Author Topic: In Hindsight, Could Re-Signing James Posey Have Ultimately Yielded David West?  (Read 14902 times)

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Offline mgent

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I disagree that Posey was a better player than O'Neal at that point in time.  JO was still a decent post defender, decent shot-blocker, decent rim protector, above average defender overall.  He was also an average finisher, knew when to keep the ball moving, and probably pretty average among Centers from 10-12 feet.

Posey, on the other hand, was hardly average at anything by that point.  JO might not have been able to stay on the court, but Posey couldn't even get on it.
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Offline nickagneta

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Danny Ainge made the right decision not to give Posey the contract he signed in New Orleans. It was fairly common knowledge that Ainge felt that is Posey wanted a 2 year deal he would have been in Boston and might even have been here if he wanted a 3 year deal. But 4 years at that money for a declining older player was too much.

Turns out Ainge was right.

In a little over a year Posey was awful. Just awful due to the decline of his game. He would have made no difference to titles in 2009 because KG got hurt. Thereafter, Posey was no good and wouldn't have helped in 2010 any more than Rasheed Wallace did. Perk's injury cost the C's in 2010 and by the time the playoffs rolled around that year, Posey was already playing poorly. So his presence in 2010 would have made no difference.

After 2008-09 Posey wasn't relevant as a difference making player and paying him 3 more years at some $20 million would have been nuts.

Offline GreenWarrior

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Wasn't West choosing Indiana pre Center-KG? So West turned down a bench role for a starting role? I bet he feels ok about that decision now, but I'm sure he was thinking hard about it during the 2012 ECF.

By his account, he chose Indiana because he thought that they would have a longer (as in amount of time) shot at title contention than Boston.

...and now he's worried if they'll even make the playoffs. my heart goes out to players that have this train of thought. he was thinking like a fan in this situation...started thinking "dynasty" instead of thinking realistically and concerning himself with just getting 1. when realistically he probably could've won 2 rings by now.

have no sympathy for that dude. 


Offline celts10

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Wasn't West choosing Indiana pre Center-KG?

Yes. Why couldn't they have switched KG to Center right from those very talks to guarantee West a starting spot at the 4? I mean KG ended up playing center for a large portion of that year anyway and perhaps if West knew just how effective KG was at it, he probably would have weighed Boston a lot more favorably.

Online RJ87

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Wasn't West choosing Indiana pre Center-KG? So West turned down a bench role for a starting role? I bet he feels ok about that decision now, but I'm sure he was thinking hard about it during the 2012 ECF.

By his account, he chose Indiana because he thought that they would have a longer (as in amount of time) shot at title contention than Boston.

...and now he's worried if they'll even make the playoffs. my heart goes out to players that have this train of thought. he was thinking like a fan in this situation...started thinking "dynasty" instead of thinking realistically and concerning himself with just getting 1. when realistically he probably could've won 2 rings by now.

have no sympathy for that dude.

If it wasn't the Celtics that he left at the alter, you'd probably feel differently. He made the right decision at the time for him. The C's - even with him - weren't favorites, KG and Pierce weren't getting any younger. Indy had a longer window to contend. I would've likely chosen Indy if in a similar situation.

It's easier to say sitting here now, know the run the C's would go on in the playoffs that year. But no one could've predicted that. Just like no one could've predicted PG breaking his leg this summer and torpedoing any chance Indy had at immediate contention.
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Offline D.o.s.

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Wasn't West choosing Indiana pre Center-KG? So West turned down a bench role for a starting role? I bet he feels ok about that decision now, but I'm sure he was thinking hard about it during the 2012 ECF.

By his account, he chose Indiana because he thought that they would have a longer (as in amount of time) shot at title contention than Boston.

...and now he's worried if they'll even make the playoffs. my heart goes out to players that have this train of thought. he was thinking like a fan in this situation...started thinking "dynasty" instead of thinking realistically and concerning himself with just getting 1. when realistically he probably could've won 2 rings by now.

have no sympathy for that dude.

I don't think he has any sympathy for himself, either. West made the right choice -- KG, Pierce, and Ray were all headed out anyway, and he would have been left holding the door open for them as they left.
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Offline GreenWarrior

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Wasn't West choosing Indiana pre Center-KG? So West turned down a bench role for a starting role? I bet he feels ok about that decision now, but I'm sure he was thinking hard about it during the 2012 ECF.

By his account, he chose Indiana because he thought that they would have a longer (as in amount of time) shot at title contention than Boston.

