Author Topic: Sullinger and Ray Rice  (Read 24503 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2014, 10:55:40 AM »

Offline TrueGreen

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 489
  • Tommy Points: 22
I posted previously saying, in short, that the legal system should handle domestic violence and the teams and leagues do what's right. Some posts following suggested the legal system has let victims down for a variety of reasons.....What annoyed me, at first, about this topic is that guilt and innocence and actions are being played out in the media and not in the courts. Accused and victims alike are being analyzed in the press by people with no or very limited first hand knowledge.

The people following my posts seem to disagree with my thought that the league should not be the legal system here and should act only in their own interests which would hopefully go a long way to ridding society of domestic abuse.

One post said that professional sports players are different from society in general. I don't agree with this. There are different influences on their lives that are not common to us, but so do corporate executives or any other member of society.

The posters following me made me change my thinking. I still think the legal system should handle domestic abuse. If the current laws don't do it the laws should be changed. BUT I now think that groups such as the major sports leagues should take a more active role. Hopefully this role would avoid the discussion of events being investigated. Sports has consistently taken the lead in making societal changes for the better. Maybe the current outrage should be a signal for leagues and teams to take on the subject of domestic violence in a more public and transparent way. We need to allow them to do this without accusing leaders or wanting them to be fired or to resign. Our role, as members of society (and this includes the media), should be  to offer our thoughts. Media needs to be careful to not have their own agendas take take the lead. We should not force the leaders into making knee-jerk actions.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2014, 10:57:48 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20738
  • Tommy Points: 2365
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
I think the debate over whether there are different levels of domestic violence should pretty much end as soon as it's noted that if there aren't, Janay and Ray Rice's actions in that casino would be considered equally bad.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2014, 11:21:41 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
The two reasons people view Sully's incident differently are:

1) They didn't see it.  Many more people turned on Rice once they saw it.   Until then there was some pressure on Goodell but after that video it changed every thing.   I am not sure that Sully had his been seen would be a Celtic today.  Visual evidence is very powerful.  A photoframe paints a thousand words and instead of seeing one side you also see the victim get hurt.

2) He is a Celtic.  To some fans our guys can do no wrong.   I am sure, if you think about it, you  probably knew someone that thought  Aaron Hernandez was innocent as well.  Some fans have a innate capacity to rationalize despicable behavior when it applies to their team.   Even though facts are presented.   They are able to form a reason within their own head why things are different with their team guy.  Folks trying to sway them have about as much luck as you would trying to get a brick wall to skip down the road with you.

  The two main reasons people view the two incidents differently are:

  1) the difference in violence and severity of the two acts. Believe it or not, if Sully's girlfriend had needed medical attention because she'd been found unconscious  or was treated for concussion symptoms Sully's support would have generally evaporated.

  2) They didn't see it. They didn't hear Sully's side of the story and didn't really get a very detailed description of what happened.

  I think there might be a few "Celtics can do no wrong" posters here but beyond that it's fairly hard to take those claims seriously.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2014, 12:02:36 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12749
  • Tommy Points: 1544
I have a serious question.  People don't have to answer if they don't want, but I would hope people would at least consider it.

How would you feel if that was another man Ray Rice punched out?  Would you be as equally outraged?  If not, why?

And I have a second point I would like people to consider.  Just now, as I am watching the NFL pregame show on ESPN, there was a commercial for a comedy movie (This is Where I Leave You-starring Jason Bateman and Jane Fonda).  In the scene being promoted a woman punches a man square in the face, with the police standing right there, no less.  Obviously, this is being portrayed as a comedic action, as evidenced by the following reaction of the lead character (Bateman).

Why is it funny when a woman punches a man in the face?  Are we basically saying, as a society, "it's no big deal"?  Isn't this a double standard, implying there exists a sort of 'inequality'?

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #109 on: September 14, 2014, 12:32:24 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
as much as there should be equality amongst the sexes. if someone doesn't see a difference between a man punching a woman over a man then you're eliminating yourself from the issue.

about the only way I would understand a situation where it might be excusable to actually knock a woman out, much less hit a woman? would be if i'm walking down the street and a woman pops out, holding a gun or knife trying to mug me. even then I don't think i'd take my chances of getting shot. but anyone pointing a gun at me i'm probably going to want to knock out.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2014, 12:32:44 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9931
  • Tommy Points: 777
Punching someone in the head is clear quite worse than restraining someone against their will. Having a video also makes it easier to prosecute.

Players need to be prosecuting for battery, regardless of whether it is domestic violence or not. It is just not acceptable behavior.

That being said, the idea that you can never 'lay your hands on a woman' makes no sense to me. There are violent women who have their own anger issues and who will physically attack the object of their rage. It is completely reasonable to restrain such a person. There is also the question of the implicit acceptance of the inability to control anger among women but rejection of the same trait in men. An individual's strength is not what decides whether this is right or wrong. It is wrong in both cases. I don't think that this applies to either Sully or Rice, as I am not aware of the women being the source of the violence. But cliches like 'never lay your hands on a woman' don't really make sense.

