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who do want as the Celts pg for the long term?

Smart
Rondo

Author Topic: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?  (Read 20529 times)

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Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2014, 05:00:23 PM »

Offline vinnie

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2014, 05:10:34 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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I really don't think the issue is about whether or not you think Rondo is better than Smart right now. It's about whether or not Rondo is worth re-signing after the season and committing a major portion of cap space to a player that we have no current prospects to add to in order to make the team a contender.

  It may or may not be true that there are no current prospects to add to Rondo, but that doesn't mean there won't be going forward. If a player becomes available at a later date and you've already flipped Rondo for future assets then you won't be able to acquire that available player and team him up with Rondo. The team has different options right now, you're giving up that flexibility needlessly.

Doesn't mean that there will be either within the time that we will need to make a decision on keeping Rondo longterm or not either. I mean, we can play this both ways all day. I totally get the arguments for having a rookie earn his time. Makes complete sense to me and if contracts and all were equal I'd agree with letting the kid earn the time first. In this particular instance though I just haven't heard a good enough argument for extending Rondo after this year regardless of cost for the purposes of simply extending him in case an imaginary established star comes along.

Plus I believe Danny and Stevens drafted this kid for a reason. I think they see him as a future leader of this team. And I trust now more than ever that Stevens can groom this kid into a great leader. That gives me the confidence to deal Rondo even though Smart hasn't established himself yet. If you want to have an established vet PG to back him up, great. But I think the kid is the goods and I think Danny and Brad think so too.
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Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2014, 05:17:59 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I really don't think the issue is about whether or not you think Rondo is better than Smart right now. It's about whether or not Rondo is worth re-signing after the season and committing a major portion of cap space to a player that we have no current prospects to add to in order to make the team a contender.

  It may or may not be true that there are no current prospects to add to Rondo, but that doesn't mean there won't be going forward. If a player becomes available at a later date and you've already flipped Rondo for future assets then you won't be able to acquire that available player and team him up with Rondo. The team has different options right now, you're giving up that flexibility needlessly.

Doesn't mean that there will be either within the time that we will need to make a decision on keeping Rondo longterm or not either.

  Obviously. That's why it makes sense to wait and see how things unfold. It's pretty foolish not to.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2014, 06:48:16 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2014, 06:58:32 PM »

fitzhickey

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2014, 07:14:00 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2014, 07:42:59 PM »

Online knuckleballer

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens

Very true.  After Bradley's rookie season, I thought he would be out of the league in a couple of years.
I think people forget that Olynyk was a late bloomer who redshirted his Junior season and remade his body and game.  I fully expect him to make significant strides.  However, I do think defense will always be a problem for him.  If you bring him off the bench while managing his matchups, I think he will be pretty valuable.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2014, 07:47:54 PM »

fitzhickey

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens
Yeah I wasn't arguing that they were busts or anything. Just that pointing out he made that team isn't really going to prove much for some people.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2014, 08:06:25 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens

Very true.  After Bradley's rookie season, I thought he would be out of the league in a couple of years.
I think people forget that Olynyk was a late bloomer who redshirted his Junior season and remade his body and game.  I fully expect him to make significant strides.  However, I do think defense will always be a problem for him.  If you bring him off the bench while managing his matchups, I think he will be pretty valuable.

If Rondo was gone and Smart got to start at the PG position for this upcoming season, i would'nt be surprised if he were a finalist for the ROY award.  I'm big on Smart. His effort level alone won't let me down

Smart's physical style of defense (without fouling) is going to make alot of guys annoyed/mad. Which is a good thing.  He also is known to up his play when things get stressful/vs better competition

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2014, 08:30:20 PM »

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If Rondo was gone and Smart got to start at the PG position for this upcoming season, i would'nt be surprised if he were a finalist for the ROY award.  I'm big on Smart.
Agreed - I think Smart would be #2 behind Jabari Parker for ROY if he were on a team where he was the starting PG. I think Smart is the most NBA ready player in draft. Jabari gets ROY due to higher PPG numbers but I think Smart would help his team more.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2014, 09:13:45 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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I really don't think the issue is about whether or not you think Rondo is better than Smart right now. It's about whether or not Rondo is worth re-signing after the season and committing a major portion of cap space to a player that we have no current prospects to add to in order to make the team a contender.

  It may or may not be true that there are no current prospects to add to Rondo, but that doesn't mean there won't be going forward. If a player becomes available at a later date and you've already flipped Rondo for future assets then you won't be able to acquire that available player and team him up with Rondo. The team has different options right now, you're giving up that flexibility needlessly.

Doesn't mean that there will be either within the time that we will need to make a decision on keeping Rondo longterm or not either.

  Obviously. That's why it makes sense to wait and see how things unfold. It's pretty foolish not to.

I don't disagree with taking the time to see what happens but til when are we talking? Half a year.? The season? Re-signing Rondo and just waiting? There's a fine line between being patient and being passive. I just don't want us to cross that line. If you can't make assumptions either way, at some point you WILL have to make your own decision based on the information you have available.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #101 on: August 20, 2014, 10:14:04 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens

Very true.  After Bradley's rookie season, I thought he would be out of the league in a couple of years.
I think people forget that Olynyk was a late bloomer who redshirted his Junior season and remade his body and game.  I fully expect him to make significant strides.  However, I do think defense will always be a problem for him.  If you bring him off the bench while managing his matchups, I think he will be pretty valuable.

