Author Topic: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.  (Read 40281 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #120 on: August 29, 2014, 04:43:42 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
Quote
The difference between Tim and I is that I want what's best for the Celtics. I want whatever makes us a championship contender and I want a championship before any player.
 Tim wants what's best for the Celtics as long as it involves keeping Rondo

Ben McLemore is not what is best for the Celtics.  NS is an unknown.   Rondo too has his flaws.  But Rondo right now, is worth more than these too.

Rondo is a better draw = more cashflow
Rondo is a better player

The only drawback is that he might leave us.   But I hope DA can do a sign and trade and do us solid if that happens.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #121 on: August 29, 2014, 05:01:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
There's little evidence to support the idea that Rondo is in his prime now, and at least one good argument that he's already peaked (courtesy of the Wages of Wins guys).
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Stumbling upon wins is also on google books, by the way.

  I actually like wages of wins to a certain extent, but it has the unmistakable "statistics measure everything important with complete accuracy" aroma to it. I'm well aware that players tend to have their best statistics in their early-mid 20s, I also realize that players tend to win more when they're older than that. They may contribute a little less on a minute-by minute basis, but they contribute more at key points when they're older, and do more things that don't show up directly on box scores. A current example is LeBron James. Many people noticed a meaningful difference in his game from 2012 going forward but you wouldn't really be able to point to a big jump in his stats. If you think that LeBron was at his best in 2009 or so then you wouldn't think Rondo's in his prime, if you prefer LeBron's play in 2013 or so you'd have a different opinion.

  But that's for a different thread.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #122 on: August 29, 2014, 07:23:33 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
There's little evidence to support the idea that Rondo is in his prime now, and at least one good argument that he's already peaked (courtesy of the Wages of Wins guys).
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Stumbling upon wins is also on google books, by the way.

  I actually like wages of wins to a certain extent, but it has the unmistakable "statistics measure everything important with complete accuracy" aroma to it. I'm well aware that players tend to have their best statistics in their early-mid 20s, I also realize that players tend to win more when they're older than that. They may contribute a little less on a minute-by minute basis, but they contribute more at key points when they're older, and do more things that don't show up directly on box scores. A current example is LeBron James. Many people noticed a meaningful difference in his game from 2012 going forward but you wouldn't really be able to point to a big jump in his stats. If you think that LeBron was at his best in 2009 or so then you wouldn't think Rondo's in his prime, if you prefer LeBron's play in 2013 or so you'd have a different opinion.

  But that's for a different thread.
You mean aside from the colossal jump in FG% that brought him to a Jordan-esque level of efficiency?

That's not to say I disagree with your overall point, I'm just not sure LeBron is the greatest example.  I'm not inclined to believe his maturity caused the jump in his game any where near as much as the leaps and bounds he made with his jumpshot and post game.  That year he finally bounced us out of the playoffs with all those ridiculous fade-away 3s was basically the turning point in his career.  LeBron was finally a good shooter.  Before that he was 33% from 3, since then he's been 39%.  Teams could no longer rely on the "load the paint" strategy.  Earlier years Pierce would even give LeBron "Rondo treatment" at the 3pt line and back off 5 feet daring him to shoot (many teams did).  Becoming a triple threat has made it much easier for him to get to the basket.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #123 on: August 29, 2014, 07:33:56 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
Quote
Becoming a triple threat has made it much easier for him to get to the basket.

Triple threat in basketball usually means, pass, shoot or dribble.  Hence, the triple threat position where one can do all three.  I have never heard of a triple threat as in reference to the shot itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGXmmqLTG88

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #124 on: August 29, 2014, 08:12:44 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
Well I thought it was rather common knowledge that LeBron could already drive and pass pretty well when he entered the league.

There's being in the triple threat position, and then there's being good in it (differing qualities, everyone striving to be Bird).
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #125 on: August 29, 2014, 08:24:03 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
There's little evidence to support the idea that Rondo is in his prime now, and at least one good argument that he's already peaked (courtesy of the Wages of Wins guys).
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Stumbling upon wins is also on google books, by the way.

  I actually like wages of wins to a certain extent, but it has the unmistakable "statistics measure everything important with complete accuracy" aroma to it. I'm well aware that players tend to have their best statistics in their early-mid 20s, I also realize that players tend to win more when they're older than that. They may contribute a little less on a minute-by minute basis, but they contribute more at key points when they're older, and do more things that don't show up directly on box scores. A current example is LeBron James. Many people noticed a meaningful difference in his game from 2012 going forward but you wouldn't really be able to point to a big jump in his stats. If you think that LeBron was at his best in 2009 or so then you wouldn't think Rondo's in his prime, if you prefer LeBron's play in 2013 or so you'd have a different opinion.

  But that's for a different thread.