I personally feel that the root problem is not the physical attack itself, but the fact that there are a lot of people who have anger issues and a lack of impulse control. Either dealing with problems with physical violence is ok or it isn't. I say it isn't, but anyone who initiates physical violence against another spurred by their personal rage is implicitly saying that it is acceptable to the other party, who may have the same rage issues.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #111 on: September 14, 2014, 12:52:02 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
in the rice case. restrain? yes. knock out? no

both of them clearly don't come off as responsible adults and both probably shouldn't be involved in an adult relationship. they certainly lacked class.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #112 on: September 14, 2014, 02:37:07 PM »

Offline zimbo

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 266
  • Tommy Points: 34
I have a serious question.  People don't have to answer if they don't want, but I would hope people would at least consider it.

How would you feel if that was another man Ray Rice punched out?  Would you be as equally outraged?  If not, why?

And I have a second point I would like people to consider.  Just now, as I am watching the NFL pregame show on ESPN, there was a commercial for a comedy movie (This is Where I Leave You-starring Jason Bateman and Jane Fonda).  In the scene being promoted a woman punches a man square in the face, with the police standing right there, no less.  Obviously, this is being portrayed as a comedic action, as evidenced by the following reaction of the lead character (Bateman).

Why is it funny when a woman punches a man in the face?  Are we basically saying, as a society, "it's no big deal"?  Isn't this a double standard, implying there exists a sort of 'inequality'?

In general, women and men are not physically equal. Just like adults and children aren't physical equals. Humans and some animals. Usually, the man has the edge in power.

For most women it would be quite difficult to physically restrain a man like Sully did with his SO or knock a man out like Rice did with his then fiance. This is a power issue as well.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #113 on: September 14, 2014, 03:04:36 PM »

Offline Ogaju

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19479
  • Tommy Points: 1871
I have a serious question.  People don't have to answer if they don't want, but I would hope people would at least consider it.

How would you feel if that was another man Ray Rice punched out?  Would you be as equally outraged?  If not, why?

And I have a second point I would like people to consider.  Just now, as I am watching the NFL pregame show on ESPN, there was a commercial for a comedy movie (This is Where I Leave You-starring Jason Bateman and Jane Fonda).  In the scene being promoted a woman punches a man square in the face, with the police standing right there, no less.  Obviously, this is being portrayed as a comedic action, as evidenced by the following reaction of the lead character (Bateman).

Why is it funny when a woman punches a man in the face?  Are we basically saying, as a society, "it's no big deal"?  Isn't this a double standard, implying there exists a sort of 'inequality'?

So you answered your own question. I have argued in this and other threads that this matter should be approached from a gender neutral perspective for it to get better traction, but my argument has either been ignored or opposed. I see the issue of domestic violence as an issue of strong vs. weak, and the fact that women are generally weaker than men should not change the narrative. So to answer your question if Rice had punched a man instead of a woman, I would want to know whether or not it was a fair fight. If the man was mush smaller and weaker than him, I would be outraged but maybe not as outraged as I am because he punched a woman he is in a love relationship with. So maybe even I need to be debriefed from the gender politics of domestic violence.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #114 on: September 14, 2014, 03:37:13 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
Quote
How would you feel if that was another man Ray Rice punched out?  Would you be as equally outraged?  If not, why?

I would not feel as outraged.   A man can defend himself better and  if he threw the first punch and got clocked.  I would feel as if he had it coming.  Man vs. a women is different because of the strength variations in my book.  Most grown men as like women to me in terms of their strength.   I am a big guy and very strong.   I have had a 6'2" 230 lbs guy try to fight me and I just bear hugged him and laughed at him.  I didn't hurt him.

Quote
Why is it funny when a woman punches a man in the face?  Are we basically saying, as a society, "it's no big deal"?  Isn't this a double standard, implying there exists a sort of 'inequality'?

The law should apply equally from an assault standpoint but in the court of public opinion it will never be the same.  Is a comedy movie a great point of reference, here?   I think not, slapstick is slapstick humor.   But it is humor.  I never get mad watching the three stooges.

You guys wanting equal treatment with womenby society need to hand in your "man" cards and I will hold the door open for you.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #115 on: September 14, 2014, 03:49:15 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Punching someone in the head is clear quite worse than restraining someone against their will. Having a video also makes it easier to prosecute.

Players need to be prosecuting for battery, regardless of whether it is domestic violence or not. It is just not acceptable behavior.

That being said, the idea that you can never 'lay your hands on a woman' makes no sense to me. There are violent women who have their own anger issues and who will physically attack the object of their rage. It is completely reasonable to restrain such a person. There is also the question of the implicit acceptance of the inability to control anger among women but rejection of the same trait in men. An individual's strength is not what decides whether this is right or wrong. It is wrong in both cases. I don't think that this applies to either Sully or Rice, as I am not aware of the women being the source of the violence. But cliches like 'never lay your hands on a woman' don't really make sense.