...and now he's worried if they'll even make the playoffs. my heart goes out to players that have this train of thought. he was thinking like a fan in this situation...started thinking "dynasty" instead of thinking realistically and concerning himself with just getting 1. when realistically he probably could've won 2 rings by now.

have no sympathy for that dude.

If it wasn't the Celtics that he left at the alter, you'd probably feel differently.

possibly, i'm not denying my pov is definitely as a burnt C's fan.

He made the right decision at the time for him. The C's - even with him - weren't favorites, KG and Pierce weren't getting any younger. Indy had a longer window to contend. I would've likely chosen Indy if in a similar situation.

It's easier to say sitting here now, know the run the C's would go on in the playoffs that year. But no one could've predicted that. Just like no one could've predicted PG breaking his leg this summer and torpedoing any chance Indy had at immediate contention.

take "longer contention window", "age", "hindsight" and all of that out of the picture it's a fact that at the time the C's were still more of a final 4 team than Indy. West was thinking about the other players situation on this team(Pierce & KG's age, Allen staying? leaving? age) while completely ignoring what he might be able to bring to the team.

and again that "longer contention window" is a classic mistake on his part. he completely overlooked the thought that he could actually win a championship coming here, with an outside chance of maybe winning 2. winning 1 was completely realistic. but he made that mistake of "I can maybe win more". which was completely unrealistic to think Indy would win multiple championships.

and for him to worry about what the team would do if/when Pierce & KG leave was another oversight. if he got maybe 1 - 2 championships out of it? who cares?

Online RJ87

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take "longer contention window", "age", "hindsight" and all of that out of the picture it's a fact that at the time the C's were still more of a final 4 team than Indy. West was thinking about the other players situation on this team(Pierce & KG's age, Allen staying? leaving? age) while completely ignoring what he might be able to bring to the team.

Again, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. We were 39–27 (.591) during the regular season. We had a puncher's when the season started and finished as the 4-seed (Indy finished as the 3-seed that year), but I don't think we were considered a strong threat to get to the conference finals. Everyone had Miami and Chicago earmarked for the ECF. Had DRose not tore his ACL in Round 1, we likely don't get as far as we did.

So yes, "hindsight" is a huge factor here.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:30:22 PM by RJ87 »
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Offline D.o.s.

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He was trying to stay with the team that would be good longer. He guessed (correctly) that it would be Indiana. Could he have tipped the scales for us in a series? Very possibly, but I think most athletes would rather spend their careers playing for good teams than spend the majority of it on also-rans with one ring sprinkled in there.
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Online freshinthehouse

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Danny Ainge made the right decision not to give Posey the contract he signed in New Orleans. It was fairly common knowledge that Ainge felt that is Posey wanted a 2 year deal he would have been in Boston and might even have been here if he wanted a 3 year deal. But 4 years at that money for a declining older player was too much.

Turns out Ainge was right.

In a little over a year Posey was awful. Just awful due to the decline of his game. He would have made no difference to titles in 2009 because KG got hurt. Thereafter, Posey was no good and wouldn't have helped in 2010 any more than Rasheed Wallace did. Perk's injury cost the C's in 2010 and by the time the playoffs rolled around that year, Posey was already playing poorly. So his presence in 2010 would have made no difference.

After 2008-09 Posey wasn't relevant as a difference making player and paying him 3 more years at some $20 million would have been nuts.


Offline Beat LA

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i'll just say this. back then I felt strongly that it was a no brainer to sign posey over house. house imo was a luxury, where as posey was a necessity. posey gave us depth, it's rare that you can have 1 player take the role of 3 players. I feel posey was a bargain at the price he was asking.

i'd still sign him today over house if I had to do it all over again. we could have used the depth he gave us.
I'm with you on this one. Always loved Posey's defense as well. Could defend 3-4 positions. Shoot the 3, smart player. House was a hard worker, and mediocre pg at best, but ultimately ONLY known for his 3 in my honest opinion. He hustles a lot, but if I have to choose, I will choose Posey 10/10 times

I'd also choose a healthy Leon Powe over Big Baby Davis 10/10 as well

I completely agree with both of you.  Yeah, I liked Eddie House a lot, but at the same time, his weaknesses were rather glaring - he was too small to defend sgs, yet not quick enough to guard pgs, and he could pass a little, but couldn't handle the ball to save his life.  Yikes :o  Still, when he got it going, which was often, he would flat out torch the opposition, but that is something that could have been more easily replaced, imo.

As for Posey, I really don't need to say anything more.  His leadership, defense, versatility (on both ends), hustle (I loved how he'd dive on the floor and out of bounds.  The guy was like a walking TP ;D ), willingness to do the dirty work (along with Leon), and ability to make huge shots are not skills that you can ever replace.  He was our Robert Horry, our Michael Cooper, our glue guy.  Thanks Danny (sarcasm)!

