Author Topic: Rondo for Westbrook  (Read 10364 times)

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Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2014, 12:06:44 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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As was Eric Maynor's game, I suppose? or Royal Ivey?

Brookes has always run a limited motion offense based on two perimeter scorers that also double as their primary ball handlers. That's part of the (on the court reasons) reason they traded James Harden, because Brooks could get away with plugging in a guy like Reggie Jackson as another ball handler, while their defense depends heavily on Ibaka.

You'd have to go back to their last season in Seattle to see anything different, because there's a different head coach -- and you don't, unless the idea of Kevin Durant, shooting guard, strikes your fancy.

I'm sure that's all true, but if he had Rondo at the point instead of Westbrook, he'd be forced to have an offense that looked quite different.

Rondo and Durant would still be the primary ball handlers, but, naturally, Rondo would be looking to pass the ball much more than Westbrook.  That fact would drastically change the way their offense looked, even with Scottie Brooks still running the show. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2014, 12:09:47 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think it's a 50/50 proposition. You could either wind up with an adjusted offense, or you could wind up with a Steve Francis/Jeff Van Gundy problem, where JVG refuses to adjust to the talents of his point guards.

JVG was in the wrong there, and he's admitted it, but it doesn't mean that all coaches are malleable enough to adjust to their rosters.*



*Doc's a pretty good example of that, IMO.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 12:12:57 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I think it's a 50/50 proposition. You could either wind up with an adjusted offense, or you could wind up with a Steve Francis/Jeff Van Gundy problem, where JVG refuses to adjust to the talents of his point guards.

JVG was in the wrong there, and he's admitted it, but it doesn't mean that all coaches are malleable enough to adjust to their rosters.*



*Doc's a pretty good example of that, IMO.

I get what you are saying, but my point is that if you replaced Rondo with Westbrook in OKC, and Brooks was still the coach and ran the exact same plays, the offense would still look very different based solely on the very different styles of the two point guards. 

Scottie Brooks couldn't make Rondo play like Westbrook or make Westbrook play like Rondo even if he tried. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2014, 12:15:56 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Ah. Following. I'm in a bit of a nyquil daze right now.

I don't know how much different that would look, actually. More passes out of Rondo coming during/after the initial pick and roll, probably.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2014, 12:22:48 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Ah. Following. I'm in a bit of a nyquil daze right now.

I don't know how much different that would look, actually. More passes out of Rondo coming during/after the initial pick and roll, probably.

I don't think that would represent an insignificant difference as far as how the offense looked. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2014, 12:34:36 AM »

Offline Vox_Populi

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so instead of teams double teaming westbrook and spacing the floor for Durant, they would sag off rondo and triple team durant making OKC 10 times worse on offense. sounds like a winning strategy for OKC. rondo is the last person the thunder want.

I think it's been proven that OKC's current offense of Westbrook, Durant, Westbrook, Westbrook, Durant and Ibaka isn't going to get it done.  Getting Rondo as the first step in building a real NBA offense would make plenty of sense.

Mike
I'm not so sure. When healthy, they can usually freelance their way on offense to the WCF, and it's not hard to see a scenario where they beat SA. That's probably what annoys people so much. They have enough talent to compensate for their lack of offensive organization, so how much better could they be if they executed better?

Regardless, I'd be the first to say that Westbrook often doesn't help their offense run smoothly. But F me if 27ppg/7rbg/8apg/2spg aren't LeBron James numbers. Actually, scratch that, Oscar Robertson numbers. I'm a big Rondo fan, but this guy is just too talented to give up. Probably regardless of fit.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2014, 12:45:33 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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I agree that this trade will never happen, but it should. Durant is worthy of having his own team and given a chance he can carry a team and franchise. It seems to me that Westbrook wants the opportunity to do the same. I don't know that he can, but he will never find out in OKC with Durant. These two should be split up.

I don't know why OKC wont pull the trigger on getting rid of Westbrook to get some more complimentary pieces for Durant, but one theory is that they sense that Durant is bailing to Lakers as soon as he gets the opportunity. That would be a good reason to hold on to Westie.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2014, 06:42:50 AM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Brooks was too stubborn to bench Perkins in the Finals when it was clear he was woefully ineffective against Miami.  He's gotten better with that (see: benching Sefolosha and then Butler in the playoffs), but I'm not entirely accepting of the idea that he would readily change his iso-heavy offense.  That's a fundamental shift in his game plan; benching Sefolosha/Butler was just shuffling around replaceable role players, which a coach SHOULD be willing to do when necessary.

And again, it's simply illogical to jettison Westbrook over the coach.  You don't trade away a top 10 player to retain a coach who hasn't won anything significant yet.  Particularly when that top 10 player isn't even to blame for the team's shortcomings the past two seasons -- that is, unless you want to hold getting injured by Patrick Beverley against Westbrook.

Westbrook was, BY FAR, the team's best player throughout the playoffs this season and that's not because he wasn't letting Durant shine.  Durant had his worst playoffs since his first appearance, probably because he was burnt out from carrying the team during Westbrook's absences in the regular season since - *gasp* - that's the type of offense Brooks runs.

