Poll

Why haven't the Celtics drafted any/many good centers under Ainge?

They have, his name is Kendrick Perkins/Jefferson or Player X should be considered a center.
14 (22.2%)
Center talent is rare, the Celtics track record is average compared to other teams.
14 (22.2%)
Poor development/coaching.
2 (3.2%)
They simply take the BPA/haven't often been in the right slot to take good centers.
11 (17.5%)
Their philosophy/draft strategy/system/roster made it lower priority.
5 (7.9%)
A combination/all of options 2-6.
14 (22.2%)
None of the above.
3 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 62

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Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2014, 10:27:50 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013 ;D 

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.  I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2014, 11:59:32 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Did Ainge ever admitted to make a mistake in trading Perkins?

Why admit something that isn't true?

I believe that group was capable of winning another title.  A bit of adjustment and addition like Spurs did would've done wonders for us.  You may point to Perkins regression in OKC as a justification but I'm a believer that that move was responsible for that.  It also affected everyone else on the team that season and beyond.  It was a glaring mistake.  What exactly did we got in return?  Uncle snooze.  How has that worked out for us?

We had Shaq and JO. Losing Perkins wasn't the problem. Had we not traded Perk, we would have had exactly zero wing depth
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2014, 12:58:48 AM »

Offline redrobot

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The fact that they never taken foreign players who are often the kind of hidden gems you need to take later in the draft bothers me to no end. This past draft was the same, with the Celtics not seeming to show much interest in Nuric, Capela, or Walter Tavares. Not saying those guys are any good, but other teams have successfully mined the foreign leagues for talent in the past 15 years and the Celtics seem allergic to it. Is it all Jerome Moiso's fault?

I blame Jiri Welsch and Stojko Vrankovic. Alaa Abdelnaby gets a pass rom The Chief.

Thanks for the draft breakdown though. It's real easy to use the hindsight goggles and point out the misses, but around draft time I don't really remember a lot of support for Asik or the younger Gasol or even David Lee. There's always a handful of later picks that outperform those they were passed over for. That's what makes the draft fun for the audience.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2014, 02:06:17 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Quote
The fact that they never taken foreign players who are often the kind of hidden gems you need to take later in the draft bothers me to no end. This past draft was the same, with the Celtics not seeming to show much interest in Nuric, Capela, or Walter Tavares. Not saying those guys are any good, but other teams have successfully mined the foreign leagues for talent in the past 15 years and the Celtics seem allergic to it. Is it all Jerome Moiso's fault?

I blame Jiri Welsch and Stojko Vrankovic. Alaa Abdelnaby gets a pass rom The Chief.

Thanks for the draft breakdown though. It's real easy to use the hindsight goggles and point out the misses, but around draft time I don't really remember a lot of support for Asik or the younger Gasol or even David Lee. There's always a handful of later picks that outperform those they were passed over for. That's what makes the draft fun for the audience.

Ah yes, Jiri Welsch.  Ugh lol.  It might not be the talent evaluation that's the problem, though.  We did, after all, draft Dino Radja in 1989, but he didn't come over until 1993 because of the court case and contract dispute, so maybe that's what's hindered our efforts.  Perhaps players don't want to come here because of what happened with Dino.  It's too bad, really.  That 89 draft could have given us Hardaway and Radja :o, and that's just simply incredible when you think about it.  Sigh.  Who knows?  Ainge can barely draft American-born players lol ;D

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2014, 03:04:47 AM »

Offline MBunge

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We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

Matthews went undrafted, which means every other GM in the league made the exact same HUGE MISTAKE.

Mike

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2014, 04:50:28 AM »

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He drafted two. 


How many good C have there been drafted after he drafted?  How many of those C were the better prospect then he picked? 

What was the team's need or direction at that point?

The first example that comes to mind was skipping DeAndre Jordan for J.R. Giddens.


It was a terrible pick. 


But what was the Celtics needs that offseason?

He also passed right over Omer Asik

What is the fascination with Asik?  He has virtually no skill aside from his height, and he's a horrible free throw shooter.  I don't care what the advanced metrics say in regards to him, he's grossly overrated on here, imo.

  Defense is a skill. So is rebounding.
And Asik is quite good at both of them. I'm not really an Asik fan, but I think he cops a bit too much flak sometimes

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2014, 06:35:55 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013 ;D 

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.  I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

I think the reason few people bring up Posey is because he got out of shape after the deal and was a disappointment. I guess you could argue that in Boston he wouldn't have been allowed to be lazy but my feeling is Posey knew it was his last big deal and was just playing out the string with minimum effort. I guess we'll never know if he would have tried harder in Boston.

The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2014, 07:52:54 AM »

Offline Celtics17

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I always felt that not resigning Posey was Ainge's biggest mistake, at least as far as not resigning a player goes. It is very difficult as a player to be able to give the team the things it really needs at just the times those things are needed. Posey supplied great D and was very versatile in this area, hit the big shots and made the right plays at the right times. Was he going to be too expensive for his contract in a couple of years, sure, but we may have gotten another shot at a title had he stuck around. There is too little emphasis put on 'glue' guys in sports and it should be the opposite.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2014, 08:43:06 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I always felt that not resigning Posey was Ainge's biggest mistake

Posey did nothing after leaving here.

Ainge's biggest mistake was basing a team on old guys which no young star prospects up and coming.    It got us a title but look at us now, the window was very small.   It was probably Ainge's biggest success too.   But no one can beat father time.   Game over, starting again.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2014, 09:56:50 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Since Ainge began drafting in 2004, the Celtics have missed out on:

Varajao-took Al Jefferson, which netted us KG. glad we missed out on him
David Lee- Not a Center. Bad draft though (gerald green)
Blatche- headcase, though we shouldve picked anyone other than Green
Gortat-clear miss, tbf a lot of teams did and hes an international player. Ainge should hire better international scouts.
Hawes-Drafted Jeff Green (traded for Ray) again, glad we missed out
Marc Gasol-see above
Noah-see Hawes
Pekovic-clear miss, one of Ainge's worst draft year
Asik-see above, ill add Jordan to this list
Miles Plumlee-shouldve been taken instead of The Fabolous Melo
Dieng-took Olynyk, jury is out (although I wouldntve taken Dieng and took the Greek Freak instead)
Nurkic-took smart, nurkic would be a reach there and was picked before their next pick
McGary-Early to tell if hes a better pick than James Young

From Above the only clear misses Ainge had was the year he drafted Giddens, Fab Melo. and Gerald Green. Draft is a crapshoot, and the only draft where you can say at that time that Ainge shouldve drafted a big was in the Giddens draft (Asik Jordan Pekovic). The Rationale though was we were set in bigs at that time (Perk, KG, Powe, Big Baby were healthy) and we had to replace James Posey. We didnt know at that time that Perk, KG, and Powe would have career altering injuries.

The draft is not a crap-shoot.  There are always talented players available.  Always.  Even in 2013 ;D 

Now, you may be right about Perk, but I seem to recall the bone spurs in KG's knee being discovered prior to the 08-09 season, and Powe, like Bill Walton, was, unfortunately, a ticking time bomb with those knees.  We also shouldn't have had to replace Posey - we should have resigned him.  Period.  I don't care if it was for 4 years or not.

 The draft is a crap shoot. And Posey wasn't anywhere close to worth that deal. Danny was smart to pass on it.

Really?  The MLE for 4 years was too expensive for our glue guy who hit huge shots, played great defense at multiple positions and was Mr. Intangibles?  Come on, man.  We never replaced him, and the only guy that might have come close to doing so, Wesley Matthews, was passed over in the 2009 draft.  Ugh.

  Yes, the MLE for 4 years was too expensive for Posey. His biggest value add to the 2008 team was those intangibles, such as grit, toughness, championship experience and leadership. After the team won the title they had all those things in spades. It would have been a foolish signing.

I remember wanting to throw the tv out the window when we passed on him, especially for Lester Hudson?  Come on, Danny - wake up!  The kid wasn't even in the league for two years before he was gone.  It's one thing to miss out on players, but it's quite another to take guys who won't even be in the league in two years.  That's pathetic, so for Danny, yeah, the draft is a crap shoot.  Ginobili was taken at 57.  It's not like this hasn't happened before.  It's rare, yes, but it does happen, and those opportunities are few and far between.  We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

  Your analysis of Danny's drafting is fairly ridiculous. If you're going to compare a GM's draft picks to the best players who were chosen after them then every GM in the history of the league will look bad. Danny's picks have been seen as well above average in pretty much every unbiased evaluation I've seen. Lester Hudson seems like a bad pick when you compare him to one player that *everyone* passed on, including the GM of the team he ended up on. But if you take a more realistic view of the situation you'd realize that most of the players drafted at that spot never play in a single nba game, the pick doesn't look so bad.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2014, 10:47:42 AM »

Offline MBunge

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The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

If Posey had been asked to do what Green has on this team, he'd have been a disaster. 
Green could start for most teams in the league and would be a rotation  player on even the best.  Just because he's not as good as we think he could be, doesn't make him Michael Beasley.

And the thing that everyone forgets is that Nenad Krstic came along with Green.  Krstic was the starting center for a Thunder team that made the playoffs in the Western Conference.  It was losing him for nothing that left Boston strapped for quality bigs.  And while I'm sure it was NBA labor troubles that mostly caused him to go back to Europe, Doc refusing to play him in the playoffs could not have helped.

Mike

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2014, 11:24:43 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

If Posey had been asked to do what Green has on this team, he'd have been a disaster. 
Green could start for most teams in the league and would be a rotation  player on even the best.  Just because he's not as good as we think he could be, doesn't make him Michael Beasley.

And the thing that everyone forgets is that Nenad Krstic came along with Green.  Krstic was the starting center for a Thunder team that made the playoffs in the Western Conference.  It was losing him for nothing that left Boston strapped for quality bigs.  And while I'm sure it was NBA labor troubles that mostly caused him to go back to Europe, Doc refusing to play him in the playoffs could not have helped.

Mike

Right, that's why I was said Green wasn't a "direct replacement" for Posey. I guess should have just said "not a replacement" though, because I didn't mean to compare their actual skill set. I was just making a general point about making roster moves after a title. As Patriots fans are undoubtedly aware, you have to let the veterans go sometimes. However, the replacement that seems to fit well (or occasionally better) on paper sometimes doesn't seem to mesh.

Obviously baseball is not as much of a team sport as basketball and football but Edgar Renteria comes to mind. Orlando Cabrera didn't put up sexy numbers and Renteria should have more than replaced his offensive and defensive production, in theory. Instead, he was never comfortable and had a disappointing year. On the other hand, you could say sometimes the original guy was just hot and chances are would fall back down to earth.

I don't have an answer as to whether it really matters or if we're just overrating guys who were on championship teams because of nostalgia, but it's always a fascinating, neverending debate.

Actually, looking back at Renteria's numbers, he certainly did have a lesser year compared to his average but it also wasn't a total disaster. In that case it was probably a little unfair scapegoating since the team wasn't able to repeat.

As far as Green goes, I don't want to get that started in this thread! He is what he is, I think. I thought he could have been more once, but he's clearly not going to be that now.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2014, 11:46:35 AM »

Offline BballTim

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The whole Posey negotiation is the same old story - in a vacuum, the FA isn't necessarily worth the money but the problem is you don't have a replacement. Also, you possibly underestimate the value of intangibles and chemistry. Not that Jeff Green was a direct replacement for Posey, but let's use him (Green) as an example of someone who on paper should have fulfilled a lot of team needs, but for whatever reason seemed to be missing that undefinable "it."

If Posey had been asked to do what Green has on this team, he'd have been a disaster. 
Green could start for most teams in the league and would be a rotation  player on even the best.  Just because he's not as good as we think he could be, doesn't make him Michael Beasley.

And the thing that everyone forgets is that Nenad Krstic came along with Green.  Krstic was the starting center for a Thunder team that made the playoffs in the Western Conference.  It was losing him for nothing that left Boston strapped for quality bigs.  And while I'm sure it was NBA labor troubles that mostly caused him to go back to Europe, Doc refusing to play him in the playoffs could not have helped.

Mike

Right, that's why I was said Green wasn't a "direct replacement" for Posey. I guess should have just said "not a replacement" though, because I didn't mean to compare their actual skill set. I was just making a general point about making roster moves after a title. As Patriots fans are undoubtedly aware, you have to let the veterans go sometimes. However, the replacement that seems to fit well (or occasionally better) on paper sometimes doesn't seem to mesh.

Obviously baseball is not as much of a team sport as basketball and football but Edgar Renteria comes to mind. Orlando Cabrera didn't put up sexy numbers and Renteria should have more than replaced his offensive and defensive production, in theory. Instead, he was never comfortable and had a disappointing year. On the other hand, you could say sometimes the original guy was just hot and chances are would fall back down to earth.

I don't have an answer as to whether it really matters or if we're just overrating guys who were on championship teams because of nostalgia, but it's always a fascinating, neverending debate.

Actually, looking back at Renteria's numbers, he certainly did have a lesser year compared to his average but it also wasn't a total disaster. In that case it was probably a little unfair scapegoating since the team wasn't able to repeat.

As far as Green goes, I don't want to get that started in this thread! He is what he is, I think. I thought he could have been more once, but he's clearly not going to be that now.

  The replacement for Posey was really TA.  He was injured for much of 2009 but his play in the 2010 playoffs was important to the team.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2014, 12:40:37 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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  The replacement for Posey was really TA.  He was injured for much of 2009 but his play in the 2010 playoffs was important to the team.

Yeah, though unfortunately Tony was only a D guy, instead of 3 and D. Also, he didn't play as much as Posey, probably because his lack of offense made him limited. The Celtics were never going to start him so that's why he left for Memphis even though I believe the money was the same or slightly less.

Re: Poll: Celtics haven't drafted many good centers under Ainge. Why?
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2014, 08:49:01 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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We needed Matthews.  He would have made a huge difference, on both ends, not just for that year, but for the subsequent ones.  HUGE MISTAKE.  Ugh.

Matthews went undrafted, which means every other GM in the league made the exact same HUGE MISTAKE.

Mike

So if everyone messed up it's okay for Danny to do the same, despite the fact that by any objective measure Matthews was clearly the bpa at 57, or have I misunderstood what you've said?