For example, let's compare him to Ainge's replacement for Posey - Marquis Daniels.  'Quis was great when he was here.  He was a great defender, versatile like Posey on both ends, another ball handler, passer, but he couldn't shoot at all, although his post game was great imo.  The other thing that really hurt us was the fact that he was injury prone, but when he could play, he was great. 

Here's what I would have done in the 08 offseason, starting with the draft - 1).  select Deandre Jordan.  2).  Sign James Posey, who should have been our biggest priority.  Ugh.  3).  This is where I'm going rogue lol.  Okay, you know how Pierce and KG talked to PJ Brown during All Star weekend and convinced him to come out of retirement?  Why not also do the same for Stephon Marbury, who had an ETO?  That's tampering, though, right?  Eh, the Knicks were trying to rid themselves of him anyway in their bid to clear all of that cap room for Lebron, so why not help them and ourselves in one move - Marbury opts out (yeah, I know.  He likely wouldn't walk away from all of that cash, but it's worth a shot to me, anyway.), and we sign and trade Eddie House and Scal to the Knicks.  If not House, then just Scalabrine.  Why?  Because his contract expired after the 09-10 season.  Checkmate ;D  In the likely event that that never happens, however, why not sign and trade Eddie House to the Magic for Keyon Dooling, who was signed and traded to the Nets anyway.  Keyon was an excellent defender with good size, and would have, in Marbury's absence (sorry, I just really wanted that guy on our bench behind Rondo and Ray.  That would have been the best 3 guard rotation since the bad boys, imo.), been the perfect backup point guard for Rondo, which was another thing Ainge never seemed to find after 08.  Like Posey, Dooling's locker room presence and leadership would have been great to have, and even though he sucked during the regular season when he was here, Keyon really did make some big shots and play excellent defense in that run to the ECF, especially in Bradley's absence.  4).  Continuing with going rogue ;) here's one out of nowhere - with Dooling and Posey already in tow, we'd still need another wing.  Someone who can shoot, defend, play a couple of positions, etc., and that guy is Alan Anderson.  I'd never even heard of him prior to this past year, but he was big for the Nets off their bench.  The guy is like Marquis Daniels with a jump shot, and he's not injury prone.  He can post up, shoot, pass, take it to the basket, finish with either hand, and create his own shot.  What's not to like?  5).  Birdman.  Need I say more?  6).  Jannero Pargo, anyone, as insurance?  He can defend, shoot, handle, and, like House, fill it up in a hurry, even though he's not really a point guard.  I'd also have looked into Bonzi Wells.

Thoughts?  I know, I know - Scal was untouchable (sarcasm) ;D  I also greatly preferred Leon over Baby, but I also think that Brandon Bass would have been a way better player for us had we signed him after 2009 and traded Davis and Perk for something (preferably a draft pick, but I don't think that anyone would have been that dumb lol.).  Their respective values were never higher than after the 2009 playoffs, and we might have been able to get something great for our future, like the 2010 Knicks pick that Utah had.  I know that they already had Millsap, but they desperately needed a great post defender to counter Bynum and Gasol.  Plus, Boozer was going to become a free agent, so they needed to win that year.  Put Perk next to Boozer and have Okur coming off the bench.  Now there's a tough out for the Lakers, imo.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:20:13 PM by Beat LA »

Offline BballTim

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i'll just say this. back then I felt strongly that it was a no brainer to sign posey over house. house imo was a luxury, where as posey was a necessity. posey gave us depth, it's rare that you can have 1 player take the role of 3 players. I feel posey was a bargain at the price he was asking.

i'd still sign him today over house if I had to do it all over again. we could have used the depth he gave us.

  His play deteriorated fairly quickly after he made that deal. Not signing him for 4 years was the right move.

Offline pearljammer10

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Danny Ainge made the right decision not to give Posey the contract he signed in New Orleans. It was fairly common knowledge that Ainge felt that is Posey wanted a 2 year deal he would have been in Boston and might even have been here if he wanted a 3 year deal. But 4 years at that money for a declining older player was too much.

Turns out Ainge was right.

In a little over a year Posey was awful. Just awful due to the decline of his game. He would have made no difference to titles in 2009 because KG got hurt. Thereafter, Posey was no good and wouldn't have helped in 2010 any more than Rasheed Wallace did. Perk's injury cost the C's in 2010 and by the time the playoffs rolled around that year, Posey was already playing poorly. So his presence in 2010 would have made no difference.