I personally feel that the root problem is not the physical attack itself, but the fact that there are a lot of people who have anger issues and a lack of impulse control. Either dealing with problems with physical violence is ok or it isn't. I say it isn't, but anyone who initiates physical violence against another spurred by their personal rage is implicitly saying that it is acceptable to the other party, who may have the same rage issues.
True, though Sullinger's girlfriend said he was on top of her on the bed pushing her down and then Sullinger threw her off the bed onto the floor and again got on top of her.  She didn't call the police for over 10 hours and still had visible marks on her chest from the injuries caused by Sullinger.  She easily could have hit her head when she was thrown from the bed or when he was holding her down against her will.  I think if there was a video of it, people would be as much if not more outraged as it was a longer turn of events and Sullinger is much much larger than Rice.  Especially if the throwing from the bed was violently done. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Punching someone in the head is clear quite worse than restraining someone against their will. Having a video also makes it easier to prosecute.

Players need to be prosecuting for battery, regardless of whether it is domestic violence or not. It is just not acceptable behavior.

That being said, the idea that you can never 'lay your hands on a woman' makes no sense to me. There are violent women who have their own anger issues and who will physically attack the object of their rage. It is completely reasonable to restrain such a person. There is also the question of the implicit acceptance of the inability to control anger among women but rejection of the same trait in men. An individual's strength is not what decides whether this is right or wrong. It is wrong in both cases. I don't think that this applies to either Sully or Rice, as I am not aware of the women being the source of the violence. But cliches like 'never lay your hands on a woman' don't really make sense.

I personally feel that the root problem is not the physical attack itself, but the fact that there are a lot of people who have anger issues and a lack of impulse control. Either dealing with problems with physical violence is ok or it isn't. I say it isn't, but anyone who initiates physical violence against another spurred by their personal rage is implicitly saying that it is acceptable to the other party, who may have the same rage issues.
True, though Sullinger's girlfriend said he was on top of her on the bed pushing her down and then Sullinger threw her off the bed onto the floor and again got on top of her.  She didn't call the police for over 10 hours and still had visible marks on her chest from the injuries caused by Sullinger.  She easily could have hit her head when she was thrown from the bed or when he was holding her down against her will.  I think if there was a video of it, people would be as much if not more outraged as it was a longer turn of events and Sullinger is much much larger than Rice.  Especially if the throwing from the bed was violently done.

  And if he wasn't being overly violent there wouldn't be as much outrage. She might not have actually been thrown to the floor. All we have right now is one side of the story from someone who may have been fairly angry when she made the claims. As we've seen in basically every similar current events discussion ever, it's never wise to take these stories as the gospel truth.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2014, 09:30:20 PM »

Offline Ogaju

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19479
  • Tommy Points: 1871
also 10 hours to call the police means she may have self-inflicted the bruises on herself. This is why maters have to be decided in court where the facts are sorted out. Most of these young athletes feel trapped by these women, and there are many of the women who do trap these young men. Therefore the fact that it took her 10 hours to call the police cuts both ways.

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #118 on: September 15, 2014, 02:56:45 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3097
  • Tommy Points: 191
  • Celtic's only raise championship Banners
also 10 hours to call the police means she may have self-inflicted the bruises on herself. This is why maters have to be decided in court where the facts are sorted out. Most of these young athletes feel trapped by these women, and there are many of the women who do trap these young men. Therefore the fact that it took her 10 hours to call the police cuts both ways.

Couldn't agree more. Lets have an honest talk. Its 2014 and we live in a gender and sexual neutral society. I am afraid to have an honest talk about this bc it would sound rude and in poor taste...but the truth. The video below is Tiones wag , TO's wag, and another black athlete (who i sincerely feel for). She got in TO's face/hit him and was head butted ...she went on every show possible . She and women like her are the reason my views have changed.

Please Men, research BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrxyZrJVYJs

Re: Sullinger and Ray Rice
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2014, 09:33:42 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
also 10 hours to call the police means she may have self-inflicted the bruises on herself. This is why maters have to be decided in court where the facts are sorted out. Most of these young athletes feel trapped by these women, and there are many of the women who do trap these young men. Therefore the fact that it took her 10 hours to call the police cuts both ways.

Couldn't agree more. Lets have an honest talk. Its 2014 and we live in a gender and sexual neutral society. I am afraid to have an honest talk about this bc it would sound rude and in poor taste...but the truth. The video below is Tiones wag , TO's wag, and another black athlete (who i sincerely feel for). She got in TO's face/hit him and was head butted ...she went on every show possible . She and women like her are the reason my views have changed.

Please Men, research BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrxyZrJVYJs

Strong take Cotton, let's see if pays off.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.