I agree with the bolded, and actually if you dig a little deeper into that the statement isn't really about when they peak so much as it is about how hard players tend to fall off when they're on the wrong side of thirty and how fast.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #126 on: August 29, 2014, 08:41:44 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
There's little evidence to support the idea that Rondo is in his prime now, and at least one good argument that he's already peaked (courtesy of the Wages of Wins guys).
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Stumbling upon wins is also on google books, by the way.

  I actually like wages of wins to a certain extent, but it has the unmistakable "statistics measure everything important with complete accuracy" aroma to it. I'm well aware that players tend to have their best statistics in their early-mid 20s, I also realize that players tend to win more when they're older than that. They may contribute a little less on a minute-by minute basis, but they contribute more at key points when they're older, and do more things that don't show up directly on box scores. A current example is LeBron James. Many people noticed a meaningful difference in his game from 2012 going forward but you wouldn't really be able to point to a big jump in his stats. If you think that LeBron was at his best in 2009 or so then you wouldn't think Rondo's in his prime, if you prefer LeBron's play in 2013 or so you'd have a different opinion.

  But that's for a different thread.
You mean aside from the colossal jump in FG% that brought him to a Jordan-esque level of efficiency?


  His fg% is up, his points, rebounds, assists, FTA/game, WS and other stats are down. From wages of wins 2009 was his peak year in terms of WS/minute.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2014, 08:52:09 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
There's little evidence to support the idea that Rondo is in his prime now, and at least one good argument that he's already peaked (courtesy of the Wages of Wins guys).
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Stumbling upon wins is also on google books, by the way.

  I actually like wages of wins to a certain extent, but it has the unmistakable "statistics measure everything important with complete accuracy" aroma to it. I'm well aware that players tend to have their best statistics in their early-mid 20s, I also realize that players tend to win more when they're older than that. They may contribute a little less on a minute-by minute basis, but they contribute more at key points when they're older, and do more things that don't show up directly on box scores. A current example is LeBron James. Many people noticed a meaningful difference in his game from 2012 going forward but you wouldn't really be able to point to a big jump in his stats. If you think that LeBron was at his best in 2009 or so then you wouldn't think Rondo's in his prime, if you prefer LeBron's play in 2013 or so you'd have a different opinion.

  But that's for a different thread.

I agree with the bolded, and actually if you dig a little deeper into that the statement isn't really about when they peak so much as it is about how hard players tend to fall off when they're on the wrong side of thirty and how fast.

  You'd have to have a lot more specifics before you could come to any useful conclusions.

 

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2014, 09:33:12 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
The specifics are there, feel free to look them up. If you want to continue on vagaries about how Rondo's in his prime, with no real explanation behind it, then you shouldn't expect anything less than the equivalent.

Not that I particularly disagree with you, of course.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2014, 10:54:30 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Assessing Rondo's trade value in not certain but that is why it is good fodder for a fan blog.  that is the whole point isn't it?

  IMO it's somewhat like discussing what color the rocks are at the bottom of a dark pit. Whether it would make sense for the team to trade Rondo for X is one thing, but the arguments that we should take a bad return for Rondo because a poster's convinced that he has little value around the league is fairly silly.

Anyway,  Kevin Love's trade value turned out to be Wiggins, Bennett, and a 2015 #1 Pick (Minni then flipped the #1 pick in another trade but that is what CLE paid to get Love).  But that was only after Love did the secret handshake with LeBron and illegally agreed that he would extend with Cleveland.  Had he not agreed, Wiggins was not going to be part of the deal and Minni would have gotten Bennett and maybe Tristan Thompson plus a pick.

  Kevin Love is a good example of what I was trying to explain. Love's trade value changed, likely by a decent amount, based on circumstances completely unrelated to anything about him or his level of play. If you look at the best offer on the table for Love, one day it was X, then LeBron decides to switch teams and suddenly Love's trade value is Y. How do people account for such things in discussions of a player's "trade value"? Obviously they don't. But beyond that, they don't really know why they should, and claim that people who do understand this are dodging the question of Rondo's trade value.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #130 on: August 29, 2014, 11:36:22 PM »

Offline AngryAndIrritable

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 369
  • Tommy Points: 29
Assessing Rondo's trade value in not certain but that is why it is good fodder for a fan blog.  that is the whole point isn't it?

  IMO it's somewhat like discussing what color the rocks are at the bottom of a dark pit. Whether it would make sense for the team to trade Rondo for X is one thing, but the arguments that we should take a bad return for Rondo because a poster's convinced that he has little value around the league is fairly silly.

Anyway,  Kevin Love's trade value turned out to be Wiggins, Bennett, and a 2015 #1 Pick (Minni then flipped the #1 pick in another trade but that is what CLE paid to get Love).  But that was only after Love did the secret handshake with LeBron and illegally agreed that he would extend with Cleveland.  Had he not agreed, Wiggins was not going to be part of the deal and Minni would have gotten Bennett and maybe Tristan Thompson plus a pick.

