Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?

[Beat LA]

The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

If Posey had been asked to do what Green has on this team, he'd have been a disaster. 
Green could start for most teams in the league and would be a rotation  player on even the best.  Just because he's not as good as we think he could be, doesn't make him Michael Beasley.

And the thing that everyone forgets is that Nenad Krstic came along with Green.  Krstic was the starting center for a Thunder team that made the playoffs in the Western Conference.  It was losing him for nothing that left Boston strapped for quality bigs.  And while I'm sure it was NBA labor troubles that mostly caused him to go back to Europe, Doc refusing to play him in the playoffs could not have helped.

Mike

Right, that's why I was said Green wasn't a "direct replacement" for Posey. I guess should have just said "not a replacement" though, because I didn't mean to compare their actual skill set. I was just making a general point about making roster moves after a title. As Patriots fans are undoubtedly aware, you have to let the veterans go sometimes. However, the replacement that seems to fit well (or occasionally better) on paper sometimes doesn't seem to mesh.

Obviously baseball is not as much of a team sport as basketball and football but Edgar Renteria comes to mind. Orlando Cabrera didn't put up sexy numbers and Renteria should have more than replaced his offensive and defensive production, in theory. Instead, he was never comfortable and had a disappointing year. On the other hand, you could say sometimes the original guy was just hot and chances are would fall back down to earth.

I don't have an answer as to whether it really matters or if we're just overrating guys who were on championship teams because of nostalgia, but it's always a fascinating, neverending debate.

Actually, looking back at Renteria's numbers, he certainly did have a lesser year compared to his average but it also wasn't a total disaster. In that case it was probably a little unfair scapegoating since the team wasn't able to repeat.

As far as Green goes, I don't want to get that started in this thread! He is what he is, I think. I thought he could have been more once, but he's clearly not going to be that now.

Letting Cabrera go was dumb, and in the case of Renteria, he looked to be the classic case of a player who just doesn't perform well in a place like Boston or New York (I'm a Yankees fan, btw).  It happens to the greatest of players.  Look at Randy Johnson when the Yankees got him (which was such a dumb move).  Never mind the fact that he was 41-42 year old pitcher in the AL East smh, but his personality wasn't suited for New York, unlike someone like Roger Clemens, even though I hate to use him as an example.  His steroid use was the one that put me over the edge with baseball, and I really don't follow the sport anymore.  It's sad to see the players you loved when you were a kid turn out to be so despicable.

Anyway, back to Renteria (sorry for the tangent lol).  I think the big thing with him was how poor he was defensively for Boston, because he had been a gold glove winning shortstop in places like St. Louis, but that's not entirely his fault, imo, because the infield at Fenway is notoriously bad, what with all of the odd bounces and such (almost like the parquet floor of baseball at times haha), and not everyone can adjust to those ground conditions, no matter how accomplished a player it is.  They should have kept Cabrera, though.

[Beat LA]

Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013  

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.  I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

I think the reason few people bring up Posey is because he got out of shape after the deal and was a disappointment. I guess you could argue that in Boston he wouldn't have been allowed to be lazy but my feeling is Posey knew it was his last big deal and was just playing out the string with minimum effort. I guess we'll never know if he would have tried harder in Boston.

The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner

[Beat LA]

Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013  

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.

  Yes, the MLE for 4 years was too expensive for Posey. His biggest value add to the 2008 team was those intangibles, such as grit, toughness, championship experience and leadership. After the team won the title they had all those things in spades. It would have been a foolish signing.

I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

  Your analysis of Danny's drafting is fairly ridiculous. If you're going to compare a GM's draft picks to the best players who were chosen after them then every GM in the history of the league will look bad. Danny's picks have been seen as well above average in pretty much every unbiased evaluation I've seen. Lester Hudson seems like a bad pick when you compare him to one player that *everyone* passed on, including the GM of the team he ended up on. But if you take a more realistic view of the situation you'd realize that most of the players drafted at that spot never play in a single nba game, the pick doesn't look so bad.

Not really - not when it was so blatantly obvious as to who the bpa was.  Just because a draft slot doesn't produce players historically doesn't mean that you should just throw in the towel and give up.  That's just stupid.  Hudson wasn't going to play anyway because Eddie House was still there, so it made no sense in terms of fit, either. 

