Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up? (Locked)

[Ogaju]

Has Ibaka even made an all star team?  Yes, he's a great athlete, but he's also punked Blake Griffin a few times and those were dirty plays - no question about that.  Maybe it's me, but I don't want players like that on our team.  He also has no inside game and isn't a passer or rebounder, so aside from his shot blocking prowess, I just don't see the appeal for us.

Rondo, on the other hand, while he does have his flaws, is the most unique player in the game and is unguardable, imo.  He's kind of like a mini-Bird (even though he isn't even close to Larry) with how he sees things that no one else does, and teams cannot scheme for him.  He's too smart.  The difference between Rondo and someone like Tony Parker, who's grossly overrated imo, is that Rondo makes everyone better, so he doesn't have to score to dominate a game. 

For example, when Parker was guarded by Lebron, in both the '13 and '14 NBA Finals, not only did he fail to score, but he also didn't use the matchup to his advantage to set up his teammates.  Rondo, on the other hand, as Danny has said (and I rarely agree with him on anything haha), has been the best player in a series with Derrick Rose and Lebron James.  Game 1 aside in 2009, Rose didn't do anything much for the rest of that series, while Rondo ended the playoffs averaging close to a triple double at 6'1"   He was amazing, and the next year, incredibly, he was even better.  Cleveland's defense was arguably, along with ours, the best in the league at that time, and they simply had no answer for Rondo.  I remember those games.  The Cavs nearly went through their entire roster looking for anyone who could stop him, and it still wasn't nearly enough.  Mo Williams?  No chance.  Anthony Parker?  Forget about it.  Delonte?  Sorry.  Even Lebron couldn't do anything to stop Rondo - a trend that would continue in Miami.  The Heat simply had no one who could guard him.  Wade?  Except for purposely injuring Rondo, nope.  Chalmers?  Get lost.  Lebron?  No chance.  Rondo takes advantage of everything the defense gives him.  They'd put Lebron on him and sag so far off of him, virtually daring Rondo to take the jumper (which he made, more often than not), but Rondo used the space given to him to his advantage and still always got guys great shots because of his passing ability and smarts.  I really don't understand why everyone wants to get rid of him.  Yes, he's 28, but with his freakishly-long arms, why couldn't he continue to play effectively like Derek Fisher well into his mid-to-late 30s?  It's an honest question.  Trade Rondo for Ibaka?  Where can I put my head through a wall?

Nice post LA, even though I do not agree with everything  you typed, but this is a hell of a tribute to Rondo. How much did he pay you? I keed I keed. LOL!

[Vox_Populi]

Making the All-Star team in the West as a forward is hard as hell. Griffin, Dirk, Aldridge, Durant, Love, Howard and Davis are all probably better than Ibaka. Leonard has a good chance of making it next season too.

[TheFlex]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m5k47np

Rondo and Bass plus future 1st
Ibaka Lamb and Thabeet

I like your creativity, I think that the future 1st would most certainly have to be a BKN pick, probably 2016's (I'm hoping to keep 2017's). For those that don't think the Thunder would give up Lamb, their fans are very high on Andre Roberson's potential (http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2014/6/16/5809748/2013-2014-thunder-player-grades-andre-roberson-rookie-review).

A Rondo/Roberson/Durant/McGary/Adams lineup would be suffocating on the boards, as would a Rondo/Westbrook/Durant/McGary/Adams lineup.

I 'get' that the idea here is to trade from a position of perceived surplus (point guard, because we just drafted Smart, so in some folks' eyes that makes Rondo "expendable").

But why are you doing so to add to another position of perceived surplus (Power Forward)?

'Not crazy about this deal as proposed.

And given that OKC seems committed to Westbrook as PG (and he's a poor 3PT shooter who would not be a great space maker next to Rondo), I doubt they would be crazy about it either.

I reject the notion that the trade Rondo/keep Rondo debate has everything to do with position. The Celtics are a rebuilding team; Rondo is approaching 30. The Celtics do not have a true no. 1 option on offense; Rondo thrives when surrounded by shooters/scorers/no. 1 options. Rondo appears to want a big payday and much of that raise would be in place of money that we could ideally use to pair Rondo with a no. 1 option like LaMarcus Aldridge. On top of all that, we just drafted a PG.