If Rondo was gone and Smart got to start at the PG position for this upcoming season, i would'nt be surprised if he were a finalist for the ROY award.  I'm big on Smart. His effort level alone won't let me down

Smart's physical style of defense (without fouling) is going to make alot of guys annoyed/mad. Which is a good thing.  He also is known to up his play when things get stressful/vs better competition

I think this is where I'm coming from too. It's not even that I think Rondo isn't good enough anymore. I just believe that this kid is going to be special. A lot of it is his skill. A lot of it is his work ethic. And a ton of it is his mental makeup and here are few cases where I'm sold so quickly. This is one of them. No doubt he will make his mistakes. There will be a learning curve. And I'd be just fine with a veteran PG backing him up like a Keyon Dooling-type. But I think this kid is the goods right now and from a leadership standpoint, from an ability to rally teammates and psychologically get them to boost their own game, he is already ahead of Rondo. Rondo has him beat right now in plenty of skill stuff PG-wise but Smart is just magnetic personality wise and his attitude I want leading this team in the future.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2014, 01:27:05 AM »

Offline LB3533

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Rondo is only 28.

Rondo in what people consider a bad season while coming back from major knee surgery still had 12PPG and 10 APG and 1.4 SPG. That's 9.8 APG on a team devoid of great shooters.

I have all the confidence in the world that Rondo will return to his 14/11/5 with 2 steals self.

I have no such confidence that Smart will ever put up numbers like. I really hope he can and I actually project him to be a 18PPG, 8 APG, 5 RPG, 2 SPG type player in a few years. But I need to see him play and prove he can do that before deciding he can replace a player of Rondo's caliber.

I agree, I do too, have full confidence.

Rondo's production

13-14: SPLITS

Pre-AS    =  9.8/4.8/7.1       (10g at 27.2 MPG)
Post- AS =  12.6/5.8/11.2   (20g at 36.3 MPG)

*Note: Shooting efficiency seemed to decline after AS break, ironically FT% improved.

Monthly:

JAN:    6.7/3.8/5.7
FEB:   15.3/5.1/9.9
MAR:  11.4/5.6/11.1
APR:   12.8/8.3/12.0

**Note: Stats suggest Rondo's production grew stronger as the season prolonged. (Despite Rondo playing more minutes per game each month and playing more games, in total, after the AS break. (See above AS break Splits)

-If Rondo can improve his production while enduring more games played at a higher playing time rate....this gives more evidence that Rondo was positively recovering, healthwise.

12-13: SPLITS

38g all Pre-AS at 37.4 MPG = 13.7/5.6/11.1

OCT: 20/7/13 (1 game)
NOV: 12.4/4.4/12.9
DEC: 13.3/5.7/10.1
JAN: 15.1/6.7/9.8

* Note - Games played by month along with MPG stayed roughly the same (36-38 MPG), no significant decline. Efficiency stats also were roughly the same each month, with the exception of maybe a slight decline in Rondo's last month of JAN.
 
This suggests that even an injured Rondo was still able to perform productively without terribly giving up efficiency!

This evidence suggests to me that injury did not have a greater effect on Rondo's efficiency versus the caliber of teammates Rondo had to play alongside. In laymen's terms, it is easier for a player to play efficiently when that player has better caliber teammates to play alongside.

11-12: SPLITS

Pre-AS:  14.8/4.9/9.5
Post:      9.8/4.8/13.2

Not going to post the monthly breakdown, just mention that each month shows the trend of increasing AST per game, with a decline in scoring + shooting efficiency.

*Note: Rondo's scoring production & shooting efficiency declined after the AS break. Rondo was aware of this by reducing FGAs from nearly 13 pre-AS down to 10 post AS. Rondo's FTA attempts per game also declined, nearly 5 FTA pre-AS versus 2.3 FTA post-AS. This is the type of recognition smart players like Rondo possess. Rondo was aware of this efficiency decline so he reigned in his shot attempts and increased his passing (notice the assists per game increase post-AS).

Celtic coaching staff also seemed to be aware of this too and reduced Rondo's USG% rating from 23.4 (pre-AS) to 18.9 (post-AS). I truly feel, that Rondo played a bigger role in this decline though.

An important point to emphasize is that Rondo had better options to pass the ball to back then, compare to his options last year (13-14) and the now/foreseeable future. This could explain last year's (inaccurate) impression that Rondo would pound the ball for 80-90% of the shot clock or whatever it was, but if Rondo held on to the ball and pounded the ball into the ground every game, how did he manage to improve his AST per game post-AS & each subsequent month?

If Rondo was voluntarily pounding the ball, I have a firm feeling that it was by Rondo's own basketball processing.....that he saw the defense and how they were playing us. And Rondo saw how his own teammates were running the offensive plays or not running the offensive plays as well as Stevens had drawn up?

Let's keep Rondo, the other young players will need to wait their turn, just as Rondo waited.