Also, I don't think my analysis is ridiculous at all.  How else are you to evaluate the ability of your gm to draft quality players if he keeps whiffing on the guys who could have helped you?  That's the only way to evaluate the people in your front office, and don't give me the excuse that Danny didn't have prime draft position so he couldn't have been realistically expected to draft well from said spots.  BullEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline..  No two drafts are the same.  2014 was extremely deep, while 2013 left much to be desired.  Sometimes you can trade up or down, and sometimes you can't, but look at the Spurs.  Duncan aside, none of those players were even lottery picks.  That's a team that does its homework.  That's how Boston used to draft.  That's how Jerry West used to draft.  Sure, they might have missed a player here and there, but overall, the guys they selected were great players.  I just find it incredibly frustrating that a moron like me can read over some scouting reports, blog posts, watch some clips on YouTube and be consistently able to pick better players than Ainge, who has everything at his disposal.  It's kind of embarrassing, honestly.

[Beat LA]

I always felt that not resigning Posey was Ainge's biggest mistake, at least as far as not resigning a player goes. It is very difficult as a player to be able to give the team the things it really needs at just the times those things are needed. Posey supplied great D and was very versatile in this area, hit the big shots and made the right plays at the right times. Was he going to be too expensive for his contract in a couple of years, sure, but we may have gotten another shot at a title had he stuck around. There is too little emphasis put on 'glue' guys in sports and it should be the opposite.

That's all I'm saying.  Thank you

[Beat LA]

Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013  

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.

  Yes, the MLE for 4 years was too expensive for Posey. His biggest value add to the 2008 team was those intangibles, such as grit, toughness, championship experience and leadership. After the team won the title they had all those things in spades. It would have been a foolish signing.

Really?  Then who, may I ask, would you have replaced him with?  TA?  Ahahahahahaha

[BballTim]

Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013  

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.

  Yes, the MLE for 4 years was too expensive for Posey. His biggest value add to the 2008 team was those intangibles, such as grit, toughness, championship experience and leadership. After the team won the title they had all those things in spades. It would have been a foolish signing.

I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

  Your analysis of Danny's drafting is fairly ridiculous. If you're going to compare a GM's draft picks to the best players who were chosen after them then every GM in the history of the league will look bad. Danny's picks have been seen as well above average in pretty much every unbiased evaluation I've seen. Lester Hudson seems like a bad pick when you compare him to one player that *everyone* passed on, including the GM of the team he ended up on. But if you take a more realistic view of the situation you'd realize that most of the players drafted at that spot never play in a single nba game, the pick doesn't look so bad.

Not really - not when it was so blatantly obvious as to who the bpa was.  Just because a draft slot doesn't produce players historically doesn't mean that you should just throw in the towel and give up.  That's just stupid.  Hudson wasn't going to play anyway because Eddie House was still there, so it made no sense in terms of fit, either. 

  If it was so blatantly obvious who the bpa was then he wouldn't have been available when Danny was drafted, or he would have surely been scooped up within a pick or two. All you're giving us is 20/20 hindsight.

Also, I don't think my analysis is ridiculous at all.  How else are you to evaluate the ability of your gm to draft quality players if he keeps whiffing on the guys who could have helped you?  That's the only way to evaluate the people in your front office, and don't give me the excuse that Danny didn't have prime draft position so he couldn't have been realistically expected to draft well from said spots.  Bull****. 

  The most obvious way to evaluate Danny's ability would be to compare the Celts drafting record with Danny to the drafting records of the other 29 teams. How do they do in similar spots? How do Danny's picks in the teens or 20s or 2nd round compare to players historically drafted in those spots? Danny's clearly well above average if you look at the draft like that. Al was a great pick at 15, Sully, Rondo and Perk were great picks at their spots, TA and West were good picks, and he's had tons of picks in the 2nd round that were well above what you'd expect at the spots that they were taken in.

I just find it incredibly frustrating that a moron like me can read over some scouting reports, blog posts, watch some clips on YouTube and be consistently able to pick better players than Ainge, who has everything at his disposal.  It's kind of embarrassing, honestly.

