Paul George says stupid things in defense of Ray Rice

[Ogaju]

I remember sometimes not using great judgment at 24 (Paul George).  It's a condition he may outgrow. 

I think Rice didn't make a bad decision, I think he actually made no decision.  He acted impulsively.  It is scary when a strong man (as many men do) reacts to his own anger by aggressing violently (over-reacting), even when the person they are aggressing against is significantly less powerful.  To me, it isn't that she's a woman, per se -- I'd feel the same if he did that to anyone with whom the power differential is significant.   Ray needs to re-train himself to react with restraint (meaning he needs to activate a thought process before/when emotions rise).  If attacked, the powerful individual should first defend (block), walk away, and then (if necessary) safely restrain the other individual.  If your anger/rage mechanism is tapped so easily, you've got a problem that will eventually result in someone being seriously hurt (perhaps a child next time).   Rice could easily have done lots more damage than was actually done in that elevator -- he, and she, are lucky.

That is not to say that I that I think it's easy for some people to control their own rage.  This is especially true if they, like millions of Americans, were either victims of, or witness to, domestic violence.  Models for how to deal with anger are important for children, and lacking such a model can have very bad results.   I definitely have some sympathy for Rice -- he probably does feel bad, and perhaps he is shocked by his own behavior.  I hope that he realizes that alcohol (which they've discussed played a big part in this) can further dull a person's ability to manage rage.  But the answer can't be as simple as stopping the drinking.  He probably has to dig deep if he's going to avoid ever losing control violently again. 

I hope he does work hard and get the right help -- some perpetrators actually do stop.  If she is committed to work with him, live with him, have their children live with him, all I can say is that I hope it never happens again.

TP ...This post shows a near perfect understanding of the issue. And if everyone were to take this approach instead of looking at it as a woman vs. man issue society will seek quicker and faster resolution. It is exactly what Neurotic said it is a domestic violence issue, if you make it sex neutral and instead make it a weak vs. strong issue one significant segment of society will feel less attacked and defensive and we will all work together to solve this issue.

[D.o.s.]

http://deadspin.com/the-only-thing-unusual-about-ray-and-janay-rice-is-that-1633583402

[The Walker Wiggle]

...when you value privacy and others affairs over the safety of women, you get a lot of beaten and dead women. Which is a choice we're making in this society everyday.

All I can do is roll my eyes, but that feels inadequate because your sort of attitude enables a lot of violence across this world. Janay is in a crappy situation and I hope she's safe amid this stressful time, but abuse victims ask to just move on all the time. It doesn't end well for far too many of them.

Quoted for truth.

[Clench123]

I don't think you get it. All i get by your replys is that you are mr perfect and when provoked etc. you are calm as a cucumber and thats how everyone should be.   I don't think you understand ppl are not perfect, make mistakes, emotions, rage etc.

Then you start saying inaccurate things that what i just said (trying to understand the situation deeper)  or my attidue is a way to enable violance across the world.   

Your starting things and pointing fingers. Your the aggressor in this thread so far. 

Not everyone is going to come behind you and start attacking George.  Just bc they want to try to understand deeper into the issue, does not mean they encourage to enable violance.

Of course I'm not perfect, but that doesn't really matter. We're not discussing my conduct but rather that of Ray Rice.

I'm not empathetic to his "side" of this manner like you are apparently. I am empathetic to the idea that he doesn't have the tools to control his anger and might need help, but given his utter lack of remorse I worry its not a lack of control that drives him. I fear his need for control is more important to him.

My aggression on this issue stems from the stridency of my feelings on the issue of domestic violence, especially against women. If you're uncomfortable with me pointing out that trying to shift blame to the victims for provocation is an enabler of violence all I can do is shrug. Because it flat out is a contributor to the societal attitudes that have enabled wife/woman beating across our history and present. That's clearly uncomfortable for you, the fear of violence that might be inflicted on woman's bodies is far more uncomfortable to them.

Anyways You're turning your focus to me and how I'm affecting your feelings, instead of the issue at hand. I'm not the issue and neither are you, Ray Rice and Paul George's support of Ray Rice are the issue.

Your reaction sort of suggest you're taking this very personal, which makes me question your judgement on the matter.  Your argument is very one sided.  But that's just my opinion. 