It's not that easy to throw the young players to the wolves, so to say. They learn bad habbits or a sense of entitlement.

I saw Toine an Pierce play well as young players, but it was tough for both of them to break the "me me me" - "superstar" attitude and to break bad habbits, chucking too many 3's or difficult long range fadeaways (neither of whom were Larry Bird for Heaven's sake).

I don't want to instill this type of mentality to our young guys. Having a Captain in Rondo's caliber of a player will help them, will help us.

Did Danny hire Stevens to be the "fall guy" like John Carroll (remember him?). I don't believe so.

Give Stevens a legit hand to implement with. Not saying Danny has to give Stevens "pocket Aces" (trading for Ray Ray, Big Ticket), but I mean at least allow Stevens the continued option to play a "King/Ten" or "Queen/Jack" starting hand.

Keep Rondo....allow more time for Sully, Oly & even Jeff Green to be more familiar with playing together & playing for Stevens.

Every recent season just seems like a "do over year" or a restart/reset year. There just hasn't been any sembelence of positive fruitfull continuity.

The only continuity we've experienced is consistent shakeups & injuries. Sully's back, Green's heart, Rondo's knee, Doc's departure, Steven's arrival, former Superstars as teammates & now as opponents.

Keep Rondo.


Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2014, 06:56:07 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens

Very true.  After Bradley's rookie season, I thought he would be out of the league in a couple of years.
I think people forget that Olynyk was a late bloomer who redshirted his Junior season and remade his body and game.  I fully expect him to make significant strides.  However, I do think defense will always be a problem for him.  If you bring him off the bench while managing his matchups, I think he will be pretty valuable.

If Rondo was gone and Smart got to start at the PG position for this upcoming season, i would'nt be surprised if he were a finalist for the ROY award.  I'm big on Smart. His effort level alone won't let me down

Smart's physical style of defense (without fouling) is going to make alot of guys annoyed/mad. Which is a good thing.  He also is known to up his play when things get stressful/vs better competition

I think this is where I'm coming from too. It's not even that I think Rondo isn't good enough anymore. I just believe that this kid is going to be special. A lot of it is his skill. A lot of it is his work ethic. And a ton of it is his mental makeup and here are few cases where I'm sold so quickly. This is one of them. No doubt he will make his mistakes. There will be a learning curve. And I'd be just fine with a veteran PG backing him up like a Keyon Dooling-type. But I think this kid is the goods right now and from a leadership standpoint, from an ability to rally teammates and psychologically get them to boost their own game, he is already ahead of Rondo. Rondo has him beat right now in plenty of skill stuff PG-wise but Smart is just magnetic personality wise and his attitude I want leading this team in the future.
I wanted Marcus Smart, he has the chance to be very special. There are a lot of people that are very high on Trey Burke as a future start pg after his season last year....but I know that Smart is better than Burke and thats a fact.

Re: who do want as the Celts pg for the long term? Smart or Rondo?
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2014, 08:13:54 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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After reading through this thread, while this is slightly off topic, I am scratching my head and wondering what Kelly Olynyk has done to solidify himself as a key player on this team moving forward. He had some great games late in the year against some really bad teams.  Yay. I hope the guy has a long career here, but he has proven ZERO.

really?? Did you not watch him progress in the 2nd half?    He also did well vs bad and some good teams/difficult matchups.

He also made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team.  Not like winning the mvp or anything but its a nice start for a rookie.
I don't think KO has proved much, but he made the All-rookie second team in one of the weakest drafts in recent history.

Overall weak but it doesn't mean every player is considered to be coming off the bench for life

KO should of gone much higher. Same goes for Mason Plumlee . You also need to give these guys one more year. Not every rookie kills it in their 1st year. It's not the norm that it happens

Very true.  After Bradley's rookie season, I thought he would be out of the league in a couple of years.
I think people forget that Olynyk was a late bloomer who redshirted his Junior season and remade his body and game.  I fully expect him to make significant strides.  However, I do think defense will always be a problem for him.  If you bring him off the bench while managing his matchups, I think he will be pretty valuable.

If Rondo was gone and Smart got to start at the PG position for this upcoming season, i would'nt be surprised if he were a finalist for the ROY award.  I'm big on Smart. His effort level alone won't let me down

Smart's physical style of defense (without fouling) is going to make alot of guys annoyed/mad. Which is a good thing.  He also is known to up his play when things get stressful/vs better competition

I think this is where I'm coming from too. It's not even that I think Rondo isn't good enough anymore. I just believe that this kid is going to be special. A lot of it is his skill. A lot of it is his work ethic. And a ton of it is his mental makeup and here are few cases where I'm sold so quickly. This is one of them. No doubt he will make his mistakes. There will be a learning curve. And I'd be just fine with a veteran PG backing him up like a Keyon Dooling-type. But I think this kid is the goods right now and from a leadership standpoint, from an ability to rally teammates and psychologically get them to boost their own game, he is already ahead of Rondo. Rondo has him beat right now in plenty of skill stuff PG-wise but Smart is just magnetic personality wise and his attitude I want leading this team in the future.

I agree.  Has a captain type personality