  I'm not sold that's really what's happening and not just selective memory on your part. But who knows, maybe you're better at this than most people who get paid to do it. But maybe I'm wrong about it. Danny picked 6th, so why don't you give us brief rundowns on just how good the players from 5-8 in the draft will be, there seems to be some debate on the subject. Danny also had #17, so who will be the top players in the 17-24 range would be great. Also, since this seems to be in your wheel house, why don't you let us know who's going to be the best player taken in the 55-60 range, and which undrafted players will make the most impact? We'll keep an eye on your picks in the future and then decide how you stack up to the pros.

[obnoxiousmime]

The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

If Posey had been asked to do what Green has on this team, he'd have been a disaster. 
Green could start for most teams in the league and would be a rotation  player on even the best.  Just because he's not as good as we think he could be, doesn't make him Michael Beasley.

And the thing that everyone forgets is that Nenad Krstic came along with Green.  Krstic was the starting center for a Thunder team that made the playoffs in the Western Conference.  It was losing him for nothing that left Boston strapped for quality bigs.  And while I'm sure it was NBA labor troubles that mostly caused him to go back to Europe, Doc refusing to play him in the playoffs could not have helped.

Mike

Right, that's why I was said Green wasn't a "direct replacement" for Posey. I guess should have just said "not a replacement" though, because I didn't mean to compare their actual skill set. I was just making a general point about making roster moves after a title. As Patriots fans are undoubtedly aware, you have to let the veterans go sometimes. However, the replacement that seems to fit well (or occasionally better) on paper sometimes doesn't seem to mesh.

Obviously baseball is not as much of a team sport as basketball and football but Edgar Renteria comes to mind. Orlando Cabrera didn't put up sexy numbers and Renteria should have more than replaced his offensive and defensive production, in theory. Instead, he was never comfortable and had a disappointing year. On the other hand, you could say sometimes the original guy was just hot and chances are would fall back down to earth.

I don't have an answer as to whether it really matters or if we're just overrating guys who were on championship teams because of nostalgia, but it's always a fascinating, neverending debate.

Actually, looking back at Renteria's numbers, he certainly did have a lesser year compared to his average but it also wasn't a total disaster. In that case it was probably a little unfair scapegoating since the team wasn't able to repeat.

As far as Green goes, I don't want to get that started in this thread! He is what he is, I think. I thought he could have been more once, but he's clearly not going to be that now.

Letting Cabrera go was dumb, and in the case of Renteria, he looked to be the classic case of a player who just doesn't perform well in a place like Boston or New York (I'm a Yankees fan, btw).  It happens to the greatest of players.  Look at Randy Johnson when the Yankees got him (which was such a dumb move).  Never mind the fact that he was 41-42 year old pitcher in the AL East smh, but his personality wasn't suited for New York, unlike someone like Roger Clemens, even though I hate to use him as an example.  His steroid use was the one that put me over the edge with baseball, and I really don't follow the sport anymore.  It's sad to see the players you loved when you were a kid turn out to be so despicable.

Anyway, back to Renteria (sorry for the tangent lol).  I think the big thing with him was how poor he was defensively for Boston, because he had been a gold glove winning shortstop in places like St. Louis, but that's not entirely his fault, imo, because the infield at Fenway is notoriously bad, what with all of the odd bounces and such (almost like the parquet floor of baseball at times haha), and not everyone can adjust to those ground conditions, no matter how accomplished a player it is.  They should have kept Cabrera, though.

You're right, Renteria is not a perfect example of what I was talking about because there were confirmed factors like Fenway's physical attributes and the Boston's intense fan and media pressure affecting his play. Maybe you could look at someone like Marquis Daniels or Courtney Lee who were supposed to somewhat reproduce Posey's production but couldn't due to injury, lack of consistent shooting, fit, makeup, or whatever. How much of it was intangibles is impossible to say, but we know that some guys just seemed to play better in Boston than elsewhere and vice versa.

[Sixth Man]

Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013  

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.

  Yes, the MLE for 4 years was too expensive for Posey. His biggest value add to the 2008 team was those intangibles, such as grit, toughness, championship experience and leadership. After the team won the title they had all those things in spades. It would have been a foolish signing.

I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

  Your analysis of Danny's drafting is fairly ridiculous. If you're going to compare a GM's draft picks to the best players who were chosen after them then every GM in the history of the league will look bad. Danny's picks have been seen as well above average in pretty much every unbiased evaluation I've seen. Lester Hudson seems like a bad pick when you compare him to one player that *everyone* passed on, including the GM of the team he ended up on. But if you take a more realistic view of the situation you'd realize that most of the players drafted at that spot never play in a single nba game, the pick doesn't look so bad.