Yea, Jay and Solange case is very relevant.  It was a domestic abuse case as well.  That alone makes it relevant. 

I sort of understand what George is saying but I would've just kept my mouth shut if I was in his shoes.

[D.o.s.]

I don't think you get it. All i get by your replys is that you are mr perfect and when provoked etc. you are calm as a cucumber and thats how everyone should be.   I don't think you understand ppl are not perfect, make mistakes, emotions, rage etc.

Then you start saying inaccurate things that what i just said (trying to understand the situation deeper)  or my attidue is a way to enable violance across the world.   

Your starting things and pointing fingers. Your the aggressor in this thread so far. 

Not everyone is going to come behind you and start attacking George.  Just bc they want to try to understand deeper into the issue, does not mean they encourage to enable violance.

Of course I'm not perfect, but that doesn't really matter. We're not discussing my conduct but rather that of Ray Rice.

I'm not empathetic to his "side" of this manner like you are apparently. I am empathetic to the idea that he doesn't have the tools to control his anger and might need help, but given his utter lack of remorse I worry its not a lack of control that drives him. I fear his need for control is more important to him.

My aggression on this issue stems from the stridency of my feelings on the issue of domestic violence, especially against women. If you're uncomfortable with me pointing out that trying to shift blame to the victims for provocation is an enabler of violence all I can do is shrug. Because it flat out is a contributor to the societal attitudes that have enabled wife/woman beating across our history and present. That's clearly uncomfortable for you, the fear of violence that might be inflicted on woman's bodies is far more uncomfortable to them.

Anyways You're turning your focus to me and how I'm affecting your feelings, instead of the issue at hand. I'm not the issue and neither are you, Ray Rice and Paul George's support of Ray Rice are the issue.

Your reaction sort of suggest you're taking this very personal, which makes me question your judgement on the matter.  Your argument is very one sided.  But that's just my opinion. 

Yea, Jay and Solange case is very relevant.  It was a domestic abuse case as well.  That alone makes it relevant. 

I sort of understand what George is saying but I would've just kept my mouth shut if I was in his shoes.

Jay Z is less relevant to this incident than Jared Sullinger. Why don't we talk about that?

[Clench123]

I don't think you get it. All i get by your replys is that you are mr perfect and when provoked etc. you are calm as a cucumber and thats how everyone should be.   I don't think you understand ppl are not perfect, make mistakes, emotions, rage etc.

Then you start saying inaccurate things that what i just said (trying to understand the situation deeper)  or my attidue is a way to enable violance across the world.   

Your starting things and pointing fingers. Your the aggressor in this thread so far. 

Not everyone is going to come behind you and start attacking George.  Just bc they want to try to understand deeper into the issue, does not mean they encourage to enable violance.

Of course I'm not perfect, but that doesn't really matter. We're not discussing my conduct but rather that of Ray Rice.

I'm not empathetic to his "side" of this manner like you are apparently. I am empathetic to the idea that he doesn't have the tools to control his anger and might need help, but given his utter lack of remorse I worry its not a lack of control that drives him. I fear his need for control is more important to him.

My aggression on this issue stems from the stridency of my feelings on the issue of domestic violence, especially against women. If you're uncomfortable with me pointing out that trying to shift blame to the victims for provocation is an enabler of violence all I can do is shrug. Because it flat out is a contributor to the societal attitudes that have enabled wife/woman beating across our history and present. That's clearly uncomfortable for you, the fear of violence that might be inflicted on woman's bodies is far more uncomfortable to them.

Anyways You're turning your focus to me and how I'm affecting your feelings, instead of the issue at hand. I'm not the issue and neither are you, Ray Rice and Paul George's support of Ray Rice are the issue.

Your reaction sort of suggest you're taking this very personal, which makes me question your judgement on the matter.  Your argument is very one sided.  But that's just my opinion. 

Yea, Jay and Solange case is very relevant.  It was a domestic abuse case as well.  That alone makes it relevant. 

I sort of understand what George is saying but I would've just kept my mouth shut if I was in his shoes.

Jay Z is less relevant to this incident than Jared Sullinger. Why don't we talk about that?

Yea, let's talk about it.  It's just as relevant.  It's a domestic abuse, regardless of these guys' occupations.  I just picked one out of many for my comparisons.  The reaction (or overreaction at that) when a female is the victim compared to how everyone pretty much just laughs it off when male is the victim (which is more than males on females) is ridiculous.  No one around here was up in arms during the Jay Z/Solange saga but we have threads full of this Ray Rice issue already just because the victim is a female.  I'm not condoning what he did or what happened.  It's the stupid one sided reaction from the public that got to me

[D.o.s.]

we have threads full of this Ray Rice issue already just because the victim is a female

Wrong. Try again.

Here's a question for you: Would you rather take a punch from Ray Rice or Solange?

[GreenWarrior]

The one question i have is, how long is rice suppose to be shamed about the stupid thing he did?

If the answer is forever. Well thats not right either. He can never find a job, he can never etc etc.

Im just stating nobody is perfect. You serve your punishment, you learn your lesson, you can be allowed to move on.   This is not for the stupid thing rice did but anything major anyone does (except life sentences). This is just my opinion

I personally don't see how guys like vick and rice show their face in public or even want to. they'll always be looked down on in my eyes. I don't know how they overcome it...or in vicks case overcame it.

if it were me I wouldn't be able to. and I don't know how somebody who hasn't been in a similar situation can truly answer that.

so your going to hate yourself for the rest of your life?   

well I am going to try my hardest to not knock Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.es out and try not to kill some mutts by starving 'em and having 'em fight each other.

but if I did find myself doing such things, yeah I'd hate myself forever.

[Roy H.]

Your reaction sort of suggest you're taking this very personal, which makes me question your judgement on the matter.  Your argument is very one sided.  But that's just my opinion. 

Yea, Jay and Solange case is very relevant.  It was a domestic abuse case as well.  That alone makes it relevant. 

I sort of understand what George is saying but I would've just kept my mouth shut if I was in his shoes.

Under many circumstances, I would agree with you.  There are some organizations that are so invested in helping victims of domestic violence that it can become a cottage industry.  Many anti-DV programs are really anti-men programs.   In court, while cross examining the head of a local "Batterer's Intervention Program", I was told that my client was a "sexual abuser".  Why?  Because he always had to get the last word in in an argument, and because he woke his wife up (at noontime) to help with the children.  So, there's a segment of society that is sexist and off their rocker on this issue.  I don't think that's Fafnir, but I absolutely agree that being heavily invested in an issue that can affect one's perception.

Similarly, I think that a number of alleged victims are scammers, and I think the system goes out of its way to enable those scammers.  At least in my jurisdiction, judges are WAY too quick to impose orders of protection, and police are way too quick to arrest men under even the weakest of circumstances.  It can be disgusting to see a guy held in jail on excessive cash bail when the facts point to his innocence (let alone that he's innocent until proven guilty).  It's even more difficult to see female perpetrators of domestic violence often given a pass, while males are dealt with harshly.

So, I'm one of the most sympathetic audiences there is regarding the issue of not jumping to conclusions.  But here's where I don't agree with Paul George:  It's not justifiable to go off and clock your wife, knocking her out, even if you feel provoked.  Even if she touched him first, that doesn't justify a professional athlete knocking her out.  Here, there's no doubt that Rice crossed a line, and crossed it egregiously.  There's not a lot of room for argument:  he's guilty.

As much as I hate people who abuse the system and get people wrongfully convicted, I am more disgusted by people who break the law and then skate by because they have psychologically manipulated their victims into begging the perpetrators to take them back.  Unfortunately, that happens very frequently.  Here in Maine, we've seen at least a dozen DV-related murders and maimings over the last couple of years. 

I guess what I'm saying is that just because there are some victims who cry wolf, we can't go easy on those predators who really do victimize their partners.

[Fafnir]

I remember sometimes not using great judgment at 24 (Paul George).  It's a condition he may outgrow. 

I think Rice didn't make a bad decision, I think he actually made no decision.  He acted impulsively.  It is scary when a strong man (as many men do) reacts to his own anger by aggressing violently (over-reacting), even when the person they are aggressing against is significantly less powerful.  To me, it isn't that she's a woman, per se -- I'd feel the same if he did that to anyone with whom the power differential is significant.   Ray needs to re-train himself to react with restraint (meaning he needs to activate a thought process before/when emotions rise).  If attacked, the powerful individual should first defend (block), walk away, and then (if necessary) safely restrain the other individual.  If your anger/rage mechanism is tapped so easily, you've got a problem that will eventually result in someone being seriously hurt (perhaps a child next time).   Rice could easily have done lots more damage than was actually done in that elevator -- he, and she, are lucky.

That is not to say that I that I think it's easy for some people to control their own rage.  This is especially true if they, like millions of Americans, were either victims of, or witness to, domestic violence.  Models for how to deal with anger are important for children, and lacking such a model can have very bad results.   I definitely have some sympathy for Rice -- he probably does feel bad, and perhaps he is shocked by his own behavior.  I hope that he realizes that alcohol (which they've discussed played a big part in this) can further dull a person's ability to manage rage.  But the answer can't be as simple as stopping the drinking.  He probably has to dig deep if he's going to avoid ever losing control violently again. 

I hope he does work hard and get the right help -- some perpetrators actually do stop.  If she is committed to work with him, live with him, have their children live with him, all I can say is that I hope it never happens again.

TP ...This post shows a near perfect understanding of the issue. And if everyone were to take this approach instead of looking at it as a woman vs. man issue society will seek quicker and faster resolution. It is exactly what Neurotic said it is a domestic violence issue, if you make it sex neutral and instead make it a weak vs. strong issue one significant segment of society will feel less attacked and defensive and we will all work together to solve this issue.

The issue with approaching this as gender neutral is that the vast majority of victims are women, and the vast majority of abusers are men.

Its not a gender neutral problem. I really suggest you read the article that D.O.S. linked.

[Clench123]

we have threads full of this Ray Rice issue already just because the victim is a female

Wrong. Try again.

Here's a question for you: Would you rather take a punch from Ray Rice or Solange?

I wouldn't want to take it from either one but if I had to...

I would rather take a punch from Ray Rice because I know I can hit back without worrying about being subjected to public's criticisms.  I won't have to tuck my balls in and just walk away, hiding my wounds, out of fear of public's retaliation and crucifixion. 

And there are two or three threads going on over this, unless they've been merged.

[Fafnir]

we have threads full of this Ray Rice issue already just because the victim is a female

Wrong. Try again.

Here's a question for you: Would you rather take a punch from Ray Rice or Solange?

The amount of violence inflicted matters an awful lot too. Jay Z wasn't knocked unconscious and dragged into the elevator door.

[Fafnir]

I guess what I'm saying is that just because there are some victims who cry wolf, we can't go easy on those predators who really do victimize their partners.

And there isn't any ambiguity here, given the videotape. Plus remember that the majority of assaults aren't reported. The unusual thing about this case is that the circumstances aren't in dispute.

[D.o.s.]

we have threads full of this Ray Rice issue already just because the victim is a female

Wrong. Try again.

Here's a question for you: Would you rather take a punch from Ray Rice or Solange?

I wouldn't want to take it from either one but if I had to...

I would rather take a punch from Ray Rice because I know I can hit back without worrying about being subjected to public's criticisms.  I won't have to tuck my balls in and just walk away, hiding my wounds, out of fear of public's retaliation and crucifixion. 

And there are two or three threads going on over this, unless they've been merged.

There are threads going on, but it's not because Rice hit his wife. Someone else tried to use Michael Sam's boyfriend in the other thread, and it's just as stupid when you substitute Solange instead.

re: the punching, I do appreciate your adorable attempt at protecting your online masculinity.

[indeedproceed]

we have threads full of this Ray Rice issue already just because the victim is a female

Wrong. Try again.

Here's a question for you: Would you rather take a punch from Ray Rice or Solange?

I wouldn't want like to take it from either one but if I have to...

I would rather take a punch from Ray Rice because I know I can hit back without worrying about being subjected to public's criticism.  I won't have to tuck my balls in and just walk away, hiding my wounds, out of fear of public's retaliation and crucifixion. 

And there are two or three threads going on over this, unless they've been merged.

The way you phrase that, 'tuck your balls, hide your wounds our of fear' says a lot to me. It's a very masculine point of view. What's your option if you're a woman? Because hiding your wounds out of fear of retaliation and future suffering is a pretty big hallmark of relationships affected by domestic violence.