Discriminating against talent based on position is almost always a poor management tactic. If we can get Ibaka we should do it not because he can play center in addition to PF (and therefore decrease his value by playing out of position), but because he's a rare, versatile talent who makes any team good even if they already have Blake Griffin and Duncan (and we certainly don't have those guys).

The idea here is to pair Ibaka with J. Okafor, Towns or one of the center prospects in next year's draft. If it means trading Sully, Olynyk, or both, I'm all for it, as long as we get fair value. If it means keeping them, fine, as long as it's part of a plan that ends with us winning a championship.

The part you put in italics goes against your alleged principal.  If it has nothing to do with position, then the fact that we drafted a PG is supposedly irrelevant.

Rondo will be 28 this coming year.  Even if Danny gave him a full 5 year contract next summer, he would only be 33 years old in the final year.   That's basically still in edge of the peak years for the modern NBA main rotation player (excluding lesser quality players who wash out much earlier).   There were 27 players age 33+ last year who played at least 1000 minutes (most played MUCH more than that) and the vast majority posted at least 3 Win Shares last season.   Names like Dirk, Duncan, David West, Manu, Dunleavy, Anderson, Pierce, Ray, Fisher, etc., etc.   The list of age 30+ players in the league reads like a list of playoff rotation players from last year.   In other words, Rondo's skills are likely to still be at a very high level even 5 years out.

So saying he is "approaching 30" is also probably pretty much irrelevant.  Barring injury, Rondo isn't likely to suddenly fall off a cliff.  It isn't something to be scared about.

The only point you've made then, that has any relevance here is the issue of contracts.   Retaining Rondo past this coming year will cost money.   But that's a marginal difference cost.  Ibaka will cost 12M.  Rondo will cost, what?  16-17M?   So, the difference amounts to a mid-level contract.   Except you have to also look at the marginal value upgrade at each position.  Is Ibaka that much of a marginal gain over what you could expect out of (the much cheaper) Olynyk and/or Sullinger?   How much of a drop-off will you get going from Rondo to Smart as your starter until Smart eventually has the necessary experience to realize his potential?

Your first two sentences are completely and utterly wrong. You said the only reason people wanted to trade Rondo was because we drafted Smart. I only said that there were far more reasons, though I never denied that one of them had to do with Smart.

Saying that Rondo is "approaching 30" is hardly irrelevant. In fact it's very relevant considering that the Celtics are at least two years away from contending even if we keep Rondo (some would argue that retaining Rondo hinders our ability to improve given his age, contract status and uncertain future regarding his knee). That's extremely important for a management and ownership group that openly desires to create a long (7-10 year) contention window (a la Spurs/OKC) rather than a 3-5 year contention window (a la KG Celts/LBJ Heat). If we keep Rondo, the latter is far more likely even if much of the retool plan went accordingly (and we signed, say, the 30 year old Marc Gasol next year).

Getting Ibaka would likely hide the weaknesses of Sully/Olynyk and pump up their trade value, allowing us to use one or both of them to secure a high pick next year and trade for Jahlil Okafor or Myles Turner. What I've proposed is part of a larger plan that I touched on in the OP, which is establishing a dominant frontcourt to go along with Smart, Bradley, Young and future picks. Ibaka alone is not enough of an upgrade at PF to push us in contention next year. But that isn't the point and I know from reading this forum that you're smart enough to recognize that. Ibaka is a huge step in building our frontcourt of the future, and such a frontcourt -- Ibaka/Okafor, Ibaka/Turner, etc. -- is vastly better than Sully/Zeller, Olynyk/Zeller, Sully/Olynyk and even Sully/Ibaka or Ibaka/Olynyk.

The same goes for your point about Smart's development. Never once did I say this trade would make us an immediate contender. In the time it will take Smart to develop, our contending squad of the future will still be taking form.

And again, your point about the contracts of Rondo and Ibaka is entirely irrelevant. What I was saying is that if we were to keep Rondo it would indicate a win-now stance taken by management. Let's say this year was Rondo's contract year and we had $20m in cap space accounting for Rondo's roughly $12m cap hold. If Rondo asked for $17m we would be down to $15m in space (going from contending for Melo to contending for Chandler Parsons). That difference in a vacuum may only be a mid-level contract but in reality it's the difference between being a solid playoff team and a championship contender. If we were to trade Rondo for Ibaka, it doesn't matter that he makes the same amount of money currently because a) he's locked up for multiple years and b) we likely wouldn't be trying to build a contender through the 2015 FA class in such circumstances.

Oh goodness.  Management is not looking at a 7-10 year competitive cycle.  The fundamental fact of the NBA right now is 4 year rookie control and 4-5 year Bird rights control.   'Planning' for a "Spurs/OKC" type franchise experience is ridiculous because that is only going to happen if you (a) win the lottery and (b) that happens in a year when a Duncan or Durant is available.   Neither (a) nor (b) are things you should 'plan' a multi-million dollar business around.   That isn't planning.  That's hoping.

I can almost guarantee that Wyc & co-ownership are NOT telling Danny that it's okay if we aren't competitive for 2-3 years.   They are going to want to start logging more Ws than Ls long before that.  That doesn't mean they expect to be title contenders right away.  They aren't stupid people.  But fundamentally this is an entertainment business that makes money by winning games.

{Aside - on that topic - I can also guarantee you that from a ticket sales perspective, there is no way Wyc would approve a trade of Rondo for Ibaka.  For good or bad, that's a reality - this is an entertainment business.}

At any rate, the trade you propose isn't going to happen.  Whether you want to view it as because OKC says , "No." or because Boston says, "No." -- or more likely both -- doesn't matter.  It isn't going to happen.

I'm going to be brief because debate during the slow days of August is apparently discouraged by some on this thread (not saying that about you, you've been gracious.). I'm not saying Danny can count on some secret Spurs blueprint Gregg Popovich shared with him during dinner last week, just pointing out that it seriously hurts his chances of achieving such basketball dominance if he keeps a 28-year old (will be 29 1/2 come 2015 payday) coming off an ACL injury that necessitates our acquisition of at least one more max-contract player. For all this talk of the draft being a crap shoot, ask Knick and Net fans how reliable free agency is. There's nothing outrageous about trying to build a team through asset-building and the draft while maintaining a frugal payroll to the best of your abilities.

My argument is more that Westbrook would help Durant even more so and be a more efficient player at SG. Now look at the 2011-12 playoffs. Westbrook played 33% of his minutes at SG, the highest percentage of his playoff career (and it's not even close; next highest percentage is 8% in 2013-14). During the playoff campaign, Westbrook shot career playoff highs in FG% and eFG% outside of his rookie year. Only his TS% was lower in 2011-12 than it was this year, which can be attributed to a far higher FT% this year (something that has little to do with him playing PG vs SG). Most importantly, Durant also found unique success with Westbrook playing more SG during the 2011-12 playoffs. His eFG% was 57%, 5.9% higher than his second career playoff high (which happened to be during this year's playoffs).

That's why OKC would consider Rondo for Ibaka (especially if Danny added a BKN 1st).

[BballTim]

   If you traded Rondo for Ibaka where does that really leave the team? Imagine OKC if you swapped Durant, Westbrook and Perk for Green, Sully and Smart. That's about where we'd be.

You mean besides filling a position of need (Ibaka can easily play C), addressing our biggest weakness (interior defense/rim protection), a cheaper contract (signed for a little over 12M until 2017 vs whatever we give Rondo), allowing more playing time to our greatest building block (Smart), and the age factor (3.5 years younger)? Yeah, we'd be in total peril.

  You're probably right, we make that trade and the Cavs will stay up nights figuring out how to catch up with us.

[indeedproceed]

Has Ibaka even made an all star team?  Yes, he's a great athlete, but he's also punked Blake Griffin a few times and those were dirty plays - no question about that.  Maybe it's me, but I don't want players like that on our team.  He also has no inside game and isn't a passer or rebounder, so aside from his shot blocking prowess, I just don't see the appeal for us.

Eh...ahead of Ibaka in the West are the best power forwards in basketball.

Ahead of Rondo in the East had traditionally only been Derrick Rose. Now maybe John Wall.

[Beat LA]

Has Ibaka even made an all star team?  Yes, he's a great athlete, but he's also punked Blake Griffin a few times and those were dirty plays - no question about that.  Maybe it's me, but I don't want players like that on our team.  He also has no inside game and isn't a passer or rebounder, so aside from his shot blocking prowess, I just don't see the appeal for us.

Eh...ahead of Ibaka in the West are the best power forwards in basketball.

Ahead of Rondo in the East had traditionally only been Derrick Rose. Now maybe John Wall.

And Rondo is better than both of those guys, so what's your point?  I wasn't just talking in terms of the eastern conference in the case of Rondo.  Imo, he's the best pg in the game.  Period; and there's no one like him.  Everyone used to say that Deron Williams was better than Rondo.  Um, even without injury, that's a joke.  If you put Rondo on that Nets team this year, despite coming back from surgery, they beat Miami, and Toronto wouldn't have extended them because Lowry has never done anything against Rondo, while he torched Deron in that series.  The only thing that Williams ever had on Rondo was shooting, and while that's still the case, Rondo isn't a coach killer, and unlike D-Will, he isn't a sieve defensively haha  

The other guy who people always touted as being better was Chris Paul, who not only is a dirty player, but flat-out choked in game 5 against OKC, and he did it in one of the dumbest  ways I've ever seen.  Stop trying to draw fouls on every play and just play the game.  Yeah, he's one of the best, but he's not on Rondo's level, imo.

Where does Kyrie Irving fall amongst point guards, btw?  Yeah, he's a great shooter and scorer, but he isn't a passer, really, and doesn't make his teammates better.  Sure, he's got some great moves and is an assassin, but he's kind of like a less-athletic, better-shooting, no defense, version of Rose, if that makes any sense.  It's all about him, or at least it had been until this upcoming season.  There's a reason why Shaq said that Rondo is, "the DEFINITION of a point guard."

Plus, if we're talking about point guards who can't shoot, Wall should be at the top of such a list, or very close to the top of it.  It's not his form (I don't think), he's just a brick machine. 

As for Rose, he's a sg in a pg's body.  His speed and athleticism are/were breathtaking, yes, but he doesn't make his teammates better and isn't even the best passer on his team, and that's not a knock on Noah (who I despise), I'm just pointing that out.  He's a ball-hog who constantly drives into the teeth of four players (against Miami, especially), promptly gets swallowed up, and then complains to the officials.  Hey, moron, if you're drawing 2-4 guys on every drive, as a POINT GUARD, guess what that means?  It means that you're teammates are WIDE OPEN, so PASS THE [dang] BALL

[Beat LA]

Has Ibaka even made an all star team?  Yes, he's a great athlete, but he's also punked Blake Griffin a few times and those were dirty plays - no question about that.  Maybe it's me, but I don't want players like that on our team.  He also has no inside game and isn't a passer or rebounder, so aside from his shot blocking prowess, I just don't see the appeal for us.

Rondo, on the other hand, while he does have his flaws, is the most unique player in the game and is unguardable, imo.  He's kind of like a mini-Bird (even though he isn't even close to Larry) with how he sees things that no one else does, and teams cannot scheme for him.  He's too smart.  The difference between Rondo and someone like Tony Parker, who's grossly overrated imo, is that Rondo makes everyone better, so he doesn't have to score to dominate a game. 

For example, when Parker was guarded by Lebron, in both the '13 and '14 NBA Finals, not only did he fail to score, but he also didn't use the matchup to his advantage to set up his teammates.  Rondo, on the other hand, as Danny has said (and I rarely agree with him on anything haha), has been the best player in a series with Derrick Rose and Lebron James.  Game 1 aside in 2009, Rose didn't do anything much for the rest of that series, while Rondo ended the playoffs averaging close to a triple double at 6'1"   He was amazing, and the next year, incredibly, he was even better.  Cleveland's defense was arguably, along with ours, the best in the league at that time, and they simply had no answer for Rondo.  I remember those games.  The Cavs nearly went through their entire roster looking for anyone who could stop him, and it still wasn't nearly enough.  Mo Williams?  No chance.  Anthony Parker?  Forget about it.  Delonte?  Sorry.  Even Lebron couldn't do anything to stop Rondo - a trend that would continue in Miami.  The Heat simply had no one who could guard him.  Wade?  Except for purposely injuring Rondo, nope.  Chalmers?  Get lost.  Lebron?  No chance.  Rondo takes advantage of everything the defense gives him.  They'd put Lebron on him and sag so far off of him, virtually daring Rondo to take the jumper (which he made, more often than not), but Rondo used the space given to him to his advantage and still always got guys great shots because of his passing ability and smarts.  I really don't understand why everyone wants to get rid of him.  Yes, he's 28, but with his freakishly-long arms, why couldn't he continue to play effectively like Derek Fisher well into his mid-to-late 30s?  It's an honest question.  Trade Rondo for Ibaka?  Where can I put my head through a wall?

Nice post LA, even though I do not agree with everything  you typed, but this is a hell of a tribute to Rondo. How much did he pay you? I keed I keed. LOL!

Haha   Sorry, I just love the guy, and he's honestly treated like the Jeff Green of point guards on here and it just makes me laugh.  The guy is amazing.  Stop wanting to trade our captain all the time!  Seriously, do people not have eyes in their heads?  He's not Antoine for crying out loud.

[TheFlex]

   If you traded Rondo for Ibaka where does that really leave the team? Imagine OKC if you swapped Durant, Westbrook and Perk for Green, Sully and Smart. That's about where we'd be.

You mean besides filling a position of need (Ibaka can easily play C), addressing our biggest weakness (interior defense/rim protection), a cheaper contract (signed for a little over 12M until 2017 vs whatever we give Rondo), allowing more playing time to our greatest building block (Smart), and the age factor (3.5 years younger)? Yeah, we'd be in total peril.

  You're probably right, we make that trade and the Cavs will stay up nights figuring out how to catch up with us.

Why would Marc Gasol want to come here next year? How about LaMarcus Aldridge? Is it reasonable to think their teams will suddenly collapse and they'll give them to us at the deadline? Keeping Rondo (if we can re-sign him in '15) means our earliest shot at serious playoff contention is in 2016, provided that we can land some big fish that offseason (not a guarantee at all).

I'll lay out an alternative:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qyjdlxq

BOS trades: Rajon Rondo, Keith Bogans, Kelly Olynyk, Chris Babb, 2015 LAC 1st
OKC trades: Serge Ibaka, Kendrick Perkins

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nubnaoh

BOS trades: Jeff Green, Chris Johnson, Phil Pressey
IND trades: Luis Scola, Chris Copeland, Solomon Hill, 2015 IND 1st rounder (lottery protected with annually decreasing protection)

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oyspnx5

BOS trades: Brandon Bass, 2015 PHI 1st (or '15/'16 PHI 2nds)
PHX trades: $6.9m trade exception

Smart/[Bradley]
Bradley/Thornton/J. Young
Turner/S. Hill/[J. Young]/G. Wallace/C. Copeland
Sully/Scola/[Ibaka]
Ibaka/Zeller/Perk/Faverani/J. Anthony

Let's assume we get nothing for Thornton/Scola/J. Anthony (and obviously nothing for Wallace/Perk).

Trade Jared Sullinger (should excel, continue to grow next to Ibaka, looking stronger in recent photos), 2015 BOS 1st (#7-10 range), 2015 IND 1st (lottery protected) for #1 pick in 2015 NBA Draft. Select Jahlil Okafor.

SKELETON JULY 2015 CELTICS

Smart
Bradley/J. Young
E. Turner/S. Hill/[J. Young]/G. Wallace
Ibaka
J. Okafor/Zeller/Fav

+ our 2015 2nd rounder
+ about $23m in cap space provided that we renounce the cap holds of Perk, Thornton, Scola, Copeland and J. Anthony, give or take $1-2m depending on salary cap rise & factoring in rounding
+$6.9m trade exception (Bass)
+ all of our future 1sts, 2016 CLE 1st, 2016/'18 BKN 1sts, 2017 1st round swap rights with BKN

[TheFlex]

   If you traded Rondo for Ibaka where does that really leave the team? Imagine OKC if you swapped Durant, Westbrook and Perk for Green, Sully and Smart. That's about where we'd be.

You mean besides filling a position of need (Ibaka can easily play C), addressing our biggest weakness (interior defense/rim protection), a cheaper contract (signed for a little over 12M until 2017 vs whatever we give Rondo), allowing more playing time to our greatest building block (Smart), and the age factor (3.5 years younger)? Yeah, we'd be in total peril.

  You're probably right, we make that trade and the Cavs will stay up nights figuring out how to catch up with us.

Why would Marc Gasol want to come here next year? How about LaMarcus Aldridge? Is it reasonable to think their teams will suddenly collapse and they'll give them to us at the deadline? Keeping Rondo (if we can re-sign him in '15) means our earliest shot at serious playoff contention is in 2016, provided that we can land some big fish that offseason (not a guarantee at all).

I'll lay out an alternative:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qyjdlxq

BOS trades: Rajon Rondo, Keith Bogans, Kelly Olynyk, Chris Babb, 2015 LAC 1st
OKC trades: Serge Ibaka, Kendrick Perkins

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nubnaoh

BOS trades: Jeff Green, Chris Johnson, Phil Pressey
IND trades: Luis Scola, Chris Copeland, Solomon Hill, 2015 IND 1st rounder (lottery protected with annually decreasing protection)

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oyspnx5

BOS trades: Brandon Bass, 2015 PHI 1st (or '15/'16 PHI 2nds)
PHX trades: $6.9m trade exception

Smart/[Bradley]
Bradley/Thornton/J. Young
Turner/S. Hill/[J. Young]/G. Wallace/C. Copeland
Sully/Scola/[Ibaka]
Ibaka/Zeller/Perk/Faverani/J. Anthony

Let's assume we get nothing for Thornton/Scola/J. Anthony (and obviously nothing for Wallace/Perk).

Trade Jared Sullinger (should excel, continue to grow next to Ibaka, looking stronger in recent photos), 2015 BOS 1st (#7-10 range), 2015 IND 1st (lottery protected) for #1 pick in 2015 NBA Draft. Select Jahlil Okafor.

SKELETON JULY 2015 CELTICS

Smart/
Bradley/J. Young
E. Turner/S. Hill/[J. Young]/G. Wallace
Ibaka
J. Okafor/Zeller/Fav

+ our 2015 2nd rounder
+ about $20m in cap space provided that we renounce the cap holds of Perk, Thornton, Scola, Copeland and J. Anthony, give or take $1-2m depending on salary cap rise & factoring in rounding
+$6.9m trade exception (Bass)
+ all of our future 1sts, 2016 CLE 1st, 2016/'18 BKN 1sts, 2017 1st round swap rights with BKN

double post, please delete

[KGs Knee]

Not interested in Ibaka at the cost of Rondo. Downgrade in talent in my opinion.

Personally, while I do like Ibaka and think he is a very good player, he is probably the most wildly overrated PF in the NBA. More specifically, his defense is what is most overrated (I do not think he is an elite defender on say the level of Howard or Noah). He blocks shots with the best of them, but doesn't do much else. Offensively, he's average.

[SHAQATTACK]

No ....not Rondo

But I swap Green , Bazz, Bogans , Wallace...etc

Unload our garbage can and picks for him.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Ibaka fills a need for the Celtics, but I don't think I would be willing to part with Rondo to fill that need.  Also because its so hard to get a hold of big men with Ibaka's skill set, I just don't think he is on the market at all

[GreenFaith1819]

No.

You don't trade an established star for a rim protector, even one as good as Serge.

[Eddie20]

   If you traded Rondo for Ibaka where does that really leave the team? Imagine OKC if you swapped Durant, Westbrook and Perk for Green, Sully and Smart. That's about where we'd be.

You mean besides filling a position of need (Ibaka can easily play C), addressing our biggest weakness (interior defense/rim protection), a cheaper contract (signed for a little over 12M until 2017 vs whatever we give Rondo), allowing more playing time to our greatest building block (Smart), and the age factor (3.5 years younger)? Yeah, we'd be in total peril.

  You're probably right, we make that trade and the Cavs will stay up nights figuring out how to catch up with us.

I had no idea the Cavs were mortified at the daunting task of trying to contain Rondo.

[Celtics4ever]

OKC would never do it folks.  People that think we could Ibaka for Rondo are delusional.