After 2008-09 Posey wasn't relevant as a difference making player and paying him 3 more years at some $20 million would have been nuts.



Yeah I'm surprised this didn't come up sooner in the thread. I would have loved to re-sign Posey... But not at the contract he recieved. Overall great move in the end by Danny.

Offline Beat LA

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Danny Ainge made the right decision not to give Posey the contract he signed in New Orleans. It was fairly common knowledge that Ainge felt that is Posey wanted a 2 year deal he would have been in Boston and might even have been here if he wanted a 3 year deal. But 4 years at that money for a declining older player was too much.

Turns out Ainge was right.

In a little over a year Posey was awful. Just awful due to the decline of his game. He would have made no difference to titles in 2009 because KG got hurt. Thereafter, Posey was no good and wouldn't have helped in 2010 any more than Rasheed Wallace did. Perk's injury cost the C's in 2010 and by the time the playoffs rolled around that year, Posey was already playing poorly. So his presence in 2010 would have made no difference.

After 2008-09 Posey wasn't relevant as a difference making player and paying him 3 more years at some $20 million would have been nuts.

Let me ask you this, then - when the team was assembled, Danny felt that we had a 3 year window.  If that's the case, why, when he originally signed Posey in 2007, didn't he give James a 3-year deal?  Ainge knew how valuable Posey was in the Heat's title run, so that just doesn't make sense to me to give a guy a two year deal with a player option for the second.

I also disagree that Posey deteriorated quickly as a player after he left Boston.  It wasn't him on the decline so much as it was New Orleans as a team.  Remember, when Posey signed with them, they were, kind of like the situation with West and the Pacers, considered to be the power of the future in the west, after losing to the Spurs in game 7 (at home, haha) in the second round in 2008.  Everyone expected them to take that next step in 08-09, but instead, they ran into the Chauncey Billups-led Nuggets, who annihilated the Hornets in 5 games, beating them by 58 POINTS IN NEW ORLEANS in game 4 :o .  Go back and look over the box scores - Posey did a pretty good to great job on Carmelo that year, just as he did to Lebron in 2008 for us.  He was hardly washed up.

After going 49-33 in 08-09, the Hornets went 37-45 in 09-10, largely because of Chris Paul's injury and the firing of Byron Scott after just 9 games that year, meaning that they had to learn a whole new everything on the fly, which has never been a recipe for success.  Posey also played, on average, 6 fewer minutes than he had in 08-09, so you have to factor that in to your assessment of his play. 

To your point about how he would have helped no more than Sheed in 2010, uh, Rasheed Wallace was huge in the playoffs that year.  We would not have beaten Cleveland or Orlando without him, so if Posey could have given us the same, I think we win it all.  Remember, too, that when we lost Powe and Posey, we lost two big game players, two scrappy players, two guys who did a lot of the necessary dirty work in our title year, and we never replaced that.  Even if Posey had declined as much as you said, he still could have guarded those 3/4 players in Rashard Lewis, Odom, and Jamison, in his sleep, and his rebounding would have been a big help against, well, everybody, lol.  I just think that you're grossly underestimating the effect that he could have had on that 2010 team. 

Plus, even if his contract was bad, it's not even close to Gerald Wallace's, and, like I said, could have been exchanged for David West in a sign and trade.  You do know that West originally only signed with the Pacers for 2 years and $20 million, right?  It's not like he said, "This is my last contract."  He kept his options open, and had he signed here, I don't think that Ray would have left, especially for Miami, because we would have beaten the Heat that year.  Our team might look very different right now.

Offline Beat LA

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Danny Ainge made the right decision not to give Posey the contract he signed in New Orleans. It was fairly common knowledge that Ainge felt that is Posey wanted a 2 year deal he would have been in Boston and might even have been here if he wanted a 3 year deal. But 4 years at that money for a declining older player was too much.

Turns out Ainge was right.

In a little over a year Posey was awful. Just awful due to the decline of his game. He would have made no difference to titles in 2009 because KG got hurt. Thereafter, Posey was no good and wouldn't have helped in 2010 any more than Rasheed Wallace did. Perk's injury cost the C's in 2010 and by the time the playoffs rolled around that year, Posey was already playing poorly. So his presence in 2010 would have made no difference.

After 2008-09 Posey wasn't relevant as a difference making player and paying him 3 more years at some $20 million would have been nuts.



Yeah I'm surprised this didn't come up sooner in the thread. I would have loved to re-sign Posey... But not at the contract he recieved. Overall great move in the end by Danny.

Who would you have replaced Posey with, then?