  Kevin Love is a good example of what I was trying to explain. Love's trade value changed, likely by a decent amount, based on circumstances completely unrelated to anything about him or his level of play. If you look at the best offer on the table for Love, one day it was X, then LeBron decides to switch teams and suddenly Love's trade value is Y. How do people account for such things in discussions of a player's "trade value"? Obviously they don't. But beyond that, they don't really know why they should, and claim that people who do understand this are dodging the question of Rondo's trade value.

Partially agree with this; partially, because Rondo is not as highly sought out for a trade as Kevin Love, so the relative weight of outside variables lessen in comparison to his basketball merits/demerits.

This basically boils down to a question of subjectivity and objectivity - what other teams think Rondo is worth and what assets useful to the Celtics they are willing to give in return, weighed against his potential value to the team that receives him.

On that basis, I haven't seen a single trade scenario with the Kings so far that makes sense for all parties.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #131 on: August 30, 2014, 04:49:28 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Assessing Rondo's trade value in not certain but that is why it is good fodder for a fan blog.  that is the whole point isn't it?

  IMO it's somewhat like discussing what color the rocks are at the bottom of a dark pit. Whether it would make sense for the team to trade Rondo for X is one thing, but the arguments that we should take a bad return for Rondo because a poster's convinced that he has little value around the league is fairly silly.

Anyway,  Kevin Love's trade value turned out to be Wiggins, Bennett, and a 2015 #1 Pick (Minni then flipped the #1 pick in another trade but that is what CLE paid to get Love).  But that was only after Love did the secret handshake with LeBron and illegally agreed that he would extend with Cleveland.  Had he not agreed, Wiggins was not going to be part of the deal and Minni would have gotten Bennett and maybe Tristan Thompson plus a pick.

  Kevin Love is a good example of what I was trying to explain. Love's trade value changed, likely by a decent amount, based on circumstances completely unrelated to anything about him or his level of play. If you look at the best offer on the table for Love, one day it was X, then LeBron decides to switch teams and suddenly Love's trade value is Y. How do people account for such things in discussions of a player's "trade value"? Obviously they don't. But beyond that, they don't really know why they should, and claim that people who do understand this are dodging the question of Rondo's trade value.

Partially agree with this; partially, because Rondo is not as highly sought out for a trade as Kevin Love, so the relative weight of outside variables lessen in comparison to his basketball merits/demerits.


  Not necessarily, but that's not the point anyways. I was just giving another example of how trade values were variable and not static, I wasn't trying to say that the size of the variation was identical for all players.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #132 on: August 30, 2014, 07:59:16 AM »

Offline Skywalker2.0

  • Oshae Brissett
  • Posts: 70
  • Tommy Points: 247
How's this trade:

C's Trades: Rondo
C's Receives: Calderon, Hardaway, Pope, Len or Plumlee, 2018 and 2020 Knicks firsts

NYK Trades: Calderon, Hardaway Jr., 2018 and 2020 firsts
NYK Receives: Eric Bledsoe

DET Trades: Monroe, Caldwell-Pope
DET Receives: Rondo

Phoenix Trades: Blesoe, Len or Plumlee
Phoenix Receives: Monroe

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #133 on: August 30, 2014, 10:13:23 AM »

Offline Jesus Shuttlesworth #20

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 233
  • Tommy Points: 28
Shouldn't the thread title read 'If they were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would they want back.'? Do you actually think you are a part of the Celtics organization? Make sure to understand, what you write on here means less than nothing in the real world.

Re: If we were to trade Rondo to sacramento what would we want back.
« Reply #134 on: August 30, 2014, 10:27:43 AM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
There's little evidence to support the idea that Rondo is in his prime now, and at least one good argument that he's already peaked (courtesy of the Wages of Wins guys).
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Stumbling upon wins is also on google books, by the way.

  I actually like wages of wins to a certain extent, but it has the unmistakable "statistics measure everything important with complete accuracy" aroma to it. I'm well aware that players tend to have their best statistics in their early-mid 20s, I also realize that players tend to win more when they're older than that. They may contribute a little less on a minute-by minute basis, but they contribute more at key points when they're older, and do more things that don't show up directly on box scores. A current example is LeBron James. Many people noticed a meaningful difference in his game from 2012 going forward but you wouldn't really be able to point to a big jump in his stats. If you think that LeBron was at his best in 2009 or so then you wouldn't think Rondo's in his prime, if you prefer LeBron's play in 2013 or so you'd have a different opinion.

  But that's for a different thread.
You mean aside from the colossal jump in FG% that brought him to a Jordan-esque level of efficiency?


  His fg% is up, his points, rebounds, assists, FTA/game, WS and other stats are down. From wages of wins 2009 was his peak year in terms of WS/minute.
He's playing less minutes than he was earlier in his career though.  On a per minute basis his stats are the same, aside from FG% which is now at a historic level for SFs (also not sure how his rebounds are really down, they peaked from 12-13).  According to basketball-reference, his peak year in WS/48 was 2013 (as well as TRB%).
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale