Author Topic: Pacers forum mod: Green+Zeller+Young +Clippers pick+Philly pick for Hibbert  (Read 13184 times)

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Offline action781

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I absolutely pull the trigger on this.  We would be giving up a pupu platter of players who will *likely* never be real contributors on a championship team for a 27 year old player who absolutely can be a key player for a championship team by anchoring a top defensive team in the league.

I know people aren't impressed by Hibbert's last season, but you don't get opportunities to acquire players after they just had career years.  You get opportunities to acquire difference makers when you buy low.  Hibbert is a classic buy low opportunity b/c I think you can all agree that last season was his floor, he's not going to play worse than that.
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Offline D.o.s.

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On the flip side I don't believe that the Pacers even consider trading him for that package, especially since they've got Paul George coming back and any trade would be to make them better in an effort to keep playoff revenue and merch sales going.
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Offline Norcalceltic

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 ::) Do people actually watch games? Hibbert is way overrated. There are a few games in the playoffs where he disappeared completely. We're talking about a dude who averaged 9 points 5 rebounds in the playoffs last year. A 7'2 guy who can't rebound or run the floor, making 15 mil per year, and you want to trade 5 players for him? The ideas people come up with are mind boggling.

Offline LooseCannon

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Comparing Hibbert this past season in the playoffs to the previous two seasons makes it look like it is possible that there is an anomalous reason such as a hidden injury or personal issues that made Hibbert underperform this year.  Determining whether Hibbert is worth trading for might require access to resources that posters on a fan forum usually don't have access to.
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Offline 2short

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::) Do people actually watch games? Hibbert is way overrated. There are a few games in the playoffs where he disappeared completely. We're talking about a dude who averaged 9 points 5 rebounds in the playoffs last year. A 7'2 guy who can't rebound or run the floor, making 15 mil per year, and you want to trade 5 players for him? The ideas people come up with are mind boggling.
touche
you should have added that he was called out by teammates on his lack of effort as well

fitzhickey

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If this was on the table it Danny would have already done it. Hibbert isn't overpaid at all and if we're going to use that criticism the same can be said of Jeff Green.

Moving Green's expiring (assuming he opts-out), Young, Zeller and a late first (plus 2nds) is an absolute coup even for a slumping center. I'd throw that same package at BKN for Lopez, at Denver for McGee and at MIL for Sanders. Any takers on that package for a legit center is a good gamble.

For the record I don't even like Roy Hibbert. I just think he's worth more than some late picks and Jeff Green.
Jeff Green earns a fair contract for doing everything above average. Hibberts single skill is rim protection, and he is set to earn 15 million.

Offline chambers

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If this was on the table it Danny would have already done it. Hibbert isn't overpaid at all and if we're going to use that criticism the same can be said of Jeff Green.

Moving Green's expiring (assuming he opts-out), Young, Zeller and a late first (plus 2nds) is an absolute coup even for a slumping center. I'd throw that same package at BKN for Lopez, at Denver for McGee and at MIL for Sanders. Any takers on that package for a legit center is a good gamble.

For the record I don't even like Roy Hibbert. I just think he's worth more than some late picks and Jeff Green.
Jeff Green earns a fair contract for doing everything above average. Hibberts single skill is rim protection, and he is set to earn 15 million.

The common objection to acquiring Hibbert is his lack of rebounding for someone his size. It's true, he doesn't grab as many rebounds as you'd expect from someone his size and length, especially when you see how good his timing and positioning is as a rim protector.
 So I'll try and explain why his rebounding numbers aren't as high as you'd expect and hopefully make you appreciate the strategy behind the Pacers as the 8th best rebounding team whilst being the best defensive team in the NBA.
 So basically, the way teams guarded Hibbert has changed because of his ability to protect the basket and cause so many problems to those attempting to go into the paint. We've seen the nightmare he can be to Wade and Lebron and how close he came to single handedly taking the Pacers to the finals with his rim protection in the playoffs.
 This adjustment by other teams is what I, and many other observers believe has affected his rebounding numbers more than anything. To try and explain this isn't the easiest. But if I may, and if you care:

1) Hibbert has never been a natural rebounder. He's not an athlete by any means. Because of this, Frank Vogel has developed Hibbert to become the big man that looks for an opponent to box out, rather than go for the ball directly as athletic rebounders often do. David West has become similar in his old age- he's still got beastly strength, but his athleticism has been poor after the knee injury.
  This is part of the Pacers strategy in part, which attempts to completely deny the big men on the opposing team from rebounding, with excellent boxing out and basket denial ability- similarly to Perkins and Garnett. The Pacers take it to another level though, and rather than box out the man first and then go for the ball, Hibbert's goal is to basically deny the opponent getting the ball, and get back into position to protect the basket.
 The result is strong rebounding numbers from your guards and wing players, and incredible rim protection percentages from Hibbert.
 Why do the Pacers do this? One reason is the benefit of this is quick transition from defense to offense, but it also means that they have a 3 players vs 2 players situations around the basket,  and with Roy's rim protection and Lance Stephenson's aggressive moves in and around the basket (like Rondo, Lance's rebounding numbers are great), it's incredibly effective when you have a great boxing out tandem and quick, strong guards.
 It's the help from Garnett/Perkins and Hibbert/West respectively that tends to get overlooked. Basically the idea is to make the opposing bigs face a huge amount of contested rebounds on each possession and limit second chance shot opportunities.
  In fact you'll find that most of the great front court defenses in the NBA have carried big men that give their opponents complete nightmares on the offensive glass.
 Looking at Hibbert's numbers you'll notice that he averaged 9 rebounds per game in 2012. He was also the Miami Heat's worst nightmare. That season Lance averaged 3.3 rebounds.
 When teams started drawing Hibbert away from the basket, it increased this boxing out effect even more because although Hibbert wasn't going for rebounds, he was contesting his opponents attempt at a rebound and this became easier to do when your opponent is 10-15 feet away from the basket and you have Hibberts reach and torso length. Lance ( and coach Vogel) then swooped in and went from a 3.3 rebounder to a 5.7 rebounder in one season.
 The advantage the 2008-mid 2010 Celtics had was that KG was quick enough to help Perkins from the weakside and get back in position when being taken away from the basket.
 The Pacers don't have that exact luxury, but Hibberts recovery ability for second shot attempts shines the most.

I hope this makes sense. Hibbert may not get 12 rebounds a game, but he's preventing 2nd shot attempts by both boxing out and ensuring that any ball that Lance or George or West don't manage to grab isn't being put back up quickly for a high percentage shot.
 Something that destroyed the Celtics last year and will destroy us again this year until we get Sullinger and Rondo a true rim protector and rebound contestor.


The full top 10 when it comes to contested rebounding % is the following:

1) Robin Lopez: 51%

2) Enes Kanter: 50%

3) Zaza Pachulia: 47.6%

4) Nikola Pekovic: 47.5%

5) Roy Hibbert: 47.4%

6) Andre Drummond: 45.8%

7) Jared Sullinger: 45.8%

8) Amir Johnson: 45.5%

9) Greg Monroe: 44.2%

10) Serge Ibaka: 44%

Doesn't take a genius to work out which players are defensive contesters and which players are being contested :) It's almost like 5 'go for the ball' type rebounders vs 5 'go for the man' type rebounders. Hibberts basically the 4th most effective 'man' rebounders in the NBA. Sullinger is special because he does both and he's 6th on the list.

Now imagine putting Hibbert next to Jarred Sullinger and how much of a nightmare teams would have scoring against us in the paint, and getting an offensive rebound and second shot attempt. It would be so fun to watch.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 11:17:28 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline gpap

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If anyone were to say no to this, it would probably be Indiana, NOT Boston.

Offline Geo123

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Green bogans and zeller with the Philly or clips pick. Saves Indy some $ and better balances out their roster.

I still think there's a trade to be done where the base of the deal is Bledsoe goes to Indy. Hibbert to Boston. Hill and other assets to Phoenix. George hill would fit perfectly in Phoenix system with that guard rotation of dragic and Thomas.

Maybe Bledsoe (sign and trade) and zeller to Indy.
Hibbert to Boston.
Green and hill to Phoenix.

In my mind no way the Suns do that deal.  Hill is a backup PG making 8 million per year and Green is owed 9 million per this year and maybe next.   Why not just pay Bledsoe 15 million per (which he would probably sign for). 

Offline D.o.s.

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::) Do people actually watch games? Hibbert is way overrated. There are a few games in the playoffs where he disappeared completely. We're talking about a dude who averaged 9 points 5 rebounds in the playoffs last year. A 7'2 guy who can't rebound or run the floor, making 15 mil per year, and you want to trade 5 players for him? The ideas people come up with are mind boggling.

One would assume that the people actually watching the games would see the kind of defensive impact on the floor, and wouldn't use 'a few games in the playoffs' as a deciding sample size.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline saltlover

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This seems substantially too much to give up for a player who can opt out next year and isn't a superstar.  If he doesn't opt out, it means he's probably been disappointing.

I also don't like trading Jeff Green if we get Hibbert.  The point of getting Hibbert would theoretically be to compete now.  Jeff Green may not be the best small forward ever, but he's definitely the best one on our roster.  We'd be giving up way too much in young talent and future picks to also downgrade a pretty critical roster spot.  Furthermore, I've always liked the concept of reuniting Green and Hibbert.  They're still pretty close after their days at Georgetown.  Perhaps playing together could give each of them a little more spark.

I'm a relative Wallace apologist (he's certainly overpaid but I think he's useful).  But if you're going to trade Zeller, Young, and multiple picks for perhaps only one year of Hibbert, or two years of overpaid no good Hibbert, Wallace is the fairer price.

Offline Fafnir

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::) Do people actually watch games? Hibbert is way overrated. There are a few games in the playoffs where he disappeared completely. We're talking about a dude who averaged 9 points 5 rebounds in the playoffs last year. A 7'2 guy who can't rebound or run the floor, making 15 mil per year, and you want to trade 5 players for him? The ideas people come up with are mind boggling.

One would assume that the people actually watching the games would see the kind of defensive impact on the floor, and wouldn't use 'a few games in the playoffs' as a deciding sample size.
My issue with taking a chance on Hibbert is that he had basically a full half season and most of the playoffs of playing pretty badly for an all-star caliber center.

That's an awfully long bad slump, one which wasn't correlated with an injury like his terrible shooting to start last year.

Offline YoungOne87

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get either green or young out of that deal and I'm in.

Offline D.o.s.

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::) Do people actually watch games? Hibbert is way overrated. There are a few games in the playoffs where he disappeared completely. We're talking about a dude who averaged 9 points 5 rebounds in the playoffs last year. A 7'2 guy who can't rebound or run the floor, making 15 mil per year, and you want to trade 5 players for him? The ideas people come up with are mind boggling.

One would assume that the people actually watching the games would see the kind of defensive impact on the floor, and wouldn't use 'a few games in the playoffs' as a deciding sample size.
My issue with taking a chance on Hibbert is that he had basically a full half season and most of the playoffs of playing pretty badly for an all-star caliber center.

That's an awfully long bad slump, one which wasn't correlated with an injury like his terrible shooting to start last year.

I would agree if the players and pieces we'd be sending out weren't so eminently replaceable, save Green.
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Offline Vox_Populi

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Comparing Hibbert this past season in the playoffs to the previous two seasons makes it look like it is possible that there is an anomalous reason such as a hidden injury or personal issues that made Hibbert underperform this year.  Determining whether Hibbert is worth trading for might require access to resources that posters on a fan forum usually don't have access to.
Yeah, apparently he's been seeing a sports psychologist since 2008 and there was an article of him going to one during a slump in 2011. I don't know how commom that is in general, but in Hibbert’s case, it seems like he goes through periods of extremely low confidence.