong words from Woj on Coach K and Team U.S.A.
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2014, 11:32:31 AM »

Offline mgent

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No, it has to do with Paul George, who you brought up in a way that nothing to do with my point (nor does Tony Allen).  You keep acting like I said guys should stop playing basketball all together.

But, whatever, you're clearly smarter than every NBA player who decided not to play in a tournament for risk of injury or fear that the fatigue would affect their season (and also increase their risk for injury).  Those guys have no clue what they're doing.
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