OKC went down in 2013 because Westbrook was hurt.  They went down in 2014 arguably because Ibaka was hurt and because their role players grew less effective as the playoffs went on.  Even in 2012, you can't put the Finals loss squarely on Westbrook, since it was more of a team-wide issue: inexperience.  Brooks didn't adjust, Harden was a no-show, and KD simply wasn't good enough yet to outplay LeBron, though he most certainly held his own.  Westbrook had baffling gaffes, but it'd be beyond disingenuous to argue that his foul against Chalmers in Game 4 was to blame for OKC losing the Finals.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 07:24:26 AM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2014, 08:25:57 AM »

Offline mdmcdd1117

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I brought up this very same idea as a Fan post in March.  I love the idea, and as much as I love Rondo as a player, he's not coming back next year, secondly, the Celtics need to evaluate their situation and address weaknesses.  Right now, with the addition of Smart, do the Celtics still need Westbrook?? I say, the Celtics need to start the season with what they have, and evaluate who is a busts, and who is the goods.  That way, a Rondo trade would be maximized, and true team value would be added.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2014, 09:29:12 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I brought up this very same idea as a Fan post in March.  I love the idea, and as much as I love Rondo as a player, he's not coming back next year, secondly, the Celtics need to evaluate their situation and address weaknesses.  Right now, with the addition of Smart, do the Celtics still need Westbrook?? I say, the Celtics need to start the season with what they have, and evaluate who is a busts, and who is the goods.  That way, a Rondo trade would be maximized, and true team value would be added.

I don't know that you can say he's gone for certain, though.
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Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2014, 09:46:51 AM »

Offline jambr380

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I don't think anybody can realistically say that a straight-up Rondo trade for Westbrook sounds totally fair. The good thing from our perspective is that we actually have plenty of assets/draft picks to help even out the deal.

The OKC model does seem a bit flawed and it may be in their best interest to maximize on a return for Westrbook. The trade is probably too blockbuster-y to actually happen, but there is a deal to be made here. From the Cs perspective, an improvement on Rondo is the only deal they should be making unless he makes it totally clear that he isn't returning.


Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2014, 11:31:43 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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OKC has the leverage in this because Westbrook is the best player and signed a few years. IMO a good deal is still out there for the teams. Rondo, Sully, Anthony,  AB for Westbrook and Perk would be great for OKC.

Rondo, AB, KD, Ibaka, Adams/Sully for OKC is very good.
Smart, Westbrook, Green, Olynyk, Zeller is good.


Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 12:16:49 PM »

Offline loco_91

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K.D. Last year proved Westbrook was no needed on the team as he carried them when West got hurt... OKC has maxed out their growth with West & K.D. being teammated. They simply are never going to win the chip together.


I doubt OKC sees it this way. Westbrook is clearly a better player than Rondo, but Rondo might possibly be a better fit with KD. OKC badly needs help at C, so if they moved Westbrook it would probably need to be a 3-team deal that got them Rondo and also a starting center. How about:

Rondo to OKC, Green and 2 picks to Detroit
Westbrook and Perk (expiring) to Boston
Monroe to OKC

This is a trade that might interest OKC if Rondo and Monroe both look good at the start of the year. Perk is just awful these days, so this trade clearly helps them next year. But maybe they'd rather let Perk expire and sign Monroe (or someone) in FA next year. The key to a trade like this would be KD's nod.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2014, 01:19:10 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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K.D. Last year proved Westbrook was no needed on the team as he carried them when West got hurt... OKC has maxed out their growth with West & K.D. being teammated. They simply are never going to win the chip together.


I doubt OKC sees it this way. Westbrook is clearly a better player than Rondo, but Rondo might possibly be a better fit with KD. OKC badly needs help at C, so if they moved Westbrook it would probably need to be a 3-team deal that got them Rondo and also a starting center. How about:

Rondo to OKC, Green and 2 picks to Detroit
Westbrook and Perk (expiring) to Boston
Monroe to OKC

This is a trade that might interest OKC if Rondo and Monroe both look good at the start of the year. Perk is just awful these days, so this trade clearly helps them next year. But maybe they'd rather let Perk expire and sign Monroe (or someone) in FA next year. The key to a trade like this would be KD's nod.

I wouldn't give up Rondo, Green and two first for Westbrook that is too much unless it's Philly and Clipper first.

Re: Rondo for Westbrook
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2014, 04:41:03 PM »

Online Moranis

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I don't get why anyone would think Oklahoma City would do this trade.  I mean it isn't like Durant is going to get 10% better from the field or shoot the ball 10 more times a game.  Durant's shots or percentage won't change much at all with Rondo as opposed to Westbrook, what will happen is Oklahoma City's overall offense will fall dramatically because they have no one that can take Westbrook's shots or who can get to the line like Westbrook. 

Now I'm sure Boston could put together a package centered around Rondo and Westbrook, but Boston would have to sweeten it a great deal before it would even be considered by OKC (i.e. Bradley, Olynyk, and a future 1st type of sweetening). 
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