Not really - not when it was so blatantly obvious as to who the bpa was.  Just because a draft slot doesn't produce players historically doesn't mean that you should just throw in the towel and give up.  That's just stupid.  Hudson wasn't going to play anyway because Eddie House was still there, so it made no sense in terms of fit, either. 

Also, I don't think my analysis is ridiculous at all.  How else are you to evaluate the ability of your gm to draft quality players if he keeps whiffing on the guys who could have helped you?  That's the only way to evaluate the people in your front office, and don't give me the excuse that Danny didn't have prime draft position so he couldn't have been realistically expected to draft well from said spots.  Bull****.  No two drafts are the same.  2014 was extremely deep, while 2013 left much to be desired.  Sometimes you can trade up or down, and sometimes you can't, but look at the Spurs.  Duncan aside, none of those players were even lottery picks.  That's a team that does its homework.  That's how Boston used to draft.  That's how Jerry West used to draft.  Sure, they might have missed a player here and there, but overall, the guys they selected were great players. I just find it incredibly frustrating that a moron like me can read over some scouting reports, blog posts, watch some clips on YouTube and be consistently able to pick better players than Ainge, who has everything at his disposal.  It's kind of embarrassing, honestly.

You know, for years and years I've wondered why you aren't running the personnel side of some NBA franchise.  It fairly boggles the mind that such an incredible talent such as yourself hasn't been given the opportunity to construct a world championship roster.  I think we should all make sure that your CV is sent to Wyc's immediate attention. 

Just one thing, though - you won't be able to cherry-pick past selections as GM for an NBA franchise.  But because you liked a guy in the late 2nd round a few years ago who turned out to be a very good NBA player, that won't be a problem for you, and I suspect that you will cash in each and every pick you make...

[RockinRyA]

Did Ainge ever admitted to make a mistake in trading Perkins?

Why admit something that isn't true?

I believe that group was capable of winning another title.  A bit of adjustment and addition like Spurs did would've done wonders for us.  You may point to Perkins regression in OKC as a justification but I'm a believer that that move was responsible for that.  It also affected everyone else on the team that season and beyond.  It was a glaring mistake.  What exactly did we got in return?  Uncle snooze.  How has that worked out for us?

Even though the loss of Perk obviously hurt our interior defense, I think that his "toughness" could have been replaced had we signed Leon Powe, who had been bought out and wanted to return to Boston, but again, nothing.  Morris Peterson was also released by Charlotte.  Why didn't we look into him, especially after Marquis went down?

The same Powe who couldnt get minutes after rehab and couldn't get signed anywhere else? Oh Please.

[obnoxiousmime]

Posey's deal was extreme for a role player and I think not matching it was justified even without an obvious replacement available. It was only one year into the Big Three era and though the window was small to begin with, tying up 6-7 million in cap space for four years would have limited moves down the road. Sure it's easy to look back and criticize the lack of a successful replacement but I think you can judge the transaction on its own. It's also possible that even with the re-signing his play would have deteriorated and the team still would not have been able to repeat.

Ainge's subsequent signings were almost all bad. I wish also that Pierce and Garnett would have taken more significant discounts considering their age, closer to the average annual salary Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker settled for. I mean, just look at their salaries during the run:

Garnett:

2007-08    Boston Celtics    NBA    $23,750,000
2008-09    Boston Celtics    NBA    $24,751,934
2009-10    Boston Celtics    NBA    $16,400,000
2010-11    Boston Celtics    NBA    $18,800,000
2011-12    Boston Celtics    NBA    $21,247,044
2012-13    Boston Celtics    NBA    $11,566,265

Pierce:

2007-08    Boston Celtics    NBA    $16,360,094
2008-09    Boston Celtics    NBA    $18,077,903
2009-10    Boston Celtics    NBA    $19,795,712
2010-11    Boston Celtics    NBA    $13,876,321
2011-12    Boston Celtics    NBA    $15,333,334
2012-13    Boston Celtics    NBA    $16,790,345

I would never blame anyone for taking as much money as they can but you have to realize that a team can only go over the luxury tax by a reasonable amount before it becomes too prohibitive.

[D.o.s.]

Lots and lots of confirmation bias from the armchair GM seat in this thread.

[Moranis]

Posey's deal was extreme for a role player and I think not matching it was justified even without an obvious replacement available. It was only one year into the Big Three era and though the window was small to begin with, tying up 6-7 million in cap space for four years would have limited moves down the road. Sure it's easy to look back and criticize the lack of a successful replacement but I think you can judge the transaction on its own. It's also possible that even with the re-signing his play would have deteriorated and the team still would not have been able to repeat.

Ainge's subsequent signings were almost all bad. I wish also that Pierce and Garnett would have taken more significant discounts considering their age, closer to the average annual salary Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker settled for. I mean, just look at their salaries during the run:

Garnett:

2007-08    Boston Celtics    NBA    $23,750,000
2008-09    Boston Celtics    NBA    $24,751,934
2009-10    Boston Celtics    NBA    $16,400,000
2010-11    Boston Celtics    NBA    $18,800,000
2011-12    Boston Celtics    NBA    $21,247,044
2012-13    Boston Celtics    NBA    $11,566,265

Pierce:

2007-08    Boston Celtics    NBA    $16,360,094
2008-09    Boston Celtics    NBA    $18,077,903
2009-10    Boston Celtics    NBA    $19,795,712
2010-11    Boston Celtics    NBA    $13,876,321
2011-12    Boston Celtics    NBA    $15,333,334
2012-13    Boston Celtics    NBA    $16,790,345

I would never blame anyone for taking as much money as they can but you have to realize that a team can only go over the luxury tax by a reasonable amount before it becomes too prohibitive.

All true but if you have Deandre Jordan on a rookie contract instead of JR Giddens, there might be some more titles in Boston.  And Jordan isn't a hindsight thing as I and many others on this board wanted Ainge to draft him that year (others were calling for Chris Douglas-Roberts, who hasn't been great but at least was a useful bench player for a few years). 

What made San Antonio so good was their drafting.  I mean they take George Hill and right when he starts coming on trade him for Kawhi Leonard.  Udrih and Splitter were both 28th picks.  Mahinimi 2nd round pick.  Dejuan Blair 2nd round pick.  I mean even Parker was a late 1st and Manu was a late 2nd.  The Spurs have been so good because they have supplemented their 3 stars by making excellent draft picks. 

[MBunge]

What made San Antonio so good was their drafting.

In 2008, the Spurs drafted Goran Dragic, then traded him for Malik Hairston.  They straight up released Hairston in 2010.

In 2010, the Spurs took James Anderson with the 20th pick in the draft.  He spent time in the D-League and the Spurs did not pick up the option on his rookie contract.  Taken in the draft after Anderson were Jordan Crawford, Quincy Pondexter, Landry Fields and Lance Stephenson.

What idiots!

Mike

[Beat LA]

What made San Antonio so good was their drafting.

In 2008, the Spurs drafted Goran Dragic, then traded him for Malik Hairston.  They straight up released Hairston in 2010.

In 2010, the Spurs took James Anderson with the 20th pick in the draft.  He spent time in the D-League and the Spurs did not pick up the option on his rookie contract.  Taken in the draft after Anderson were Jordan Crawford, Quincy Pondexter, Landry Fields and Lance Stephenson.

What idiots!

Mike

Um, in 2008, the Spurs also took George Hill 26th, so...

[Beat LA]

Did Ainge ever admitted to make a mistake in trading Perkins?

Why admit something that isn't true?

I believe that group was capable of winning another title.  A bit of adjustment and addition like Spurs did would've done wonders for us.  You may point to Perkins regression in OKC as a justification but I'm a believer that that move was responsible for that.  It also affected everyone else on the team that season and beyond.  It was a glaring mistake.  What exactly did we got in return?  Uncle snooze.  How has that worked out for us?

Even though the loss of Perk obviously hurt our interior defense, I think that his "toughness" could have been replaced had we signed Leon Powe, who had been bought out and wanted to return to Boston, but again, nothing.  Morris Peterson was also released by Charlotte.  Why didn't we look into him, especially after Marquis went down?

The same Powe who couldnt get minutes after rehab and couldn't get signed anywhere else? Oh Please.

Leon signed with the Grizzlies after being waived by the Cavs, and played quite well for them, so I don't know what version of history it is that you're incorrectly remembering.